Our O-line vs. San Diego's O-line

Freakshow

Freakshow

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A couple years ago when Eli went Elway on the Chargers draft, one of his reasons is that they have no o-line and basically didn't want get himself killed in San Diego. Now, I know S.D. has an all-world running back and an offensive scheme that's second to none, not to mention a poised young quarterback that seems to play beyond his years, but I have a question. Is the Charger line that much better than ours or is it just the factors I mentioned above? Take a look at these guys and compare them to our line. Only die-hard football fans, draftniks, or actual Charger fans would have even ever heard of any of these guys before. Man-for-man are they really that much better?

Left Tackle - Marcus McNeil (Gallery)
Left Guard - Chris Dielman (Sims)
Center - Nick Hardwick (Grove)
Right Guard - Mike Goff (Boothe)
Right Tackle - Shane Olivea (Walker)
 
I'd say they have a huge advantage at both tackle positions and at center. With the exception of Mcneil most of these guys were taken pretty late. I think we've bitten the big kielbasa with drafting linemen early, i.e. Gallery, Grove, Walker, Stinchcomb etc etc.
 
I think you could take any of the 31 other lines in the NFL and put them in this offense and they would've all given up at least 30+ sacks. In the rodeo world cowboys try to ride those bulls for 8 seconds. Well, if Tom Walsh was a cowboy the time limit would be 12.
 
In 2002 and 2003 the Bolts really struggled in pass pro, even with a big name coach like Hudson Houck there and with a mobile QB behind center... Brees was criticized for holding the ball too long and for forcing the ball deep over the middle... Cam Cameron was getting ripped to shreds for his uncreativity and predicatable run run pass offense....


Cameron made a concentrated effort to be less predictible and get the ball out of the QB's hands quicker... San Diego with two rookies and a throw away free agent LT goes on to allow less than 20 sacks... Drew Brees goes from a QB with less than 70 QB rating to a QB rating of 105 and a Pro Bowl... The same guy that looked so awful the Bolts used a top 5 pick on Rivers... The Bolts go from 4-12 to 12-4... Now Phil Rivers makes a seamless transition to being a starter and is playing at a Pro Bowl level... It all started when Cameron started keeping the defense on it's heels by altering his scheme...

One of the main reasons I rip Walsh now is because the importance of playing to your players strengths and putting them in a situation in which they'll have a comfort level in cannot be understated...

Our offensive line has looked noticeable better when the playcalling is not predictable, the pass drops varied and the bottom of the passing tree worked in.... When we get predictable and limit our options with 2 and 3 man routes, the defense can just sit on routes and attack the QB.... There's some irony that Bill Walsh conceived of all those slant and flat routes because the vertical offense teams were getting ass beat in pass pro by the 34 teams that blitzed their outside backers as well as by the teams that over flooded gaps with the 46... We don't have to adopt the Niners version of the WCO, but we can learn from what he did to solve the exact same problem this scheme has in pass pro....


We don't have to abandon the vertical part of the offense, but we'd be doing our O-line and QB a huge solid by doing a lot more to stretch the field horizontally IMO... There's nothing LB's hate more than having to make open field tackles in the flats... Cornerbacks hate having to leave WR's to come up and make tackles.... Wanna hit Randy Moss deep to the post?... Make the safeties have to come up and make a few plays on slant patterns... Utilize RAC guys like Curry and Porter underneath all the coverage that rotates to Moss.... Make the defense flatten out by introducing some rub routes... Move the backers around with a steady diet of hitches and curls... Stop being easy to prepare for... Right now defenses can just run bracket coverage on Moss and sell out to the QB...

We're like a boxer that just throws to the head... Going to the body consistently, and not just on the special occasion we've been doing it, will open up the head... I guess what I'm saying is the biggest problem with the offensive line lies within the conception of the offense itself IMO...I can't in good conscience point at Sims and Grove without remembering that studs like Wiz and Mosebar looked like Moe and Curly out there as well a good portion of the time... Just maybe the defensive players have gotten too big and too fast for this type of limited scheme to produce consistently... I can't help but look at what we're asking out of our O-line and wondering whether an all star line could really make it work... Wanna help the O-line out? Vary the pass drops and tempo... Don't let the D-linemen time you and get into a good rhythm....


If we follow the simple concept of playing to our players abilities and playing them in a scheme in which they're comfortable in, I think our O-line would be dramatically better.... Sure we have a talent problem, sure we have high picks that have underachieved, but that can be helped along with good game management... As pointed out, the Bolts are rolling out a couple of UFA's, a 7th round pick and a rook and doing things that protect them and help minimize their weaknesses....



JMO...
 
hawaiianboy said:
In 2002 and 2003 the Bolts really struggled in pass pro, even with a big name coach like Hudson Houck there and with a mobile QB behind center... Brees was criticized for holding the ball too long and for forcing the ball deep over the middle... Cam Cameron was getting ripped to shreds for his uncreativity and predicatable run run pass offense....


Cameron made a concentrated effort to be less predictible and get the ball out of the QB's hands quicker... San Diego with two rookies and a throw away free agent LT goes on to allow less than 20 sacks... Drew Brees goes from a QB with less than 70 QB rating to a QB rating of 105 and a Pro Bowl... The same guy that looked so awful the Bolts used a top 5 pick on Rivers... The Bolts go from 4-12 to 12-4... Now Phil Rivers makes a seamless transition to being a starter and is playing at a Pro Bowl level... It all started when Cameron started keeping the defense on it's heels by altering his scheme...

One of the main reasons I rip Walsh now is because the importance of playing to your players strengths and putting them in a situation in which they'll have a comfort level in cannot be understated...

Our offensive line has looked noticeable better when the playcalling is not predictable, the pass drops varied and the bottom of the passing tree worked in.... When we get predictable and limit our options with 2 and 3 man routes, the defense can just sit on routes and attack the QB.... There's some irony that Bill Walsh conceived of all those slant and flat routes because the vertical offense teams were getting ass beat in pass pro by the 34 teams that blitzed their outside backers as well as by the teams that over flooded gaps with the 46... We don't have to adopt the Niners version of the WCO, but we can learn from what he did to solve the exact same problem this scheme has in pass pro....


We don't have to abandon the vertical part of the offense, but we'd be doing our O-line and QB a huge solid by doing a lot more to stretch the field horizontally IMO... There's nothing LB's hate more than having to make open field tackles in the flats... Cornerbacks hate having to leave WR's to come up and make tackles.... Wanna hit Randy Moss deep to the post?... Make the safeties have to come up and make a few plays on slant patterns... Utilize RAC guys like Curry and Porter underneath all the coverage that rotates to Moss.... Make the defense flatten out by introducing some rub routes... Move the backers around with a steady diet of hitches and curls... Stop being easy to prepare for... Right now defenses can just run bracket coverage on Moss and sell out to the QB...

We're like a boxer that just throws to the head... Going to the body consistently, and not just on the special occasion we've been doing it, will open up the head... I guess what I'm saying is the biggest problem with the offensive line lies within the conception of the offense itself IMO...I can't in good conscience point at Sims and Grove without remembering that studs like Wiz and Mosebar looked like Moe and Curly out there as well a good portion of the time... Just maybe the defensive players have gotten too big and too fast for this type of limited scheme to produce consistently... I can't help but look at what we're asking out of our O-line and wondering whether an all star line could really make it work... Wanna help the O-line out? Vary the pass drops and tempo... Don't let the D-linemen time you and get into a good rhythm....


If we follow the simple concept of playing to our players abilities and playing them in a scheme in which they're comfortable in, I think our O-line would be dramatically better.... Sure we have a talent problem, sure we have high picks that have underachieved, but that can be helped along with good game management... As pointed out, the Bolts are rolling out a couple of UFA's, a 7th round pick and a rook and doing things that protect them and help minimize their weaknesses....



JMO...
Click to expand...



Perfectly written, I agree 100%.
 
I remember the first game of the season and HBoy was ranting about the exact same thing -- even before the media jumped onto the wagon. Long developing plays making the QB hold the ball was there from the beginning -- yeah the beginning of the Tom Walsh era at OC.

Nice take HBopy.
 
Sadly, I can't take credit for the Bill Walsh note... My father in law, a lifetime Niner fan and long time football coach, laughingly pointed out that they tried running the same vertical offense with Steve Deberg at QB... then added all the stuff that became the staple of the Bill Walsh glory years because they just could not protect the QB...
 
CrossBones said:
I remember the first game of the season and HBoy was ranting about the exact same thing -- even before the media jumped onto the wagon. Long developing plays making the QB hold the ball was there from the beginning -- yeah the beginning of the Tom Walsh era at OC.

Nice take HBopy.
Click to expand...
Well, if he said it after week one, it was erroneous, week one's offense was far more diverse than anything we've run since with the excpetion of the 1st half last week, which was almost as complex.
 
HB: You nailed a lot of points.

On the Bill Walsh thing, there was an additional factor that Walsh used: defenses had larger, faster, less agile CB's to jam WR's at the line and turn and run with them deep. When Walsh started routinely cutting routes shorter and sharper there was ample separation from guys who couldn't cut as quickly. The run and shoot took that philosophy to the extreme.

One of my main complaints of the Robiskie offense (which Tom Walsh took over in his first stint) was that the timing of the running game was predictable. Almost every play hit the LOS at the same time no matter which hole we took. Though we don't use delays and draws that often, it's no longer 1, 2, 3, RB. We've mixed in quick hitters to the FB, stretch plays, FB counters, and the standard off-tackle timing.

For a multitude of reasons, our passing game has had a late-developing rhythm. I blame some of it on route depth, but other times we've got Moss bracketted and Whitted covered and no-one else in the pattern, and I agree that's not the only way to help pass protection. In fact it was often the only way we helped the pass protection and we routinely got killed.

I think some of it also has to do with Walter staying on Moss too long when Whitted has run a short crossing route. A couple times when he hit Whitted, it was after he had crossed the entire field to come free under Moss. The same thing has happened when the TE has run the crossing route with both WR's deep. Last week Walter was off Moss a lot earlier and hit receviers sooner after their break. Clearly he's less comfortable throwing to spots for guys like Anderson and Whitted than he is for Moss, Curry, and Williams, though Moss and Williams have let him down at times.

Last week was a breathrough of sorts for Walter. He got rid of the ball quicker. Part of that had to do with him not reading Moss as much as reading the coverage over Moss.

With Walter demonstrating the ability to run last week's 1st half offense, it's time to bring in complements to the plays we ran well in the 1st half last week. It's time to stop worrying about whether we'll overwhelm the young guy. He's starting to get loose.
 
Art Shell just can't figure it out.

He said so himself...

really...
 
Byron2112 said:
Art Shell just can't figure it out.

He said so himself...

really...
Click to expand...
Al Davis said he made a mistake firing Art the first time.

I wonder what he's thinking right now?
 
hawaiianboy said:
Our offensive line has looked noticeable better when the playcalling is not predictable, the pass drops varied and the bottom of the passing tree worked in.... When we get predictable and limit our options with 2and 3 man routes, the defense can just sit on routes and attack the QB....
Couldn't agree more.

We don't have to abandon the vertical part of the offense, but we'd be doing our O-line and QB a huge solid by doing a lot more to stretch the field horizontally IMO...
Seems to me that using the entire field would be more difficult to defend than part of the field. Solid.

We're like a boxer that just throws to the head... Going to the body consistently, and not just on the special occasion we've been doing it, will open up the head... I guess what I'm saying is the biggest problem with the offensive line lies within the conception of the offense itself IMO...I can't in good conscience point at Sims and Grove without remembering that studs like Wiz and Mosebar looked like Moe and Curly out there as well a good portion of the time...
It's like watching Jerry Quary try to fight Ali. One dimensional is an understatement.

As pointed out, the Bolts are rolling out a couple of UFA's, a 7th round pick and a rook and doing things that protect them and help minimize their weaknesses....
Click to expand...
This was why I started this thread - man for man these no-names can't be that much better than our guys.

I've been reading HB's posts for a couple years now and the man can talk some serious x's and o's. I'd take his opinions over our own coaching staff's right about now. Strong take my man.
 
Here's a question about the O-Line:

We all knew Art Shell would return us to the vertical offense. Most of us knew this meant 7-step drops and deep routes. Art Shell also determined that these guys had developed some bad habits, most notably not sustaining their blocks. As the O-Line coach, how do you break these guys of their tendency to give up on their blocks too soon?
 
I dunno if anyone else has noticed this, but many times I've seen Gallery stop driving his legs on contact and simply fall over like a domino (this is on pass protection of course), what's up with that?
 
guys like gallery, grove, and mcquistin were lauded for having "nasty streaks" coming out of college. normally this lable is associated with guys hitting until the whistle blows, or even beyond a-la steve wiznewski. sustaining blocks was, by all accounts, their forte'. but now, it seems like after initial contact either they get knocked off balance and can't hang or just don't get enough of the guy in the first place to be able to stay in between him and the ball carrier (angles, leverages, etc.). is this technique? maybe. or, is it just a talent issue? probably a little bit of both. boothe has displayed the ability to strike, keep his c.g. under him, and maintain contact for longer periods as a rookie. sims can do it too, but not consistently. seems like the "it factor" for lineman is having this ability so some of it's probably inherent.

obviously as HB points out we ask our line to hold their blocks for too long and this has as much to do with it as anything. and, you have to consider that creating cohesiveness on the offensive line doesn't happen overnight. new guys, position changes, new blocking schemes, and other factors all play into this mess we have. i look for next year's line to be much improved (and this years' before the year is out to some extent), especially if we install a better offense and get a couple better players.
 
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