Star Wars thread Episode II *Spoilers*

Do away with the spoiler tag and enter at your own risk?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 55.6%

  • No

    Votes: 4 44.4%
  • Total voters
    9
Chris_77 said:
That's just the evolution of film. Can't be mad at that, IMO.

It would be silly to make the scene worse just for the sake of matching it up with a film that was 40ish years old at the time.

Of all the rando things that have irritated me, it's fat Thrawn.
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I understand their need to create excitement for the closing, but it's just something that sticks out like a sore thumb.

Fat Thrawn was a little bit off-putting, but unless they either shot everything from the chest up or CG'd his belly out, there wasn't much they could do, as it was the original voice actor, IIRC.
 
YodasBeast said:
While I loved the scene for its chaos and action, it was irritating because it immediately leads into Episode IV, where he was very stiff with his actions.
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I think I read something that explained why Vader was so lame in his fight with Obi Wan. It was something to the effect of: he used up so much of his energy post Bacta tank during the chaos of that final scene and he never had a chance to recharge before his duel with Kenobi. Hence the much more subdued battle. I’d buy that take for a dollar.
 
boknowsvt said:
I think I read something that explained why Vader was so lame in his fight with Obi Wan. It was something to the effect of: he used up so much of his energy post Bacta tank during the chaos of that final scene and he never had a chance to recharge before his duel with Kenobi. Hence the much more subdued battle. I’d buy that take for a dollar.
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His suit's battery was in the red?
 
YodasBeast said:
I understand their need to create excitement for the closing, but it's just something that sticks out like a sore thumb.
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Disney and the fan base view Vader as this badass machine and the merchandising reflects it. The audience should be horrified by it. Brave and helpless freedom fighters are slaughtered by the score yet we cheer for the fiendish villain.

George Lucas, in a series of quotes, described Vader as a bitter, broken man who lost everything. It is why the prequels concluded with Anakin in the suit. Any other film company would have spent Episode III milking Vader murdering hapless Jedi - Lucas mentions that angle during an interview or commentary. And really, that pathetic theme permeates through the OT. Vader is Tarkin's dragon in IV, "Release him, Vader," and the man immediately agrees to the demands of a Force-less moff. In ESB, Vader rampages through his inferior offices and galaxy but drops to his knee and says, "What is thy bidding, my master?" once Papa Palpatine calls him up. Even his big opening entry in ROTJ is undercut by mention of the Emperor's impending visit. The commanding officer gulps and sweats when Vader mentions his boss' forthcoming arrival. Before that sentence, he argues with Vader about the lack of men and time (moar weaponz!) but only when Vader says the Emperor is coming does he stop arguing and switches to placating.

Those are fundamentally different ways of viewing the character. The original creator delivered a more artsy and tragic approach. The corporation cares more about selling the badass Vader because that portrayal fills Scrooge McDuck's vault. The Disney canon pimps that version with comics, the Rogue One scene, and his animated appearances. It is what fans want and brings in money.

Lucas wasn't averse to making money - no one can pretends otherwise, though, like Walt Disney, he used merchandising to fuel new creations - but his prequel trilogy, like it or not, symbolized his devotion to telling the story he wanted to tell. If money were the main objective, write Anakin as a Han Solo 2.0 - carefree and Errol Flynn-like, featuring a cool and suave Anakin - TCW is beloved for that reason, and turn into Vader by Episode II. Then, Episode III could be that bloodthirsty, Jedi-hunting movie that fans wanted. The prequels certainly weren't written with that kind of fan service in mind.
 
DiscussingFilm
@DiscussingFilm
‘AHSOKA’ Season 2 has been delayed to early 2027.

The first season released in Summer 2023.


Rosario's gonna be collecting social security by the time season 3 starts filming, if it ever does.
 
Darkenblot said:
Disney and the fan base view Vader as this badass machine and the merchandising reflects it. The audience should be horrified by it. Brave and helpless freedom fighters are slaughtered by the score yet we cheer for the fiendish villain.

George Lucas, in a series of quotes, described Vader as a bitter, broken man who lost everything. It is why the prequels concluded with Anakin in the suit. Any other film company would have spent Episode III milking Vader murdering hapless Jedi - Lucas mentions that angle during an interview or commentary. And really, that pathetic theme permeates through the OT. Vader is Tarkin's dragon in IV, "Release him, Vader," and the man immediately agrees to the demands of a Force-less moff. In ESB, Vader rampages through his inferior offices and galaxy but drops to his knee and says, "What is thy bidding, my master?" once Papa Palpatine calls him up. Even his big opening entry in ROTJ is undercut by mention of the Emperor's impending visit. The commanding officer gulps and sweats when Vader mentions his boss' forthcoming arrival. Before that sentence, he argues with Vader about the lack of men and time (moar weaponz!) but only when Vader says the Emperor is coming does he stop arguing and switches to placating.

Those are fundamentally different ways of viewing the character. The original creator delivered a more artsy and tragic approach. The corporation cares more about selling the badass Vader because that portrayal fills Scrooge McDuck's vault. The Disney canon pimps that version with comics, the Rogue One scene, and his animated appearances. It is what fans want and brings in money.

Lucas wasn't averse to making money - no one can pretends otherwise, though, like Walt Disney, he used merchandising to fuel new creations - but his prequel trilogy, like it or not, symbolized his devotion to telling the story he wanted to tell. If money were the main objective, write Anakin as a Han Solo 2.0 - carefree and Errol Flynn-like, featuring a cool and suave Anakin - TCW is beloved for that reason, and turn into Vader by Episode II. Then, Episode III could be that bloodthirsty, Jedi-hunting movie that fans wanted. The prequels certainly weren't written with that kind of fan service in mind.
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Sadly, this is far too true.
 
Nah, it's just trying to find an edgy take. It was Lucas's decision post OT to shift the focus from Luke to Anakin. The Clone Wars are beloved because they filled in the massive gaps left by the prequels. It's fairly clear even in the OT that Lucas was winging it a lot of the time. The story has been evolving and ever changing since the beginning. Also, for all its faults, Disney hasn't really done anything to make Anakin less of a tragic figure than Lucas did. If anything, they've kept pretty true to the character dichotomy that Lucas set up.
 
FUCK! I had a whole essay about about the trilogies, what worked/didn't work, and how Disney just didn't "get it" in their films and then my browser crashed. Long story short, Lucas had a vision and others helped him shape it. Disney tried to copy the OT too much for fanservice, but didn't bring anything meaningful on it's own. Also, Disney really didn't do much as far as character work for Anakin.

That said, Rogue One was fantastic.

Solo had potential, but a lot of things against it being successful. I think they had the wrong actor for Solo. Anthony ingruber would have been better (See him in Age of Adeline). Changing directors halfway through the movie and rewriting the story is never a good idea. They should have discussed the vision with Lord and Miller before they started filming, not once it was jokey and goofy.

A lot of the shows they created had good concepts, but couldn't finish properly (Acolyte), had too many goofy bits to it (Obi-Wan, Skeleton Crew), or just fell completely flat by changing the character (Book of Boba Fett).

The Visions and Tales series allow other stories to be told and don't have to follow the strict rules. They get to play and create their own stories that just have to reside in the SW Universe.

When creators like Dave Filoni and Jon Favreau, who know the lore and feel of the universe are allowed to do their work, they create good things (Clone Wars, Ahsoka, The Mandalorian) Andor from Tony Gilroy was amazing and stayed adjacent to the original story without relying on it for everything.

I want to see new and original stories that reside in this universe, but don't have to connect to any of the characters from the original trilogy to make it work.
 
YodasBeast said:
FUCK! I had a whole essay about about the trilogies, what worked/didn't work, and how Disney just didn't "get it" in their films and then my browser crashed. Long story short, Lucas had a vision and others helped him shape it. Disney tried to copy the OT too much for fanservice, but didn't bring anything meaningful on it's own. Also, Disney really didn't do much as far as character work for Anakin.

That said, Rogue One was fantastic.

Solo had potential, but a lot of things against it being successful. I think they had the wrong actor for Solo. Anthony ingruber would have been better (See him in Age of Adeline). Changing directors halfway through the movie and rewriting the story is never a good idea. They should have discussed the vision with Lord and Miller before they started filming, not once it was jokey and goofy.

A lot of the shows they created had good concepts, but couldn't finish properly (Acolyte), had too many goofy bits to it (Obi-Wan, Skeleton Crew), or just fell completely flat by changing the character (Book of Boba Fett).

The Visions and Tales series allow other stories to be told and don't have to follow the strict rules. They get to play and create their own stories that just have to reside in the SW Universe.

When creators like Dave Filoni and Jon Favreau, who know the lore and feel of the universe are allowed to do their work, they create good things (Clone Wars, Ahsoka, The Mandalorian) Andor from Tony Gilroy was amazing and stayed adjacent to the original story without relying on it for everything.

I want to see new and original stories that reside in this universe, but don't have to connect to any of the characters from the original trilogy to make it work.
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I'm the last person to defend Disney but their version of Vader isn't really inconsistent with the Lucas version being equal parts tragic and villainous and he's the one that set the Anakin centric focus in motion. He was also heavily involved in the Clone Wars in both development and storyline. It was his baby. Disney and Kathleen Kennedy killed his vision for the sequel trilogy though.
 
Chris_77 said:
Nah, it's just trying to find an edgy take. It was Lucas's decision post OT to shift the focus from Luke to Anakin. The Clone Wars are beloved because they filled in the massive gaps left by the prequels. It's fairly clear even in the OT that Lucas was winging it a lot of the time. The story has been evolving and ever changing since the beginning. Also, for all its faults, Disney hasn't really done anything to make Anakin less of a tragic figure than Lucas did. If anything, they've kept pretty true to the character dichotomy that Lucas set up.
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Edgy? My thesis is based on Lucas' own opinions.

"If I'd taken the prequel trilogy to a marketing company, Episode I would've started here [III] and Episodes II and III would've been about Darth Vader killing people. But in the end, I wouldn't be able to write movies like that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith.

I agree with many of the sentiments expressed in this thread: https://boards.theforce.net/threads...-what-lucas-wanted-to-avoid-in-rots.50045148/

Rogue One is a fine movie and the Vader scene stirs the blood. It is expertly done. In a vacuum, it is fine. When combined with the other Disney Vader material, especially the comics, a concurrent theme appears.

My edgy Star Wars take is that ROTJ is superior to ESB. Now that take will have me frozen in carbonite. :D

I enjoy the Clone Wars series. The voice acting, especially among the Big Three, is first rate. I do think it, at times, unnecessarily explains too much (the series' added information about the clones' commission makes the Jedi look even dumber) and Ahsoka - while a good character - becomes Filoni's Creator's Pet, similar to Zatanna with Paul Dini. I can't reconcile Ahsoka's existence with Episode III. It makes no sense at all that a former apprentice of Anakin's wouldn't have been mentioned. Palpatine certainly would have mentioned her as part of his plot to lure Anakin.

The series also loses some of Anakin's complexity from the movies. His voice actor was instructed to play Anakin as a mix of Luke/Han and it shows. Anakin definitely appears as more of what fans expected him to be - a swashbuckling hero with charisma.

Ultimately, I would be fine with just the six movies as canon. Six Star Wars movies. Three Indiana Jones movies. That is all we need. Maybe make some room for Rogue One and Solo and the Indiana comics. And the Holiday Special - now that is edgy! ;)
 
Darkenblot said:
Edgy? My thesis is based on Lucas' own opinions.

"If I'd taken the prequel trilogy to a marketing company, Episode I would've started here [III] and Episodes II and III would've been about Darth Vader killing people. But in the end, I wouldn't be able to write movies like that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith.

I agree with many of the sentiments expressed in this thread: https://boards.theforce.net/threads...-what-lucas-wanted-to-avoid-in-rots.50045148/

Rogue One is a fine movie and the Vader scene stirs the blood. It is expertly done. In a vacuum, it is fine. When combined with the other Disney Vader material, especially the comics, a concurrent theme appears.

My edgy Star Wars take is that ROTJ is superior to ESB. Now that take will have me frozen in carbonite. :D

I enjoy the Clone Wars series. The voice acting, especially among the Big Three, is first rate. I do think it, at times, unnecessarily explains too much (the series' added information about the clones' commission makes the Jedi look even dumber) and Ahsoka - while a good character - becomes Filoni's Creator's Pet, similar to Zatanna with Paul Dini. I can't reconcile Ahsoka's existence with Episode III. It makes no sense at all that a former apprentice of Anakin's wouldn't have been mentioned. Palpatine certainly would have mentioned her as part of his plot to lure Anakin.

The series also loses some of Anakin's complexity from the movies. His voice actor was instructed to play Anakin as a mix of Luke/Han and it shows. Anakin definitely appears as more of what fans expected him to be - a swashbuckling hero with charisma.

Ultimately, I would be fine with just the six movies as canon. Six Star Wars movies. Three Indiana Jones movies. That is all we need. Maybe make some room for Rogue One and Solo and the Indiana comics. And the Holiday Special - now that is edgy! ;)
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Lucas literally had Vader killing children and force chocking his pregnant wife lol. He's also the one that went back and replaced Sebastian Shaw with the swashbuckling version of Anakin. It was clear from the start of the prequels forward that he was infatuated with the Anakin/Vader character more so than continuing with Luke. You also have to keep in mind that his redemption arc for Vader doesn't work if he's not evil personified in the interim.

I love the franchise but he was making it up as he went. It's actually pretty funny going back and reading about some of the original stories and revisions. As far as things not making sense goes, the OT is notorious for plot holes and unresolved storylines.

BTW, Filoni's original concept for the Clone Wars had nothing to do with Anakin and Kenobi and the Ashoka character was a random Padawan until Lucas had him change it.

"Supervising Director Dave Filoni’s original vision for the series, scribbled on a piece of lined paper, involved a band of misfit scoundrels aboard a freighter and operating on the fringes of the galactic conflict. It would have included a Padawan Learner named Ashla, and her Jedi Master on assignment with the crew, working to aid the war effort by dealing with arms dealers and crime bosses like the Hutt clan.

But before the idea came to fruition, George Lucas stepped in, offering a guiding hand to bring Anakin and Obi-Wan Kenobi back into the spotlight to explore the heat of the battle with characters that already had a foothold in the war. Ashla became Anakin’s Padawan, Ahsoka. And the rest is history."

www.starwars.com

Designing Star Wars: Ahsoka Tano

In honor of the 10th anniversary of the theatrical debut of Star Wars: The Clone Wars this week, StarWars.com delves into the development of Anakin Skywalker’s Padawan, from spunky teen Togruta to formidable hero of the rebel cause.
www.starwars.com www.starwars.com

Honestly, Lucas benefited quite a bit from the writers of the EU and especially TKOTOR kept things alive and expanding the lore.
 
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Chris_77 said:
Lucas literally had Vader killing children and force chocking his pregnant wife lol. He's also the one that went back and replaced Sebastian Shaw with the swashbuckling version of Anakin. It was clear from the start of the prequels forward that he was infatuated with the Anakin/Vader character more so than continuing with Luke. You also have to keep in mind that his redemption arc for Vader doesn't work if he's not evil personified in the interim.

I love the franchise but he was making it up as he went. It's actually pretty funny going back and reading about some of the original stories and revisions. As far as things not making sense goes, the OT is notorious for plot holes and unresolved storylines.

BTW, Filoni's original concept for the Clone Wars had nothing to do with Anakin and Kenobi and the Ashoka character was a random Padawan until Lucas had him change it.

"Supervising Director Dave Filoni’s original vision for the series, scribbled on a piece of lined paper, involved a band of misfit scoundrels aboard a freighter and operating on the fringes of the galactic conflict. It would have included a Padawan Learner named Ashla, and her Jedi Master on assignment with the crew, working to aid the war effort by dealing with arms dealers and crime bosses like the Hutt clan.

But before the idea came to fruition, George Lucas stepped in, offering a guiding hand to bring Anakin and Obi-Wan Kenobi back into the spotlight to explore the heat of the battle with characters that already had a foothold in the war. Ashla became Anakin’s Padawan, Ahsoka. And the rest is history."

www.starwars.com

Designing Star Wars: Ahsoka Tano

In honor of the 10th anniversary of the theatrical debut of Star Wars: The Clone Wars this week, StarWars.com delves into the development of Anakin Skywalker’s Padawan, from spunky teen Togruta to formidable hero of the rebel cause.
www.starwars.com www.starwars.com

Honestly, Lucas benefited quite a bit from the writers of the EU and especially TKOTOR kept things alive and expanding the lore.
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I agree with most of this, especially the last line.

For your first paragraph, my only thing to say is that Luke's story had already been told and he wasn't born yet in the prequels, so he couldn't be a focal point. Each of the trilogies focused on one Force user. Luke in OT, Anakin in PT, Rey in ST. Luke was haphazardly brought into the ST for fanservice and to hand the reigns over to the next generation.
 
YodasBeast said:
I agree with most of this, especially the last line.

For your first paragraph, my only thing to say is that Luke's story had already been told and he wasn't born yet in the prequels, so he couldn't be a focal point. Each of the trilogies focused on one Force user. Luke in OT, Anakin in PT, Rey in ST. Luke was haphazardly brought into the ST for fanservice and to hand the reigns over to the next generation.
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I'd say Luke's story was just beginning. He was barely a fully trained Jedi at the end ROTJ. Lucas chose to take the story backwards rather than forward at that time. He doubled down by making his next project TCW.

Supposedly his vision for the sequels was more Luke centric and not the pathetic version of him we got but to date, the biggest miss is never giving us prime Luke Skywalker. IMO.
 
Chris_77 said:
I'd say Luke's story was just beginning. He was barely a fully trained Jedi at the end ROTJ. Lucas chose to take the story backwards rather than forward at that time. He doubled down by making his next project TCW.

Supposedly his vision for the sequels was more Luke centric and not the pathetic version of him we got but to date, the biggest miss is never giving us prime Luke Skywalker. IMO.
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I would've loved to have seen a Luke centric movie (or trilogy) with him in full Jedi master 'mode'.

As much as I love Star Wars and grew up with it, probably like the majority of people on this site. When I take time to actually think about what I like and dislike, I lean heavily into actually not liking it. I can't explain it but the overall story is weak with some cool stuff every now and then. I did love the Mandalorian, Rogue One and Andor.
 
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