Let's break down the Quarterback situation!

Crossbones

Draft this guy!
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The quarterback! Sigh. Arguably the most important player on a football team. I'd say most often that is true. And to think, I didn't like Rich Gannon when he was running wild opn the NFL. Sigh. (What an idiot)

What are the Raiders going to do next year? Collins, Tuiasosopo, Andrew Walter???

Well first, I think the Raiders may release Tui...it's a distinct possibility. I don't believe they feel this kid is the future QB for this franchise. This most recent episode of anointing Tui the starter for the last four games and then pulling him after one start just throws fuel to the fire that the Raiders aren't sold on him. You can read that Al Davis if you'd like but whatever, that's just my opinion. Maybe they will keep him as the backup but I think with Andrew Walter in the wings and he being hand picked by Mr. Davis that the hand writing is on the wall for Marques.

So, where's that leave us? Well we have Kerry Collins. He's going to have to restructure his contract big time to stay in Silver & Black at all. He balked in New York at taking a pay cut and he was released. Will the same thing happen in Oakland? Hard telling but it's safe to conclude that he won't be making the money that he is due to get next season. But the real question is whether Collins has shown enough in two years to bet the farm on him leading the Raiders to the promised land. My guess is he hasn't. My guess is he may be gone too.

So now what? Can the Raiders find a FA QB that can fill in for 1-2 years while Walter develops to take the reins? A lot depends on what happens after the season is over. Rumor has it that Steve McNair may be a cap casualty in Tennessee. There is a big question as to what will happen with Brett Favre in Green Bay. Are the Packers ready to make the jump to Rodgers and tell Brett that it's over? Is Favre ready to hang 'em up or does the fire still burn in his belly? And if by some chance Favre and the Packers parts ways wouldn't it be the perfect Al Davis move to bring in the gunslinger for one final assault at getting the Raiders to the next level possibly even the Super Bowl in two years? Jon Kitna may be another vet FA possibility. Considering any of these guys would be a 1-2 year stop gap so I think it's entirely possible.

Trouble is all of this is speculation. We don't know what might really happen with McNair or Favre. It's pretty clear that Kitna will be moving on as he's done playing in Cincinnati.

Personally I think this is what the Raiders will try and pull off before they have to make a decision on Collins. I don't see the Raiders going into next season with a rookie as the starter from day one. As previously mentioned I think Tui's career in Oakland is pretty much done barring an injury to the starting QB.

So my take is that the Raiders wil pursue McNair, Favre or maybe even Jon Kitna. If any of those work out, Collins is toast. If not I think Collins will be the starter again in 2006 --- Ugh.

Problem #1 for any QB next year is our horrid offensive line. It just has to get fixed or at least vastly improved by the time the Raiders kick off in 2006. None of the before mentioned QB's are going to fare much better than Collins has without better protection from the OL. Saying that we might conclude that if the Raiders can fix the OL why wouldn't Collins be the logical choice. I say because his confidence is shot. Maybe a change of scheme would do him well but it's a huge gamble that could backfire. McNair, Favre nad even Kitna (Comback Player of the Year two years ago) have shown they can get the job done at various stages in their careers. I think the Raiders opt for that route unless they all dry up. In that case we'll be flying with Kerry Collins in 2006.

OK...fire away!
 
Andrew Walter - Raider Nation is high on this guy. I'm not entirely sure why? Said to be a strong armed QB with questionalbe accuracy that seems to miss high? Sound familar? I'm not ready to make any assumptions about this guy.

Kerry Collins - I supported him big time, but have been humbled by reality. Offensive line is atrocious, but KC can only succeed if the team around him is superlative. At this stage in his career, I can't see him improving. I'd like to cut bait with this guy.

Tui - Organization doesn't believe in him. So the question is moot IMHO.

I really with we would build around a solid blue chipper from a big program. Though Matt Lienert looked bad against UCLA, he has been compared to Tom Brady. I've been a poor judge of QB talent it seems, so if Lienert is anything like Brady, we better nab him if he's available when we pick.

Tom Brady is having an amazing year on an OK team. Amazing.

As much as I'd be happy with OL or DL, it might be time to build a team ala Cinci & Indy, around a "franchise" QB.
 
I've been listening and now watching the Seahawk/Titan game. McNair still has it. He'd be the perfect solution. They say the Titans own this guy a ton of money and may just let him go in FA. I'd love to see it.

Right now, however, I think Collins is at about a 7-5 favorite to be the Raiders stating QB in 2006.

As we've discussed over and over, of course, it's not going to matter who is playing QB if we can't improve the OL play by a lot. And the burning question is whether or not the Titans would really release Air McNair.

BTW, your avatar, RIVL would make a great offensive line coach starting like NOW! ;)
 
CrossBones said:
I've been listening and now watching the Seahawk/Titan game. McNair still has it. He'd be the perfect solution. They say the Titans own this guy a ton of money and may just let him go in FA. I'd love to see it.

Right now, however, I think Collins is at about a 7-5 favorite to be the Raiders stating QB in 2006.

As we've discussed over and over, of course, it's not going to matter who is playing QB if we can't improve the OL play by a lot. And the burning question is whether or not the Titans would really release Air McNair.

BTW, your avatar, RIVL would make a great offensive line coach starting like NOW! ;)

McNair - I watched him a little too. He looked pretty good to me, but knowing the Raiders, if we were to acquire him, he would "wake up old" on us. That being said, I'd prefer him over Kerry Collins or any other guy we currently have on the roster.

Collins - Well the Raiders and the offense are off to another stellar start today aren't they. I've seen enough.

Art Shell - Line coach? Head Coach? Either one would be an upgrade over what we have now.
 
Ohh the humanity

You know, as far as the Raiders offense goes, this is ostensibly the worst position on it. You could make all sorts of claims against the OL, and you'd be right. But that's a collection of 5 guys who need to work well together, replace 1 or 2 guys and let the rest gel and you're back in business. So when you've got problems in the #1 and #2 QB spots and a rookie in the #3 spot, you're in for a world of trouble.

Let's look at them one at a time.

Collins: He's got a strong arm, but a slow delivery. He can fit the ball in tight spaces and throws it deep on a rope. He doesn't have a lot of nerve, and learned late in his career (last off-season) how to throw the safe ball and how to throw it away. He can only read about half the field, which isn't bad if you set your routes up well. He makes the checkdown throws. He's not too good at throwing the ball with an arc though, especially if he has to throw it over someone to someone short. He has an average play action move, no better or worse than most NFL QB's.

Tuiasosopo: As much as people look at his performance last week and think he's through, I think there's still a lot of upside in this kid. I base this upon a lot of what I saw in the last two weeks from a lot of other QB's, young and veteran. Okay, so what's his deal? Fairly accurate in the short to medium throws. Can put a little zip on the medium throws. Can read the entire field, but is underexperienced at doing it in games. Still nervous in the pocket and runs instead to sliding, but has taken lessons from Collins at staying home and looking downfield. He's not comfortable doing this yet, and got caught last week looking too long when the pocket collapsed and he fumbled the ball. Tui makes decent decisions on the run (except when he ran into the umpire). He has good touch on the short throws (at least in college) but hasn't calmed down enough at the NFL level to do it consistently. He has an average release but that doesn't mean much one way or another.

Walter: Everything is on his college record here. He can make all the throws. He has a tendency to throw a little high on occassion, but when he's throwing in a seam deep or at the sideline, who cares. He knows how to slide in the pocket, and he can move when he has to. He has an average release so there's no plus or minus there. He's untested and unproven, much like Tui, but he showed more poise in pre-season (so I'm told).

So what do we have?

Collins is limitted, period. The only upside to having him here is that he is calm and cool in his execution, relative to the kids. He's not great when pressured, but this season has shown he's far superior to last season, which says a lot for what he's done in the off-season to improve. He can definitely manage the offense if we improve the OL and give him a guy who can get open underneath regularly.

Tui has quite a bit of upside, but his being benched this week in favor of Collins says a lot about what the Raiders think of his future in the organization. He could settle down if he is given the chance. He's a real gamer and would be an asset under center. But...

Walter will need a season or two to develop. In the Raider-way, he'll spend them on the bench. He's also a gamer and can run the vertical stretch better than Tui and his field reading and release should prove to be an upgrade from Collins.

I don't like the idea of bringing in another QB to manage this thing while Walter develops. Personally, I'd grab a kid in the mid-rounds of the draft or find someone from the scrap-heap as a 3rd QB and go with Tui for the next season and put the job up for grabs the season afterwards. In fact, I'd install him as the starter for the rest of the season.

The Raiders will most likely keep Collins as the starter with a reworked contract. Any of the vets we could bring in would command quite a bit of cap space. Dumping Collins would save a bunch of cap space, and Woodson will probably go anyway (there's a future thread) and we'll have the cap space for a vet QB and bigtime OL. I don't like the idea, but it's what I see happening.
 
Agree...but if we could somehow manage to get Steve McNair that would be ideal.

McNair could run the show for 2 years or so and then if this Andrew Walter is worth a shit he takes over and we have a good situation.

The McNair thing is probably a pipe dream. I saw him play yesterday against Seattle and he looked sharp. We're going to have the money to sign a guy like him after we lose C-wood and Collins if that is the scenario.

But sill I put Collins as the odds on favorite to start for the Raiders in 2006. A lot of things can happen but as of right now that seems the most logical outcome. There aren't a whole lot of options for the Raiders at this point.
 
I'm not much of a an evalutor of talent at the QB position, and while I haven't been completely sold on Matt Lienert, I now believe that if he is available, we should select him. I've heard some "experts" compare him to Tom Brady. Works for me, sounds like we could build our franchise around him - how novel.

I think he is pretty much NFL ready, came from a big time college program with huge expectations, makes smart decisions and hasn't lost a game in over two years. Certainly the talent around him was superlative, but he would seem to bring instant credibility and a 'winning' attitude to this franchise.

I say go for it if possible and draft O & D lineman the rest of the way. Make FA plays for Steve Hutchinson & Tony Fonoti and this team could challenge for a playoff spot as soon as next season - with the rookie at the helm.
 
RaiderIVlife said:
Andrew Walter - Raider Nation is high on this guy. I'm not entirely sure why? Said to be a strong armed QB with questionalbe accuracy that seems to miss high? Sound familar? I'm not ready to make any assumptions about this guy.

Kerry Collins - I supported him big time, but have been humbled by reality. Offensive line is atrocious, but KC can only succeed if the team around him is superlative. At this stage in his career, I can't see him improving. I'd like to cut bait with this guy.

Tui - Organization doesn't believe in him. So the question is moot IMHO.

I really with we would build around a solid blue chipper from a big program. Though Matt Lienert looked bad against UCLA, he has been compared to Tom Brady. I've been a poor judge of QB talent it seems, so if Lienert is anything like Brady, we better nab him if he's available when we pick.

Tom Brady is having an amazing year on an OK team. Amazing.

As much as I'd be happy with OL or DL, it might be time to build a team ala Cinci & Indy, around a "franchise" QB.

Exactly right. The only quarterback on our roster that I expect back would be Andrew Walter. Kerry Collins has proven he isn't a Raider quarterback, and as you said the Raiders Organization doesn't believe in Tui.
 
A quick question for those who say so: Why do you believe the Raider organization doesn't believe in Tui?

I am not asking why you don't believe in Tui. I'm asking what the Raider organization has done to give you that belief. I am not asking what you've read in the papers or on the net either. Because I personally don't see anything in the Raiders' activities that says they don't believe in him.
 
I see pulling the guy after one game (good or bad) when the season was tits up as being a sure sign that they (whoever "they" are) don't believe Tuiasosopo is the future at quarterback (so why continue with the charade?).

They handed him the reins telling him you're our guy (the starter) for the next four games and then yanked him after one game. Does that seem like an organization who hasn't given up on this guy as the starter?
 
I don't see it that way. I see that as Al Davis responding to the fumbles. Nothing pisses Al off more than fumbles. Look at what happened to Fargas, dropped down to special teams duty until he cleaned up his act. Now he's gently worming his way back onto the field. I think Al Davis's history says he hates fumbles, but that may be retorspectively myopic on my part.

I also see the reversal of Tui as the starter for the final four games as Al Davis telling Turner he was no longer in charge. And sending the message to Tui that the QB has to control the ball, not fumble it.

I still don't see it as different than any other QB situation in Raiders history. Did Marc Wilson depose the starter? No. He came in for injuries. Did Stabler depose the starter? Hell if I know, I was too young to pay attention then. An inexperienced QB has to perform well or Al Davis is going to yank him unless there is no other choice. It's no different with Tui. I think Al Davis gave Turner a short leash with Tui and snapped it back in a heartbeat.

When has Al Davis started an inexperienced QB but by necessity? When have the Raiders drafted a QB #1 and started him the same season under Al Davis without the vet starter being injured? It's just not Al Davis's way. Even with Tui, he has to perform or he won't play. In my opinion Al Davis has no confidence in you when he releases you and won't re-sign you
 
Rupert said:
I don't see it that way. I see that as Al Davis responding to the fumbles. Nothing pisses Al off more than fumbles. Look at what happened to Fargas, dropped down to special teams duty until he cleaned up his act. Now he's gently worming his way back onto the field. I think Al Davis's history says he hates fumbles, but that may be retorspectively myopic on my part.

I also see the reversal of Tui as the starter for the final four games as Al Davis telling Turner he was no longer in charge. And sending the message to Tui that the QB has to control the ball, not fumble it.
We see it differently. I don't know how Tui actually became the Raiders second round pick that year whether Gruden got into Al's head and Al gave in or if it really was Al's pick. But to me it just seems clear Al doesn't have the confidence in Tui being able to lead the team. One thing certain, Al is losing his patience.

Rupert said:
I still don't see it as different than any other QB situation in Raiders history. Did Marc Wilson depose the starter? No. He came in for injuries.
Correct.

Rupert said:
Did Stabler depose the starter? Hell if I know, I was too young to pay attention then.
Daryl Lamonica was becoming less and less effective. Blanda's days of pulling the raibbit out of the hat were over. Stabler was inserted in the Immaculate Reception game as a last gasp effort to get something going. He did. The rest is history. But let's not confuse Tui with Ken Stabler. But yes, Stabler sat on the bench for the better part of three years before he got his shot.

Rupert said:
An inexperienced QB has to perform well or Al Davis is going to yank him unless there is no other choice. It's no different with Tui. I think Al Davis gave Turner a short leash with Tui and snapped it back in a heartbeat.
That is why I say there is no way Al goes into 2006 with Andrew fucking Walter as the starting QB. He's going to either get a FA he thinks is better than Collins or he's going to roll with Collins.

Rupert said:
When has Al Davis started an inexperienced QB but by necessity? When have the Raiders drafted a QB #1 and started him the same season under Al Davis without the vet starter being injured?
NEVER.

Rupert said:
It's just not Al Davis' way. Even with Tui, he has to perform or he won't play. In my opinion Al Davis has no confidence in you when he releases you and won't re-sign you
But there comes a time when Al will say "he's not the guy"...Tui hasn't performed well when he's had the chance. He got hurt and then he played poorly. I think we might be at the junture when the Raiders (Al) are kinda finished with it. I don;t think the kid got a fair shake this year. What exactly did the Raiders organization have to lose to give him a true four game audition? But all that is yesterday's news. IMO, barring injury, Tui will never start for the Raiders.

JMO. But you asked.
 
CrossBones said:
We see it differently. I don't know how Tui actually became the Raiders second round pick that year whether Gruden got into Al's head and Al gave in or if it really was Al's pick. But to me it just seems clear Al doesn't have the confidence in Tui being able to lead the team. One thing certain, Al is losing his patience.

Yep, we see it differently. I think you (and others) are reading into it, not that it isn't a reasonable conclusion.

CrossBones said:
That is why I say there is no way Al goes into 2006 with Andrew fucking Walter as the starting QB. He's going to either get a FA he thinks is better than Collins or he's going to roll with Collins.

100% agree.

CrossBones said:
But there comes a time when Al will say "he's not the guy"...Tui hasn't performed well when he's had the chance.

That's not entirely true. But you and all the others who say Tui is finished forget the Kansas City game before the start he got hurt. Almost led us to victory on a completed pass that was 1 yard short of the end zone as time ran out.

CrossBones said:
He got hurt and then he played poorly. I think we might be at the junture when the Raiders (Al) are kinda finished with it. I don;t think the kid got a fair shake this year. What exactly did the Raiders organization have to lose to give him a true four game audition? But all that is yesterday's news. IMO, barring injury, Tui will never start for the Raiders.

I'm not sure why the Raiders would be done with him. I think the Raiders had a lot to gain by starting Tui for the final 4 games, but as I said, that's not Al's way. IMO, if Tui doesn't demand to start, and doesn't piss Al off, I don't see why he won't stay with the club forever.
 
Here's my take on the QB situation. I think Tui got the start in NY because Al trumped Norv, who wanted to start Collins down the stretch. Personally, I think Norv tried to appease his veterans (and AL) by going back to Collins. Norv realized that he needed to win some of those last games to keep his job. Collins gave him a better opportunity to win than Tui. So, I look at as Norv not wanting to help the next coach to know what he has in Tui.

Tui will be back next year if only because the price is right. He is an adequate back up. Its not broke, so why fix it. If you need Tui to start more than a couple games next year, we're probably screwed anyway.

Collins will only be back if he swallows hard and takes a huge paycut. He wasn't willing to do that in NY, but he would have also been a babysitter, so maybe in this situation, he'll do it. I betting (and praying) against him coming back.

Walter is the wildcard. Is Al high enough on him to pull the trigger and make him the starter? Has he seen enough? The only preason game I saw him play was the first one against the 49ers. He was impressive. He threw the ball effortlessly and moved in the pocket well. He showed poise and didn't get flustered when the play broke down. Obviously, this happened against the second and third stringers of the lowly 49ers, but he looked like he belonged in his first game as a pro. My guess is that there will need to be a slew of injuries for him to make many starts.

With Palmer needing knee surgery, we can pretty much count Kitna out as a replacement. No way the Bengals let him go now. Palmer will be lucky not to be put on IR to start the season.

I've never been that wild about McNair. Even in his best years, he seems to be inaccurate with his throws. He's always been injury-prone and even though he plays through alot of them, he is always playing hurt. If he's your starter, you need to have a proven backup, because he will get some playing time.

I don't think Favre will play anywhere other than Green Bay. The only scenario I see him coming here is if we hire Mike Sherman as either the HC or OC. I guess it could happen, but I doubt it.

My guess is we'll try to pull off a trade for veteran guy (Culpepper, Carr?) and then draft a QB in a later round. I don't think Leinart will be around when we draft #1, plus it scares me to draft a QB that high. There's just too much temptation to throw them out there without them being ready.
 
I didn't say Tui wouldn't or shouldn't be on the team. He has his role. I think he got screwed by not getting the 4 games he was told he'd get. Who's decision that was we will never know.

I said I don't think Al or whoever thinks he's starting material -- right or wrong I thing that's the message.

He is a valuable backup. I have always been a Marques supporter but it's become clear that he will never be anointed the started unless somebody gets hurt and then as you said Rupert he better perform quickly.

XL -- Walter is the wild card. As Rupert points out, however, he'll get a shot when somebody gets hurt or plays so poorly that there simply isn't any hope. But as we've seen this year you're going to have to play awfully poorly...can't give Collins a pass but that OL was just horrific. Seems Al Davis is giving Collins some sort of "mini pass".
 
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