The "when should J-Rock play" POLL

[jatfly]

I have thought since he came in I can see him getting playing time before Halloween. So that is ONE GAME.

 

[raider60]

If Kiffin thought JRuss was anywhere near being ready, then Walter wouldn't still be on the roster--

 

[Raidermania12]

If Kiffin thought JRuss was anywhere near being ready, then Walter wouldn't still be on the roster--

Thats a good point. The day Walter is traded or cut, will be the day Kiffin is putting in Russell. I dont think he'll put Russell ahead of Walter. He's already rigged him out of the qb competition for not being mobile. So i expect that we'll release Walter when we are ready for Russell.

 

[Raider Nation]

Take a look at Michael Vick the football player (not implying the off - field bull shit whatsoever)... that guy had all the tools in the world to be the next great QB (just as raw, but with much more talent than your boy Russell in my opinion)... but instead of taking their time developing him... they put his ass in wayyyyyyy too early and all his bad habits caused him to become a RB playing QB. Sure he was fun to watch and sure he made some great plays and sure he even helped them win a few games and sure you could argue he was a somewhat decent QB at times.... but he never came close to playing up to his potential. All the skeptics (including myself) will point to the Falcons bringing him onto the field way too soon.

I'd actually argue that Russell is much more of a QB coming out of college than Vick was. Vick was drafted #1 for two primary reasons -- his oustanding athletic ability and his rocket arm. If you watched his VaTech games you'd notice he already had many of the "bad habits" you refer to (broke the pocket too early consistently, long throwing motion, didn't have touch on his passes, . The fact is back in college the guy was already a RB playing QB. And that worked fine for him in college when your schedule features the likes of Wake Forest, Maryland, Boston College, etc. It doesn't work in the NFL.

Maybe Atlanta's coaching staff is to blame for not taking their time to develop him (I think there's some credence to that). But I don't think they took a promising young QB and destroyed his potential by playing him early. When they put him in that first year they knew exactly what they were getting... a young, athletic freak who needed to make some plays with his feet and not kill the team with his arm. And he didn't pretty well that year. His path to becoming a bad NFL QB started the next season when the team tried to make him into a legitimate QB and asked that he stay in the pocket. Once they limited the NFL Street in Vick, he then lost his luster.

Other than the fact that they're both black, I don't think Russell and Vick compare well at all. Russell is a better QB prospect for the NFL than Vick was simply because he can naturally play the position. Vick was an athlete playing quarterback. Russell is a quarterback playing quarterback. A more apt comparision in terms of college career/responsibility would probably be Jason Campbell. Like Russell he was surrounded by very good offensive personnel and a stout defense, so his job was to be accurate and not turn the ball over. Campbell has also benefitted from sitting his first year in the NFL too... which I hope Russell still has the luxury of doing in spite of the ineffectiveness of McCown and Culpepper.

 

[007]

^What he said^

Nice post.

 

[NIPS]

If we lose to the Titans and Texans the next 2 games and end up 2-6

It is time

 

[RaiderIVlife]

If we lose to the Titans and Texans the next 2 games and end up 2-6

It is time

Exactly. I wasn't talking about this weekend, but it's certainly time to have him loosen up in the bullpen.

The Texans will beat the Raiders this weekend and we'll be hard pressed to beat Houston (the game I'm attending BTW).

After that? It's JaMarcus time as far as I'm concerned.

 

[007]

It sounds stupid, but I really like how we matchup against the Titans.

We havent had a straight up matchup (Other than Miami) where I think we can look across the field and have a control of a majority of the matchups.

I like our corners against their WR's, our DL against Lendale, our fast LB's against VY and Huff covering Scaife.

I like our Big WR's against Finnigan and Harper, I like our RB's against their LB's and the only thing I don't like is their DL, which I've called nasty for a couple years...

They have a top tier OL, but in the end all you need to do to Tennessee (If VY plays) is stifle the run, because his arm cant beat you yet.

Im already predicting a win. Call me crazy.

 

[RaiderIVlife]

Sorry, meant to say that the Titans (not Texans) will beat us this weekend.

 

[JaxRaider]

I personally think with the JaMarcus issue, it's really not so much now about us winning games this year, but in the future. I really hope with Al's poor health he's dialing it back and not so trigger happy to give Kiffin some breathing room, otherwise this idea will never work and we will see the vets all season.

What I propose is plugging Russell in when the Raiders are in the redzone, similar to the development used with Joe Montana or even Matt Leinart this year before he went down. Only give him plays where he can succeed so he has the confidence to get it going, then hand him the reigns next season. This way, he's getting playing time and probably helping the team win because he can a)take a hit and not get hurt like McClown and b) not fumble snaps like "Babyhands" Culpepper.

 

[hawaiianboy]

A QB in a quick out, WCO needs to be able to be able to make quick reads and think on his feet, regardless of the matchup.

Where was this thought process during the Culpepper should have been starting since day 1 Jihad?...






The one thing that pisses me off is we're clearly using plan 3 in the Kiffin how to build an offense blueprint:

1) Plan 1 - Sign Jeff Garcia and bring Russell along at our own pace
In theory, you have the smart, mobile careful with the ball vet needed to allow your O-line to gel with your two young QB's behind him...

2) Plan 2 - Trade for Josh McCown and have him hold down the fort til JaMarcus is ready around the end of October or so...
A page from the Titans and Broncos Vince Young/Jay Cutler book that we effectively torpedo by forgeting to get our draft pick's name on the dotted line when we actually had some 'sign or lose millions by dropping down on draft day' leverage... Whoops!..

3) Plan 3- Convolute the QB pool by signing the big name with big questions thus lessening the sense of urgency to get your future drafted QB signed...

I know it's all retrospect now, but how much better off would we be if we had chosen to increase the offer to Garcia with some of the money Culpepper is currently stealing from us or had gotten off our ass and had gotten the deal done with Russell back in April like a normal franchise would have?...

We have the RIGHT coach and some good young talent to build around, but in addition to adding more talent, we really need our front office to pick up their game as well before we can take a step forward...

I think if we see JaMarcus this year it won't be until we show Kiff we can run the ball consistently... It'll probably be with a dumbed down playbook ala Roethlisberger his rookie year, but it's not like we're not currently running a dumbed down playbook with our current QB's making rookie mistakes as it is...

I think the more pertinent question is what we do with Daunte... Do we keep plugging along hoping he can relight the flame, or do we give Walter or McCown the shot with an eye towards next year with the theory being you need to have another starting level QB to go along with JaMarcus?... Do we keep Daunte around if he's not starting, or clip him to avoid any possible drama?...

 

[Crossbones]

A couple of things are pretty clear at this point... Culpepper and/or McCown aren't the answer for the Raiders at quarterback. It's doubtful either will be on the team in 2008. Trouble is right now we're sitting at 2-4. We're not out of this thing yet (mathematically). A loss to Tennessee and Houston and we can shelve the vet duo. I think that's fair to say. But right now the organization needs to try as hard as possible to field the best team we have while we're still "alive" so to speak.

At 2-6 I feel safe in saying it's time to get the future underway. We drafted Russell to be our QB. The Raiders are paying him $60 odd million. Time to get him ready for 2008. Real live competition is what is needed here. It's unfortunate Russell missed all that time but that's water under the bridge. Continuing to start the other quarterbacks after being virtually eliminated from the post season would be doing the team, the fans, and the organization a disservice. I'm not worried about "ruining" the young kid. He looks resilient to me. He wants to play. Let him play and let's get on with it,.

Yesterday's game shows me we still have a lot of holes. DT, S, WR, DE...(that's a good start). I don't know what the deal is with Curry dropping balls but then I guess it's one game. We are really void of speed at the WR spot. I still think we can get the running game going but it's important in my view to see Michael Bush this year. His leg has to be heeled. He wants to play. Let's get the future started soon before we piss away another year in 2008.

Like all of you the losing is just hard to take. I'm actually numb at this point. I rarely scream at the TV like I have for the last 40 years. I mean it's just numbing.

I am absolutely incensed that we have lost 17 straight division games. You wouldn't believe that is even possible in todays NFL. The Raiders have to be talked about in terms of the Bengals, Lions and Saints of years gone by for ineptitude.

I'm still firmly in Kiffin's corner. The guy needs more talented football players. I'm confident he'll get it done the way Grduen did. As Natty pointed out earlier the similarities are frightening -- which in a way is a breath of fresh air.

Week nine or ten baby...let's get the future started!

 

[Freakshow]

I still think we can get the running game going but it's important in my view to see Michael Bush this year. His leg has to be heeled. He wants to play. Let's get the future started soon before we piss away another year in 2008.

Couldn't agree more. Jordan, Rhodes, and Fargas aren't special backs. Bush may be. Let's find out because if he turns out to be a stud I'd say we scored HUGE last April and can look forward to a dominating running attack for the next 10 years. If he's not, well, it's back to the drawing board but we need to answer that question as soon as possible.

If Russell, Bush, Miller, Richardson, and possibly Henderson all pan out it would go down as the best draft in Raider history. That's a lot of "ifs"...but.

 

[Madturk]

I am absolutely incensed that we have lost 17 straight division games. You wouldn't believe that is even possible in todays NFL. The Raiders have to be talked about in terms of the Bengals, Lions and Saints of years gone by for ineptitude.

I'm still firmly in Kiffin's corner. The guy needs more talented football players. I'm confident he'll get it done the way Grduen did. As Natty pointed out earlier the similarities are frightening -- which in a way is a breath of fresh air.

Week nine or ten baby...let's get the future started!

Good stuff Bones, I'm in agreement 100%. Just seems that when the defense starts to play a little better our offense takes a crap. In all fairness though we did go up against a couple of the stronger defenses in the league and it doesn't get any easier vs Tenn this weekend. Hopefully we can go in and steal one this weekend but if we're staring at 2-6 or 2-7, it's time to go with the youth movement. Get him in game shape for next season.

 

[Rupert]

I don't think we have a very talented offensive line. These guys are the Gruden of OL's. They're okay when you put up their stats, but in crunch time, they choke (Gruden in the playoffs for us - I don't count the SuperBowl in Tampa because he turned a team with no offense and a solid defense into a team with an average offense and a solid defense - he simply took the shit out of the chicken salad).

We've got a good running game over an entire game, but on critical downs we get stuffed big time. Check out that 4th and 1 people are whining we should have kicked the FG on. STUFFED! Not even a chance of making it. Does a really special back have much of a chance when the OL is clogged at the point of attack and backers or DB's are pinching in from the sides? No. A really special back can do lots more at the 2nd level or when the defense has to throw the kitchen sink at the point of attack and leave other gaps open for the RB to bounce to. Check the couple times Rhodes bounced, he was looking straight at a defender. That's because KC could handle our OL one on one.

Other than Stu on defense I think OL is our biggest problem.

I think Kelly plays really well now that he's dropped some pounds. He can disengage and plays much more aggressively without the extra baggage. Do any of you think he chases Johnson down from behind 20 lbs heavier? I don't. 20lbs lighter might not be conducive to his playing the nose, but he's not a real nose tackle anyway. Leave that to guys like Warren and Sands (and whoever we're drafting next year). Kelly can be special at his current weight as an all-over DL.

I don't know how much we need a rush DE unless Burgess can't get untracked. Celmons has looked good in spot duty. I was impressed with his play on stunts taking the inside line and flat out beating the OG to get pressure on the QB. Impressive.

I think we've already got some speed at WR with the P-Squad and Higgins, but Kiffin's offense is more WCO than Vert-Stretch. Deep passes are built upon getting the defense out of position or biting on a play fake rather than just letting it fly. I know we've done some of that, but I don't think it's how Kiffin wants to do it.

 

[BigTron]

Garcia didnt want to come here. He wanted to win this season. I think that JaMarcus being our pick wasnt as big of a deal as people think. Garcia wanted to go somewhere with a proven coach and a team that is trying to win this season. The Raiders are in an obvious rebuilding stage.

 

[S and B Executioner]

No F'n Comment!!!

 

[SoCalRaider]

Where was this thought process during the Culpepper should have been starting since day 1 Jihad?...

It was there... I said from day 1 the only question marks about him were his knee and whether he was really a good fit for the WCO... 1st post of the thread.........

1) Plan 1 - Sign Jeff Garcia and bring Russell along at our own pace
In theory, you have the smart, mobile careful with the ball vet needed to allow your O-line to gel with your two young QB's behind him...

I thought it was pretty evident that Garcia wanted no part of the Raiders once he found out they were hell bent on drafting a QB... Can't blame him either. Why sign on as a 1 year rental when you can go to a place like Tampa and spend 3-4 years as a starter. The only way the Raiders land Garcia is if they draft Peterson or Johnson.............. but that would have made way too much sense.........

2) Plan 2 - Trade for Josh McCown and have him hold down the fort til JaMarcus is ready around the end of October or so...
A page from the Titans and Broncos Vince Young/Jay Cutler book that we effectively torpedo by forgeting to get our draft pick's name on the dotted line when we actually had some 'sign or lose millions by dropping down on draft day' leverage... Whoops!..

Makes sense... give him a full camp and preseason... and pull out the Rothlesberger blueprint.

3) Plan 3- Convolute the QB pool by signing the big name with big questions thus lessening the sense of urgency to get your future drafted QB signed...

That's a pretty wack interpretation if you ask me.... I'm not sure signing DC had any impact on Russell. The deal Russell signed was the same deal that was on the table in July... Sense of urgency... please... that one's on Russell's nube agents.

but how much better off would we be if we had chosen to increase the offer to Garcia with some of the money Culpepper is currently stealing from us

So our current starting QB is stealing money from us.... Then what's teacher's pet doing? Ass-banging Al and Kiffin with a pair of crutches?

I think the more pertinent question is what we do with Daunte... Do we keep plugging along hoping he can relight the flame, or do we give Walter or McCown the shot with an eye towards next year with the theory being you need to have another starting level QB to go along with JaMarcus?... Do we keep Daunte around if he's not starting, or clip him to avoid any possible drama?...

If it were me, I'd be inclined to run with the QB that proves to be the best mentor for Russell.

 

[SoCalRaider]

I'd actually argue that Russell is much more of a QB coming out of college than Vick was. Vick was drafted #1 for two primary reasons -- his oustanding athletic ability and his rocket arm. If you watched his VaTech games you'd notice he already had many of the "bad habits" you refer to (broke the pocket too early consistently, long throwing motion, didn't have touch on his passes, . The fact is back in college the guy was already a RB playing QB. And that worked fine for him in college when your schedule features the likes of Wake Forest, Maryland, Boston College, etc. It doesn't work in the NFL.

Maybe Atlanta's coaching staff is to blame for not taking their time to develop him (I think there's some credence to that). But I don't think they took a promising young QB and destroyed his potential by playing him early. When they put him in that first year they knew exactly what they were getting... a young, athletic freak who needed to make some plays with his feet and not kill the team with his arm. And he didn't pretty well that year. His path to becoming a bad NFL QB started the next season when the team tried to make him into a legitimate QB and asked that he stay in the pocket. Once they limited the NFL Street in Vick, he then lost his luster.

Other than the fact that they're both black, I don't think Russell and Vick compare well at all. Russell is a better QB prospect for the NFL than Vick was simply because he can naturally play the position. Vick was an athlete playing quarterback. Russell is a quarterback playing quarterback. A more apt comparision in terms of college career/responsibility would probably be Jason Campbell. Like Russell he was surrounded by very good offensive personnel and a stout defense, so his job was to be accurate and not turn the ball over. Campbell has also benefitted from sitting his first year in the NFL too... which I hope Russell still has the luxury of doing in spite of the ineffectiveness of McCown and Culpepper.

That's an interesting comparison of the 2... a lot of solid points..........

Either way, I do agree with your conclusion that at this point it would be in Russell's best interest to spend the rest of the year holding a clipboard.

 

[Limee]

I still don't want to see Russell rushed into action before he is ready, but Kiffin has earned my trust by his handling of the QB situation so far. There are still plenty of things wrong with the offense other than just decision making at the QB position. I guess not many top 5 picks get to come into an ideal situation.