2023 General NFL News Thread

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Raider Outlaw said:
Carson took them a game from it. You don't get extra points for playing well for shitty franchises for a short period of time. Again, I love Kurt Warner, but his career is four good years (the other one was shortened by injury).
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Votes absolutely give extra points to guys for playing well with historically awful franchises. The whole Cardinals storyline was about rising from the pits of despair with Warner and Fitz.

That is one more good year than Snake had and no one here would say Stabler wasn't a valid Hall of Famer. Because he was.

I do understand what you are saying. The PFR's similar player formula labels Warner's career as most similar to Gannon, Jeff Garcia, Cunningham, Trent Green, One Legged Theismann, Culpepper, Namath, Steve Grogan, Michael Vick, and White.

Namath is the only Hall of Famer in the group and his candidacy is certainly debatable. But the HOF is more than performance. It is about story and lore. Warner's tale is a movie storyline. It became a movie. And he won a ring.

Does Warner make it without a ring? No. But neither does Snake or Namath and probably a few other guys. The Mad Bomber makes it if we beat GB in SB II.
 
Looking at Ryan's PFR.

He ranks 12th among QB in the HOf monitor with a score of 106.05. The average HOF QB is 103.58.

His career is similar to Marino, Elway, Rivers, Tarkenton, Rodgers, Favre, Montana, Eli Manning, Russell Wilson, and Ken Anderson.

That is HOF company.

But I would bar him for playing one year with Indy. That single year makes his stat line look ugly.
 
Darkenblot said:
Votes absolutely give extra points to guys for playing well with historically awful franchises. The whole Cardinals storyline was about rising from the pits of despair with Warner and Fitz.

That is one more good year than Snake had and no one here would say Stabler wasn't a valid Hall of Famer. Because he was.

I do understand what you are saying. The PFR's similar player formula labels Warner's career as most similar to Gannon, Jeff Garcia, Cunningham, Trent Green, One Legged Theismann, Culpepper, Namath, Steve Grogan, Michael Vick, and White.

Namath is the only Hall of Famer in the group and his candidacy is certainly debatable. But the HOF is more than performance. It is about story and lore. Warner's tale is a movie storyline. It became a movie. And he won a ring.

Does Warner make it without a ring? No. But neither does Snake or Namath and probably a few other guys. The Mad Bomber makes it if we beat GB in SB II.
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Stabler waited 50 years to make it and got in on the old timers ticket. We all know that was politics. Namath got in for one reason, that upset game although my dad and others tell me that he was a hell of a QB that stats can't tell you what he did. There is no comparison to the modern day game. At the end of the day, passing was easier in this era, and if we're going off of longevity and sustained success, those guys are in if Warner's in. Matthew Stafford is probably getting in if he puts together a couple of more good years, and Ice was better than him his whole career.
 
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Darkenblot said:
And didn't make the Super Bowl.
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Wasn't his fault. The defense gave up the TD in overtime to Steve Smith I think it was. Trent Green had every bit as prolific an offense in KC, so yeah, he probably does do the same thing with that cast of characters who were superior at every position group.
 
Raider Outlaw said:
Wasn't his fault. The defense gave up the TD in overtime to Steve Smith I think it was. Trent Green had every bit as prolific an offense in KC, so yeah, he probably does do the same thing with that cast of characters who were superior at every position group.
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It was double overtime when Smith scored. Maybe Bulger should have scored sooner. C'mon, he scored 23 points at home. He and his offense underperformed in that game.

Green never tossed 30+ TDs. The closest he got was 26. His best KC offense in 2023 was 30.3. Elite for a season but not historically great.

Warner threw 30+ TDs three times (including a seasons of 41 TDs and 36 TDs) and the Greatest Show on Turf had three straight years of 31+ ppg including 2000 which ranks 13th all-time at 33.8).

It returned to second in the NFL with Bulger in 2003 at 27.9 ppg despite Marc posting a TD-IMT ratio of 22-22. Then the offense fell to 19th. Bulger's best TD season was 24.

Maybe Green equals Warner's feats but little evidence suggests it. Bulger had the same cast and didn't come close. His career was done at 33. Warner kept playing well until he was 38 before the Saints Bounty Hunters ended him.

At the end of the day, Warner performed better than Bulger and Green.
 
Darkenblot said:
Looking at Ryan's PFR.

He ranks 12th among QB in the HOf monitor with a score of 106.05. The average HOF QB is 103.58.

His career is similar to Marino, Elway, Rivers, Tarkenton, Rodgers, Favre, Montana, Eli Manning, Russell Wilson, and Ken Anderson.

That is HOF company.

But I would bar him for playing one year with Indy. That single year makes his stat line look ugly.
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Is that adjusted to era? Because that surprises me.
 
Darkenblot said:
It was double overtime when Smith scored. Maybe Bulger should have scored sooner. C'mon, he scored 23 points at home. He and his offense underperformed in that game.

Green never tossed 30+ TDs. The closest he got was 26. His best KC offense in 2023 was 30.3. Elite for a season but not historically great.

Warner threw 30+ TDs three times (including a seasons of 41 TDs and 36 TDs) and the Greatest Show on Turf had three straight years of 31+ ppg including 2000 which ranks 13th all-time at 33.8).

It returned to second in the NFL with Bulger in 2003 at 27.9 ppg despite Marc posting a TD-IMT ratio of 22-22. Then the offense fell to 19th. Bulger's best TD season was 24.

Maybe Green equals Warner's feats but little evidence suggests it. Bulger had the same cast and didn't come close. His career was done at 33. Warner kept playing well until he was 38 before the Saints Bounty Hunters ended him.

At the end of the day, Warner performed better than Bulger and Green.
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The Chefs were inferior at every position. Tory Holt and Isaac Bruce in their prime versus Tony Gonzales? Marshall Falk versus Priest Holmes, lol. Come on. Again, if he doesn't shred his knee, that was supposed to be him. All that off-season, people were talking about how revolutionary that offense would be, and I think Dick Vermeil cried when dude got hurt in the presaeson because he thought none of it was going to be realized. That was the whole great story, that Warner jumped in the seat after bagging groceries and ran the offense to the vision he and Martz had envisioned with Green under center.
 
Raider Outlaw said:
That's exactly what I'm talking about. It surprises you because we didn't think of him like that, but he was very good. It's a perception versus reality thing.
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I have no horse in the race because I think the HOF is shit, but the dude didn't throw that many TDs on a season by season basis comparatively and I think that hurts. Lot of passes, completions, and yards. Kind of reads more like a compiler.
 
Rivers had a better career than Ryan. Better basic stats, better playoff record overall in a tougher conference, more accolades, etc.
 
Handicapper General said:
Ryan has the higher number though, haha.
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Even their own weighted career value stat has Rivers slightly higher than Ryan.

They even have Ryan with a higher HOF probability and career value score than Roethlisberger.

Just eyeballing but it must weigh all-pro really heavily in the equation.
 
Raider Outlaw said:
No one said he's in the same league as them, but he was one of the best QBs of that era, so he's going to be a Hall of Famer. Cam's getting in on the same standard Warner is. When he was great, he was great surrounded by mid years, and he did it with mediocre surrounding parts. Ask Panther fans about what he had around him, and they lament the line and weapons.

As far as Ice, you're the one forgetting who they were. The Falcons were the #1 seed that year Rodgers won his only title. Did it again two years later. This is in the prime of those other guys' careers, and they only have one title each themselves with what we all would say was superior coaching in Brees case for sure. He also did this coming out of the same division that Brees was in. Then, he had statistically one of the greatest seasons of all time the year they made it to the Super Bowl and had another one near identical two years later. That's wrapped around a lot of steady years of very good QB play. This isn't my biased assessment or something. He was absolutely one of the top QBs in the league for ten years at least. It's hard to change your assessment of people when you have in your head who you think they are, but you have to be objective about it when you look at it.
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If Cam gets in I won’t ever bother caring sbout the hall.
 
If Ryan thinks he's a hall of famer then Eli is a first ballot hall of famer..... :coffee:
 
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