Trent Brown (Fuck You)

Discussion in 'Raiders Discussion' started by DonkeyKilla, Sep 22, 2020.

  1. gst8

    gst8 Well-Known Member

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    Neither of those were first tier FAs. Littleton wasn't even signed in that first wave iirc.

    And he's still the 9th highest paid traditional LB in the league. It wasn't the contract that was praised so much as the perception that we addressed an area of need.

    Byron Jones was the tier 1 FA we went after and struck out. We don't get those guys.
     
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  2. Winston Smith

    Winston Smith Living in 1984

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  3. Winston Smith

    Winston Smith Living in 1984

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    It really depends how active we're going to be in free agency. We're not allowed to go over the cap. If it's going to limit us and we have a guy we want to sign, we're going to have to let him go. If we hold on to him until the end of preseason it's 11 million dollars that we are not spending on Talent
     
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  4. Sleet

    Sleet #2018: Return of Gru

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    Teams can always avoid going over the cap by pushing money to future years. Happens all the time.
     
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  5. Winston Smith

    Winston Smith Living in 1984

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    They can. Or they can cut players. If we mortgage the future to take a stand on a battle we cant win anyway, Grudock should immediately be shown tbe door.
     
  6. Nobodyinparticular

    Nobodyinparticular PFF Grades Can Suck It

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    Isn't cutting talented players another form of mortgaging the future?

    And isn't failing to retain your existing talented FAs another form of mortgaging the future for that matter?
     
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  7. Sleet

    Sleet #2018: Return of Gru

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    Lol. What planet are you on?

    In one sentence you wrote 4 fallacies: First, there are many options to sign FAs under the cap. You can cut, extend or restructure existing contracts, or structure one or more new contracts in a cap friendly way. It is not binary.

    Second, you have not supported that we need Mariota’s $10M prior to draft, let alone prior to training camp or even the start of the season, to sign any FA. Although you admit to two of the many ways to sign a player under the cap, you reach for an obvious straw-man and claim we now need to mortgage the future? Lol.

    Third, since when is doing the smart and right thing “taking a stand”? It’s just doing the smart and right thing. People should be “fired” for doing dumb things. “You’re fired”!

    Fourth, we win the “battle” either way under my plan. We get a draft prick now or in the future as the next time the player won’t be as dumb as Mariota if he turns down a starting job prior to the draft but will take the bird in the hand like Brown took. In contrast, we absolutely lose doing it your way — both now and in the future.

    The more you argue the dumber your posts get. Amazing how you can’t see it or like to argue bad takes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
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  8. Winston Smith

    Winston Smith Living in 1984

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    If you retain a player whom you have no plans on keeping, it limits the ability to sign other players. We have to remain under the salary cap the entire league year. Since we have Mariota, we onlhy have 172 million in salary cap to invest in other players...which is fine for now because we are under the cap for now. However, as we sign free agents, those $$$ start to go away. If we hold onto Mariota until final cuts, that is 11 million that we could have invested in players to make this team better that we were unable to invest so that we can make some stupid point. It also makes us look bad. We have an image problem around the league and holding onto a player in an attempt to cost him money will not help us. Agents see what is happening. I am pretty sure Mariota's agent has other clients. this shit doesn't play well. If you have multiple job offers that are relatively equal, are you going to work with an employer with a good reputation or one who intentionally tries to fuck with people and will attempt to hurt you financially when things don't work out? I know which I would choose.
     
  9. Winston Smith

    Winston Smith Living in 1984

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    Do you know what a fallacy is lol?

    1) I know that. I think I even stated that.
    2) We won't need the $$$ on Mariota's contract until we get close to the cap. Players drafted do not even count against the cap until they are drafted. Even then, the count for league minimum until they sign a contract. This is something that is known to everyone, including agents. As we spend our FA $$$, our bluff becomes more and more transparent. It seems that you didn't understand how the NFL has a hard cap until I explained it to you and for that, you are welcome. I like teaching people new things!
    3) I am not sure what you mean by "the right thing." IMO, the right thing is sticking to the contract...which is what Mariota is doing. Right now, the Raiders are doing the same. The Raiders can release nullify the contract under the terms and Mariota could just retire under the terms of the contract as well.
    4) I don't really see us "winning" in this situation. We may win the battle but it seems like something that will make it more difficult to win the war. Sure we maybe can squeeze a 4th out of this but we also have an image. Players can choose to play, or not play, here.

    Anyway, it really is just a difference of opinions. I appreciate that you provided your stance and it makes for good discussion but why do you seem to take things so personally. We have no power here. We are just discussing different scenarios. We can have different opinions on things and there is nothing wrong with that.
     
  10. Sleet

    Sleet #2018: Return of Gru

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    With a full slate of picks (Nos. 17, 48, 81, 122, 163, 203, 248) plus UDFA and whatever Mariota might bring, how much cap space could the Raiders possibly need to fill holes and get good players? Is Top 10 ($25M+) in terms of cap space enough? Is Top 5 ($42M+) enough?

    Per OverTheCap, as a result of cutting Williams, Joyner, Jackson and Incognito, and trading Brown, the Raiders are already among the Top 10 in terms of cap space at $31.9M. If/when they trade Mariota and assuming no significant moves by other teams, the Raiders would jump four spots (from #9 to #5) with $43.3M in cap space. By cutting, restructuring or extending a few position players, Raiders could easily get over $50M, which would rank them #4 in cap space, w/o even extending Carr, which could put them over $60M in cap space.

    So, do Gruden and Mayock have enough cap space and draft capital to improve the team? Below are the players who started at 9 positions in need of resigning or replacing:
    • LG (Incognito/Good)
    • RG (Jackson)
    • RT (Brown/Young)
    • WR (Agholor)
    • NT (Hankins)
    • DT (Collins)
    • LB (Morrow)
    • CB (Joyner)
    • FS (Harris)
    If you assume 2 in-house promotions from these four (Simpson, Edwards, Irving and/or Robertson) and 2 starters being drafted from our first 4 picks (#17, #48, #81. #122), then we should budget signing 5 FA starters.

    Below is the depth (essentially 12 players) in need of resigning or replacing:
    • QB (Mariota?)
    • RB (Booker/Reddick)
    • WR (Williams/Jones)
    • OL (Good/Young)
    • DL (C. Smith)
    • Edge (Beasley/Takk)
    • LB (McMillan)
    • DB (Lawson/Worley)
    • TE (Witten/Carrier)
    • ST (Wilber)
    If you assume 5 promotions or larger roles from these practice squad like players (Peterman, Ateman, Doss, O’Leary, Bowers, Magnuson, Jones-Smith, Seymour, Cotton, Vickers, White, Muse, Leavitt), plus drafting at least 2 contributing back-ups (and stashing or cutting the other draft picks and UDFA), then the Raiders should budget signing 5 good role players.

    Historically, a team makes about 20 roster additions w/o counting UDFA before the season, including 10+ players who never make the roster/get vet minimum deals. So, budgeting for 10 notable FA sounds about right.

    Here is a (generous?) budget in an expected buyer’s market:
    • 2 front line starters: $25M
    • 3 2nd/3rd tier starters: $15M
    • 5 role players: $14M
    • Draft class: $6M
    Total: $60M

    How to make budget:
    1. Don’t overpay
    2. Sign cap friendly deals
    3. Cut, restructure, extend other players
    4. Trade Mariota if/when needed
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
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  11. Sleet

    Sleet #2018: Return of Gru

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    What a bunch of malarkey.
    1. Our reputation will be worse if we let Mariota and a competitor screw us out of compensation for our $11M investment in Mariota last year.

    2. We are already in the Top 10 in terms of cap space right now, which is plenty of money to get us to draft day.
    We lose nothing by waiting until after the draft to decide what, if anything, to do with Mariota. In contrast, Mariota risks losing $10M. Only a fool would release Mariota now and not wait through the draft and as long as possible, including to final cuts, to trade him.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
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  12. Sleet

    Sleet #2018: Return of Gru

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    More dribble. It is not a “difference is opinion.” It is you having a bad take.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
  13. Winston Smith

    Winston Smith Living in 1984

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    Sure we can wait until after the draft. However, the top FAs and 2nd tier FAs will be gone. Some people were saying that we could hold onto him until the beginning of the Season which would be moronic. That's leaving 10 million on the floor that you can't use to sign players. If you want to build a team, you get as many good players as you can. Now if we're willing to hold on to Mariota next season, then it makes no sense to release him. We'll just keep him on the roster the entire year. And the goal is not to become one of the top teams with free-agent cap dollars. The goal is to sign players.
     
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  14. Winston Smith

    Winston Smith Living in 1984

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    Perhaps you are the one with the bad take and spewing a bunch of gibberish. It's just your opinion.
     
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  15. Sleet

    Sleet #2018: Return of Gru

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    More nonsense. We rolled $8M from last year into this year’s salary cap. Teams roll more than $10M into the next year’s cap all the time. In fact, the Raiders are among the most active teams in FA, don’t put profits first, and spend most of their cap every year to improve the roster. Your take remains unsupported.

    Mariota is an asset, like money in a bank. We paid $11M for the right to control him this year. You don’t give that right or asset away. That’s dumb. You trade or spend it, when necessary or appropriate.

    There is no real debate. There is just a good or poor decision in terms of asset management.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
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  16. Sleet

    Sleet #2018: Return of Gru

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    If so, you would actually respond to the points I’ve made, directly, rather than just engage in overly general rhetoric. Your take remains unsupported and anti-Gruock. It’s as if you want them to fail and make poor decisions.

    BTW, Raiders now reportedly have over $40M in cap space after restructuring Littleton and Kwiatkoski. That appears to rank the Raiders #6 in terms of cap space w/o trading Mariota or extending Carr and with Heath, Richard, Parker and Key still on the books. That’s another $30M in the bank if we don’t want to back-load any FA deals. Looks like Mariota’s going no where unless/until traded.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
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  17. CrossBones

    CrossBones The Black Pearl

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    Somebody has too much time on their hands. :coffee:
     
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  18. Sleet

    Sleet #2018: Return of Gru

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    We all have the same amount of time. Some people use 3:00 am for sleep.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
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  19. gst8

    gst8 Well-Known Member

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    I think you're right on this one. Only the top 51 salaries count but we still have to have the space within that top 51 to add players so I think Mariota's salary does impact our ability to sign FAs. With him sitting at the 3rd highest cap hit he's not getting pushed past the 51.
     
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  20. Darkenblot

    Darkenblot Well-Known Member

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    I doubt that really matters to players when the best contract offer is on the table.

    "You know I was going to sign with the Raiders since they offered me the best deal but they kind of screwed Mariota once and he is a nice guy so I will take less money by signing with the Lions."