Trading up.

[Crow]

I don't know what the consensus is here, but I'm wagering that Mario Williams is a pretty popular choice. I know he's my personal jihad.

Here's the problem, though. NY may let Abraham walk and look to Mario as a replacement. Green Bay may let Aaron Kampman walk and look to Mario as a replacement. Other teams may try to move up for him. If we want this guy, we may need to offer NY a pretty decent deal and at least leapfrog Green Bay and cockblock anyone else trying to trade up for him.

I think he's worth it. What say you all?

[gst8]

It depends on what it would cost us to move up. We have to many holes to fill to give up first day picks IMO. Mario is my first choice but I wouldn't be disapointed if we stay put and take Ngata or Hawk.

[Rupert]

Personally, I'd rather trade up and grab Mario.

If Al Davis wants John Abraham, he'll go that route and grab someone else in the draft.

My philosophy is to have young talent on defense and veteran talent on offense whenever possible.

On defense, the pure brutal fury of a young stud will go farther than a cagey veteran playing purely on guile. Witness Ted Washington. He's got all the tricks in the book, but he just wears down as both the game and the season tick along. Terdell Sands is not nearly as talented as Ted, but when the season was winding down he was more effective than Ted. It's not universal, but generally so.

Abraham would give us a great kick on the DL, but our biggest problems are on the OL. That's where we need solid vets to immediately improve. We could live with a breaking period on the DL. Williams will need some seasoning for sure, but almost every DL in the league rotates guys in and out to keep them fresh, you don't see that happening on the OL, so you can't cover up a guy's shortcomings there.

Bottom line: veteran OL's and youth on D (and maybe a kid at RB/FB).

[JC]

Be interesting to see if Abraham ends up here...I wouldn't mind the pipeline from the Jets.

I think if anything, we should look to move down if possible if Mario is not there, Tamba Hali, Kiwi, Huff, Greenway or Demeco Ryans and maybe another pick could really help us out also.

[gst8]

I'm curious what peoples opinions are on the difference in value between Williams and Ngata? Is it worth giving up a 2nd rounder for? I'm sure thats what NY is going to ask for in exchange for swapping picks with us. This draft is deep in LB talent and there are sure to be some blue chip prospects availabe at 38/39. Ngata plus a top LB is worth more that Williams IMO. Thoughts?

[CrossBones]

I'm curious what peoples opinions are on the difference in value between Williams and Ngata? Is it worth giving up a 2nd rounder for? I'm sure thats what NY is going to ask for in exchange for swapping picks with us. This draft is deep in LB talent and there are sure to be some blue chip prospects availabe at 38/39. Ngata plus a top LB is worth more that Williams IMO. Thoughts?NO. IMO Williams is a prize but not worth giving up a second by any means. We have to continue the youth movement on defense. In fact I love Rupert's take on drafting defense and bringing in vets to fix the offense. It's always worked like that for the Raiders throughout the years. No sense changing now.

I pray for Williams but really don't think he'll be around. Maybe a 3rd or 4th to move up if we knew we could get Williams but that probably isn't going to be enough.

As for Ngata, I've heard some bad stuff about this guy. Couldn't really say I know myself as I've only seen him play twice. Heard he takes plays off, looks fat and slow and has regressed this year. Anybody have an first hand knowledge?

As for Williams, at 6'6" 290 he is the prototype DE that the Raiders have lacked probably since Greg Townsend. The guy could be a fixture at DE for us for 10 years!

[Rupert]

I don't think any player in the draft is worth a 1st and a 2nd. When Ditka gave up the entire draft for Ricky Williams I thought he wanted some of Ricky's stash since he had run out of the good stuff. NO player is THAT good. Not a single one. I know people have that wonderful draft pick evaluator thing-a-ma-bob to evaluate the pick value, but come on, that's just fun and games. Draft well every year and you don't need to trade your entire draft for one player.

1st and a 4th? I'd do that. 1st this year and a 3rd next year? I'd do that. 1st and swap our 2nd for their 3rd? Yep. Okay, enough.

At some point you have to let it go. That's why I personally try not to get attached to players in the draft. This is the closest I've been to really wanting a player in the draft in a long time. The last time was Shaun Alexander. Didn't land him did we? So much for what I want.

[JC]

This is the closest I've been to really wanting a player in the draft in a long time. The last time was Shaun Alexander. Didn't land him did we? So much for what I want.

Mine was Ben Rothlisberger, I had a feeling but got talked out of it, because of Al not wanting to draft QB's. Ugh!

[gst8]

On a side note... There seems to be some media speculation that N.O. wants to trade out of the #2 spot. Apparently they have some financial concerns and don't want to pay that much for a rookie. Now thats what dreams are made of. ;)

[JC]

On a side note... There seems to be some media speculation that N.O. wants to trade out of the #2 spot. Apparently they have some financial concerns and don't want to pay that much for a rookie. Now thats what dreams are made of. ;)
Is Matt Leinart worth that kinda gamble? Is he Tom Brady or is he Chad Pennington? That doesn't surprise me that NOLA wants to move.

[gst8]

Is Matt Leinart worth that kinda gamble? Is he Tom Brady or is he Chad Pennington? That doesn't surprise me that NOLA wants to move.

Put me in the Brady camp but I'm certainly no expert. Actually, for the first time in years I can't see myself disapointed regardless who we draft.

[CrossBones]

Trade up for Matt Leinart?

Well of course it depends on what...again I don't think we would want to give that much. Think back to teams that have traded up like one spot and they mortgaged the future. Not want I want to see done.

Having said that I'd sure like Matt Leinart. But it puts up in the same position we are now.

So let's just continue with the Super Mario jihad! :D

[JC]

Having said that I'd sure like Matt Leinart. But it puts up in the same position we are now.

Yeah, I am in the same boat CB, we may as well throw Walter to the lions if we want to go young at QB.

Draft me some defense, and lots of it!

[CrossBones]

Yeah, I am in the same boat CB, we may as well throw Walter to the lions if we want to go young at QB.

Draft me some defense, and lots of it!Yeah, that's the problem. We can't keep drafting our QB of the future in the second and third rounds only to let them wilt on the bench forever.

Leniart is a nice thought but if Al passed on Roethlisberger I'm not sure he will ever draft a QB high in the first round unless another Elway surfaces.

Bring me Mario Williams and I'm a happy camper. A.J. Hawk would be my second choice as of right now.

^^^^^^^
Note: I reserve the right to change my mind multiple times! :p

[JC]

Note: I reserve the right to change my mind multiple times! :p

Me too, Crow and his bowl game appearance sold me on Mario Williams. But I really like Huff from Texas, a safety that calls the plays on the field. :eek:

[Crow]

Well, if we can trade Moss for a 1st round pick, I'd be content to give NY a 3rd round pick to trade up...maybe a 2nd. :D

[JC]

Well, if we can trade Moss for a 1st round pick, I'd be content to give NY a 3rd round pick to trade up...maybe a 2nd. :D


Crow, quit trying to dump Moss...seriously...

[Crow]

Just trying to help the team go in the right direction, man. That extra 1st round pick would probably score us a new safety, or possibly even a good DT.

[JC]

With TO about to be cut...there isn't a market for Randy Moss.

His season, for any other receiver wouldn't have been too bad. Yes, I agree, his route running is poor. There really isn't a better weapon in the red zone, we need to score points.

[JC]

Well, the way everything is shaking down...I think we are going to try to dance with our favorite partner the Jets.

We'll trade up and nab Mario, they'll trade back so they can take Jay Cutler. I just don't want to give up too much...anything higher than a 4th is stupid.

[Crow]

I can't imagine any team moving out of the top 5 for a 4th round pick. Offering a 3rd could get us laughed at as well.

[CrossBones]

I wish they would get this "coin flip" done so we can debate who to take at 6/7! :mad: Friggin' Tags.

The subject of trading up is getting more momentum. I wonder if there is a guy Al really covets in the top three? To me a QB like Lienart makes little sense (although I like him a lot) because we already have Walter and Tui for that matter. Reggie Bush? Well yeah..that guy might sell some tickets and put butts in the seats on a regular basis. Really when you consider trading up, Bush is the only guy that makes sense for Raiders. I doubt we could swing that as we really have little to offer except draft picks now and in the future. And I wouldn't be for that. We can't keep mortgaging the future.

Thoughts?

[Rupert]

Al Davis has always loved the breakaway threat. Bush is that kind of guy. People question whether he can be an every down back in the NFl because he never truly was at USC. That's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. All his lack of reps at USC means is that he'll have conditioning issues to overcome (reminds me of someone we already have on the roster as our #1).

Like someone suggested, and I approved, Leon Washington is a good back who can be had in the 2nd (probably) with our pick. He might not be the breakaway threat that Nap Kaufman was, but he definitely brings something that Jordan doesn't. But then again, so does Huggy, you know fumbles, impatience in the hole, poor ball security, etc.

Trade up for Bush? I'll pass. That one player isn't going to take us over the top. Adding backers and depth on the OL are important. Getting a strong safety to work his way into the lineup soon also ranks up there. We don't need to trade up to do any of that. Well, maybe Ferguson. Mario Williams would be a reason to trade up, but he's not in a priority position (what with Brayton moving back to DE we're set - right Crow? :p ).

Since QB is a slow-growth position, trading up for Lienart or Young doesn't make sense, though it might in the context of having them available for next season to go toe to toe with Walter and Tui when Collins gets the bums-rush.

So there it is. The best reason I see for trading up is Ferguson or Williams, unless we get saddled with #7 and need to leap frog San Fran for Hawk, freaking Tagliaboob.

[Crow]

I still see DE as a priority position when you consider that Burgess is still best suited as a role player and Hamilton isn't long from hanging them up. Adding a freak like Williams would be huge for what we're wanting to do on defense: Kill QBs.

It would also ensire Kelly a full time role as a DT, which I think is a necessary thing.

[CrossBones]

As for Vince young. I'm not a fan of his. He will have a difficult time adjusting to the NFL. He won't have that kind of protection and the DB's will be a lot quicker than he's used to. The linebackers will be more active too and hit him like a Mack truck. Plus I don't like his throwing motion at all. He gets away with it at the college level bugt I'm not convinced he can make all the necessary throws in the pros. Let's face it Young thinks run first much like Michael Vick and you see how Vick's star has been falling.

As for trading up -- I'm just trying (I have no idea why) to figure out what might be in Al's mind. Fact is he is more likely to trade up if he can get his man. Maybe trading up to assure he gets Mario Williams would be the thing to do. We could probably pull that off but it would cost us our second and that is a lot to pay.

[Rupert]

Crow: but if Brayton can repeat what he did his rookie season at RDE and maybe add a couple sacks, that type of pressure would be similar to what Kelly brought last season, which was a solid complement to Burgess. Burgess also showed quite a bit of growth in his recognition as the season wore on, and he was better against the run later in the season. I think he could definitely be an every down performer. However, I think the Raiders will have Brayton at LDE for running downs with Kelly at RDE, bring Burgess in at LDE for the pass rush shifting Brayton to RDE and Kelly to DT. Eventually Kelly will make a permanent move inside, but I think that will happen when Sapp is sent packing in a season or two.

I agree that Mario is a freak and needs to be in a Raiders uniform. It will increase our flexibility on the DL and keep us young and strong for years to come. It will also allow us to keep rotating in fresh bodies. With the development of Sands and the likely development of Hawthorne (yeah, I know you think he's worthless, but that should be proven erroneous this season when he contributes as a part-timer) we have enough youth and depth at DT to keep us fresh for a couple years now. With Brayton back at DE and possibly Riddle spelling Burgess we are only lacking (maybe Irons) a solid rotation guy at DE. Adding Mario would give us a solid starter and allow our decent guys to be rotational depth (which would be a huge improvement).

[Rupert]

Bones: I think of Kosar when I think of Vince Young's throwing motion. I don't care as much what it looks like as what the results are. But I agree, Young is another Culpepper or McNair (Vick is a MUCH better runner than either of those guys were, but his problems are similar) who will make an immediate impact because of their legs, but will have a difficult transition because of their under-developed skills as a passer (not just a thrower). The talent level in the NFL will slow those legs down quickly if he relies on them too much. He'll have to do what McNabb did if he wants to be successful: plan to remove the running from your game and develop your skills as a passer, use the running as a last resort or when there's just too much open field to be ignored.

[Crow]

Give 'em Moss. :D

[Rupert]

You're making me weep with all the love you give Moss.

I never wanted him here. He's more mature than the guy I expected, but his less-than 100% approach to the game is rubbing off on the wrong people. I'd rather get a healthy Curry back and put Morant out there more often because I know Porter will respond to big Art by either putting out or getting out. A resolution on that guy is imminent.

[Crow]

Crow: but if Brayton can repeat what he did his rookie season at RDE and maybe add a couple sacks, that type of pressure would be similar to what Kelly brought last season, which was a solid complement to Burgess. Burgess also showed quite a bit of growth in his recognition as the season wore on, and he was better against the run later in the season. I think he could definitely be an every down performer. However, I think the Raiders will have Brayton at LDE for running downs with Kelly at RDE, bring Burgess in at LDE for the pass rush shifting Brayton to RDE and Kelly to DT. Eventually Kelly will make a permanent move inside, but I think that will happen when Sapp is sent packing in a season or two.

Sounds entirely likely, but that D-line allows for offenses to do a lot of passing on running downs. A line of Brayton, Ted, Sapp, and Kelly should be studly against the run, but they're just not going to generate much of a pass rush unless Millard can really pull another miracle out of his ass. I do believe he has that miracle stuffed up there somewhere, mind you. I'm just not certain he can dig it out this year with a guy like Kelly. I just can't see him ever being more than a run stopper as a DE.

I honestly like Kelly as a NT more than DE...but that's just me. As I was discussing with TommyGirl, Chicago'ssmaller, more athletic D-line has me really intrigued. I know Al likes to have his DTs on the larger side, so I'm not getting excited about the possibility of following the Bears' lead. I'm just saying that I really like thei approach.

I agree that Mario is a freak and needs to be in a Raiders uniform. It will increase our flexibility on the DL and keep us young and strong for years to come. It will also allow us to keep rotating in fresh bodies.

With the ground games in this division, that's a must for us.

With the development of Sands

He surprised me some last year. I've personally upgraded him from career #4 DT to career #3. ;)

and the likely development of Hawthorne (yeah, I know you think he's worthless, but that should be proven erroneous this season when he contributes as a part-timer)

*snickers*

When "Fluff" actually does something of note, then maybe I'll feel less foolish for having burned a 5th round pick on the guy. A pick that could have landed us a really good FB this year, btw.

we have enough youth and depth at DT to keep us fresh for a couple years now.

Debatable.

With Brayton back at DE and possibly Riddle spelling Burgess we are only lacking (maybe Irons) a solid rotation guy at DE. Adding Mario would give us a solid starter and allow our decent guys to be rotational depth (which would be a huge improvement).

I can also see Mario sliding inside on some passing downs to take advantage of weaker, slow-footed guards. I would hope so, anyway. Granted, he could learn a thing or two by going one on one with the elite LTs of the league...but throwing him a bone every now and then would be a great way to fire him up and help our defense.

[Crow]

You're making me weep with all the love you give Moss.

I never wanted him here. He's more mature than the guy I expected, but his less-than 100% approach to the game is rubbing off on the wrong people. I'd rather get a healthy Curry back and put Morant out there more often because I know Porter will respond to big Art by either putting out or getting out. A resolution on that guy is imminent.

Porter really did seem to be emulating Moss' lack of interest in route running, didn't he? Crying shame.

A healthy Curry, along with Gabriel, Morant, Francis, and Whitted. Good enough. Hell, more than good enough if we build up this "tough" and "nasty" ground game that we're being promised.

[JC]

I dunno...I still think Moss is the only receiving threat on the roster than can get into the end zone and score TD's.

I really don't want to lose him, he hasn't done anything wrong, his poor season was due to Kerry Collins more than anything. I agree that he doesn't run clean routes, but the man just gets open. What else do you want a receiver to do? He's supposed to improvise!

[CrossBones]

A healthy Curry, along with Gabriel, Morant, Francis, and Whitted. Good enough. Hell, more than good enough if we build up this "tough" and "nasty" ground game that we're being promised.Exactly. Wouldn't you take that bunch over that group in Seattle? And they went to the Bowl. We have plenty of talent at WR. I'd like to see Shell kick Moss in the ass and Porter too. I'm not too much of a Porter fan these days except for his potential (and that and a dime wil get 'ya a cup of coffee). He runs his mouth but rarely backs it up on the field on Sunday afternoon.

[JC]

BTW-I think healthy Curry is out of the question...same achilles twice, that can't bode well.

[Rupert]

I honestly like Kelly as a NT more than DE...but that's just me. As I was discussing with TommyGirl, Chicago'ssmaller, more athletic D-line has me really intrigued. I know Al likes to have his DTs on the larger side, so I'm not getting excited about the possibility of following the Bears' lead. I'm just saying that I really like thei approach.
Kelly as an NT?!?!? I guess you do like the smaller DL. Holy crap! Well, granted, I'm not personally a fan of having that guy who takes the doubleteam by default. I'd rather have two penetrating DT's; unfortunately, that requires a Mike who can shed a Center.

I like Kelly as a DE (not necessarily better than a DT but about equally right now) because he can bull rush an OT as well as pull the inside move which Brayton and Grant and Hamilton haven't been able to do. Additionally, none of those guys can get around the corner, so that move is moot, but a solid upfield push with an inside move does two things, it walls off the QB from escape and allows you to grab him if he gets pushed your way (as evidenced by Kelly's higher sack total than Brayton's at the same position - yeah, I know, Brayton didn't have the kind of LDE that Kelly had, I know).
When "Fluff" actually does something of note, then maybe I'll feel less foolish for having burned a 5th round pick on the guy. A pick that could have landed us a really good FB this year, btw.
I personally think the guy has quite a bit of upside. However, he's also a penetrating DT, not a NT, which means he'll have to develop or we'll have to go away from using an NT. Hmmmm. Yeah, I don't know what it is about ignoring the FB position, that's a fatal flaw in my opinion. Even if you think it's easy to pick up a guy who can handle the position, it makes sense to have one or two on the roster, not a RB/FB tweener and a bunch of TE/FB tweeners.

[Rupert]

BTW-I think healthy Curry is out of the question...same achilles twice, that can't bode well.
Well, the problem is he wasn't healed. If re-injuring it is a problem, why hasn't his left given out? It was injured before too, but it didn't snap again on him. Sounds like he healed it before playing on it.

The kid is a natural athlete like Tim Brown was. He'll come around if he does it right and resists the temptation of getting on the field too soon. It's hard for a young guy with a lot of competition around him to be patient.

[Rupert]

Porter really did seem to be emulating Moss' lack of interest in route running, didn't he? Crying shame.

A healthy Curry, along with Gabriel, Morant, Francis, and Whitted. Good enough. Hell, more than good enough if we build up this "tough" and "nasty" ground game that we're being promised.

Without question.