Jared Veldheer's growing pains worth it?

[Raidermania12]

Q: What did you think of Veldheer on film?

Cable: Very competitive. He battled and battled and battled. There were some timing issues with the whole offense, and that starts with the snap. Those are some things to work on.
So are people here willing to risk possible games working Rookie kinks out or not?

[Postmaster]

So are people here willing to risk possible games working Rookie kinks out or not?

I will let you know at 7:30EST on Sunday.

[Bayareaplaya]

Yes it's worth the growing pains. We've been horrible since robbins left.

[RaiderRobert]

I say yes he is worth it. Partly because we need to stick with the decision we made. To pull him at this point would be detrimental to his development. And our only other option is not any better. Makes more sense to just roll with it now. Hopefully he is as smart as I think he is, and he learns and grows from the experience. It would sure be nice to have a big strong smart guy at Center for a change. Let him stay, and support him 100%...

[Postmaster]

How short is the lease?

Any money down?

[Crow]

It would be different if Veldheer had been there from Day 1, learning. He hasn't, and he's going to contribute to getting the QBs (yes, more than one) killed.

The Patriots hope he plays there all year.

[Raidermania12]

I say yes he is worth it. Partly because we need to stick with the decision we made. To pull him at this point would be detrimental to his development.
His development at Center? IMO he's a better LT, and if you wanted to gamble on him starting, that makes more sense especially after this game. I honestly dont care about shooting down his development at center since so far he sucks at it.


Hopefully he is as smart as I think he is, and he learns and grows from the experience.
He isn't smart enough to make the reads and adjustments on the multitude of blitzes we are going to purposely see with him at center. Other teams see that shit, and you can bet they'll be jumping on his slow snap and mixing up blitzes on the side opposite of Cooper Carlisle(who apparently is in charge of the reads for Veldheer) putting us at a consistent disadvantage until Veldheer catches up. I hope you understand and accept that reality.

It would sure be nice to have a big strong smart guy at Center for a change.
not 6ft 8in way too tall big, not "i can't make the reads yet" smart, but yea he is strong.

Let him stay, and support him 100%...
Fuck him, i'm worried about the Raiders sacrificing games for the guy. If he was making the reads, knowing the snap counts, and snaping the ball faster I'd be ok with this logic. But I saw a guy who looked more raw that Bruce Campbell at RG out there. And if thats the motto then throw bruce out there and have Gallery make the reads at LG...lol.. I like the power and athleticism of both Veldheer and Campbell. But this is a botch job, and a late one at that. Halfway through the preseason only one game deep you decide to start a development at Center? Stupid IMO. I'd accept Bruce Campbell at LT and Veldheer at RT where they can play comfortable and learn faster, we may have fucked the pooch on that and I'm worried that it'll be our downfall.

[Madturk]

If he was surrounded by some decent OL, I might let it ride for a game or two. But we have basically dog shit for an OL right now. We can't afford to start the season 0-3, or 0-4. Satele will get trucked at center but at least our OL will be in synch. Outside of QB and CB, it has to be one of the toughest positions to come into as a rookie, especially for a player who hasn't played the position much.

I'd let him take snaps at both center and LT as he will eventually get his chance to start again. I'd rather he takes his lumps gradually then throw him to the wolves right away.

[BigPoppaPump]

Our OL has sucked for years and it is really the reason we have had this run. Look back to all the years we have been good and we had beastly lines on O.

we need to change this before we have a hope of getting better. The C and LT are key to good line play imo. If he is going to be our C, then we take our lumps and let him grow. It is not like we really are a playoff team. I say we go with the youth movement and let the cards fall where they do.

Now the one thing I would expect is improvement as the season progresses. This is no different, imo, then if you start a rook QB. Expect ugly that should turn into serviceable by year end. Then next year you build on it.

[cruedi]

Veldheer may be our best lineman. He needs to be starting, there's no way we're pulling Henderson or moving him to right tackle so although I believe those are better options it's not happening.

I remember people on hear last season claiming Satele's head bob's were giving away the snap count and he was getting run over. So if Veldheer is giving away the snap count and not getting run over it's a plus.

I'd hate to see him sit on the bench for 2 or 3 years like we've done with Mike Bush and then have people wondering how well he can play.

It would be great if we signed a good vet center to work with him, but that's obviously not happening. Playing him is our best option.

[DonkeyKilla]

i'd roll with him- starting off in tenessee was about as bad a position you could put the kid in. He sure is fuckin strong though. i did not see the middle of the line collapsing. He may get better on all the line calls and snapping the ball with another week of practice.
Cable is an idiot for making this change at the last minute though and also for sitting him against seattle in pre- should have let him play a game and get more comfortable.

[Madturk]

Cable is an idiot for making this change at the last minute though and also for sitting him against seattle in pre- should have let him play a game and get more comfortable.

Yeah that was a head scratcher. Off nearly two weeks before our opener, not exactly giving him much valued reps. Really tough situation for the kid to be coming into.

[RaiderJF]

The key issue is simply -- we don't have a better option at C. Yes, there are "risks" at starting Valdheer at the pivot, but those risks are less than the known deficiencies of Satele. The kid made mistakes, but he will learn from them and be a better player each week. With Satele, at this point we know what we have with him and its not good enough. Let's get real here for a minute, this was Valdheer's first or second start at center on the road ever (in his pro or college career) at one of the toughest road stadiums to play at in the league and he barely got any reps at the position until the last three weeks of training camp. If anything, I agree with others that his showing in Tenn gets largely placed on the shoulders of the coaching staff that didn't have him prepared and should have had him playing in that 4th preseason game (hell, if its worth the risk to play the $60MM man Sam Bradford in the 4th preseason game to get him ready, why wouldn't it be worth the risk to play our third round tackle who is learning to play a new position?????). Gotta cut this kid some slack and have some patience (its not his fault that we have lost patience with this organization). He has big league upside. Can the same be said for CC, Super Mario, or L Walker?????

[Postmaster]

Yeah that was a head scratcher. Off nearly two weeks before our opener, not exactly giving him much valued reps. Really tough situation for the kid to be coming into.

Up until Satele got hurt in the Bears game I think it was still up in the air where Veldheer would play (OT or C)

Satele's injury made the decision a bit easier easy and after watching the film on the 9er game the staff came to the conclusion to start Veldheer.

If Satele started against the Titans would we have won? I doubt it. The line may not have looked as discombobulated but we would of lost no doubt.

So is a blowout loss worse than a 10 point loss if we found our C of the future?

I would say no.

My biggest concern if Veldheer continues to man the middle is the 3-4 teams. That will be a whole new wrinkle thrown at him.

[CrossBones]

discombobulated:rotf:

Always loved that word.

Lampshade = discombobulated

[Raidermania12]

If Satele started against the Titans would we have won? I doubt it. The line may not have looked as discombobulated but we would of lost no doubt.
The Line being in a communication mess was a MAJOR factor in the loss. I keep catching this Veldheer is the best option nonsense when he's raw as you get and unproven. I at least know we'll be mediocre at least with Satele out there. Being able to push your man better than the other guy doesn't make you a better center if you snap slow as a snail, have no knowledge of how to read blitzes and overloads, and have absolutely no timing with your QB. This isnt a test out year, not with Aso and Seymour in their last year, Both our two QB's on the depth chart only around for a couple years, and a Head Coach on thin ice after almost being fired at last season's end.

So is a blowout loss worse than a 10 point loss if we found our C of the future?

I would say no.

That's not a logical outcome imo. Titans made enough early mistakes where if we even had some average blocking we woulda been up on them especially after that Young fumble. There woulda been much more urgency and more time to throw(maybe not alot, but more than the .5 seconds I saw at times on missed overloads).

At the end of the day to each his own, but this 6ft 8in no experience Veldheer at center thing smells shittier than starting Satele, Signing Grove, or Signing Hartwig even to me personally and Sunday his performance as a Center(not as a blocker, as a blocker he was ok, which is why he should be our starting LT) did nothing to help that. If it were a smart move, I doubt he'd be the only super tall Center in the NFL. It's crazy how this team has screwed up naturally solid draft picks by moving them way out of position.

[boknowsvt]

If we were in full rebuild mode (which Al never does) I would say let him learn on the fly. However, we traded a first round pick for an aging vet in Seymour and signed John Henderson to win now. I would honestly let Satele play for the year and have the rookie run with the second team for now.

[Postmaster]

The Line being in a communication mess was a MAJOR factor in the loss. I keep catching this Veldheer is the best option nonsense when he's raw as you get and unproven. I at least know we'll be mediocre at least with Satele out there. Being able to push your man better than the other guy doesn't make you a better center if you snap slow as a snail, have no knowledge of how to read blitzes and overloads, and have absolutely no timing with your QB. This isnt a test out year, not with Aso and Seymour in their last year, Both our two QB's on the depth chart only around for a couple years, and a Head Coach on thin ice after almost being fired at last season's end.


That's not a logical outcome imo. Titans made enough early mistakes where if we even had some average blocking we woulda been up on them especially after that Young fumble. There woulda been much more urgency and more time to throw(maybe not alot, but more than the .5 seconds I saw at times on missed overloads).

At the end of the day to each his own, but this 6ft 8in no experience Veldheer at center thing smells shittier than starting Satele, Signing Grove, or Signing Hartwig even to me personally and Sunday his performance as a Center(not as a blocker, as a blocker he was ok, which is why he should be our starting LT) did nothing to help that. If it were a smart move, I doubt he'd be the only super tall Center in the NFL. It's crazy how this team has screwed up naturally solid draft picks by moving them way out of position.

Don't know if you saw the posts about the Titans players comments after the game, but they said it was Campbell that was tipping them off. I was assuming it was Veldheer but if it was in fact the QB, Veldheer's mistakes are cut in half.

Bad snaps may have been his biggest issue but they are the most easily corrected.

[Raidermania12]

Don't know if you saw the posts about the Titans players comments after the game, but they said it was Campbell that was tipping them off. I was assuming it was Veldheer but if it was in fact the QB, Veldheer's mistakes are cut in half.

Bad snaps may have been his biggest issue but they are the most easily corrected.

Don't know if you saw the posts about the Titans players comments after the game, but they said it was Campbell that was tipping them off. I was assuming it was Veldheer but if it was in fact the QB, Veldheer's mistakes are cut in half.
Read my response to that silly ish(not silly on your prt, silly on the titans part). Titans aren't looking at the ball, so im sure it would look like that to them.

Bad snaps may have been his biggest issue but they are the most easily corrected.
Inability to make reads not so easily, in fact I expect us to pass that job off to Carsisle again resulting in our just desserts for such a dumbass idea. And a slow snap, naturally slow snap on a guy who's never played center before doesnt sound super easy to fix. Yet back to my original point, why go to all that trouble for Veldheer? He isn't our best option, people just hoping he becomes that because he can block one on one.

[Postmaster]

Inability to make reads not so easily, in fact I expect us to pass that job off to Carsisle again resulting in our just desserts for such a dumbass idea. And a slow snap, naturally slow snap on a guy who's never played center before doesnt sound super easy to fix. Yet back to my original point, why go to all that trouble for Veldheer? He isn't our best option, people just hoping he becomes that because he can block one on one.

Carlisle may have been partially responsible for the line calls but after re-watching the game I saw Veldheer pointing out LB's and as far as I could tell making the line calls.

Is this confirmed that Carlisle was making the calls?

[Raidermania12]

Carlisle may have been partially responsible for the line calls but after re-watching the game I saw Veldheer pointing out LB's and as far as I could tell making the line calls.

Is this confirmed that Carlisle was making the calls?

No, someone here said that Cable said it would be carlisle. I thought it was Veldheer myself but wasn't sure. Still was bad either way, because he doesnt know to make calls if carlisle was doing it, or he was really really bad at it if it was him.

[CrossBones]

We better start worrying a hell of a lot more about the LT situation before all of our QB's are dead. I'd personally be in favor of giving Valdheer reps at LT with the idea he maybe ready ready to go by week 8...Henderson seems to be regressing every week.

To me Valdheer is a tackle. Not saying we don't have a major issue at center but we're fuckin' the dog here IMO. We had all off season to decide what to do about the center position but no we screwed the pooch and now are screwing with this kid's career. Pretty soon we'll have another Robert Gallery on our hands wondering if he should shit or go blind.

I am not for it!

[Crow]

He isn't our best option, people just hoping he becomes that because he can block one on one.

Pretty much.

Satele doesn't offer much as a blocker, but he has the mental part of the position down.

Can't imagine it not being an upgrade to move Veldheer back to LT and Satele back into the starting lineup.

[NIPS]

I think the thinking is- he's strong for an UT

We talked about 10 of the 16 teams we face sporting a 30 front

Titans were one of the 6 that dont

[cruedi]

We better start worrying a hell of a lot more about the LT situation before all of our QB's are dead. I'd personally be in favor of giving Valdheer reps at LT with the idea he maybe ready ready to go by week 8...Henderson seems to be regressing every week.

To me Valdheer is a tackle. Not saying we don't have a major issue at center but we're fuckin' the dog here IMO. We had all off season to decide what to do about the center position but no we screwed the pooch and now are screwing with this kid's career. Pretty soon we'll have another Robert Gallery on our hands wondering if he should shit or go blind.

I am not for it!


That's my concern about him not being at center. He'll sit behind Henderson and Walker and we'll never see him again. For whatever reason he was moved to center let him play.

We're obviously not bringing in any one else right now. With Satele and CC playing all of our runs will be blown up the backfield. Hell I remember one play with CC being pushed back into Campbell and then getting called for holding!!!

Hey maybe we can put Veldheer at right guard and start Satele maybe that would work better.

[poptart]

Where should Veldheer play?

Who the fuck knows?

By moving him to center so late in training camp, Cable has now set it up so that no matter what you do it's going to be problematic.


I remember reading about how once when the Yankees were in a slump, Billy Martin decided, "What the fuck, I'm going to drop all the names in a hat and pull 'em out one-by-one to determine the batting order. THAT will shake things up."

I did that with our O-Line.
Took our best five linemen, dropped in a hat, and pulled 'em out to set the lineup.

Here it is.


LT - Carlisle
LG - Henderson
C - Gallery
RG - Walker
RT - Veldheer


Roll with it, Curly.
Can't be worse than the bullshit you've saddled us with.




http://img.listal.com/image/68040/500full-curly-howard.jpg

nyuk nyuk nyuk

[007]

I didnt like the move to C at first, but I think people are quickly forgetting how bad Satele was last year.

If we could re-sign Grove I might sit Veldheer, but if it comes down to Satele vs. Veldheer, I think the coaches actually made the right call.

It was his first game so he gets a minor pass from me. Hell, Carlisle gave up the big interior sack and it was the tackles who looked like dog shit from my couch. I definitely didnt key on him though...

[Freezetag168]

I'd rather have Groves signed, put Veldheer at LT, move Henderson to right, remove Carlisle and have Walker at RG. Then have someone ride the hell out of Campbell and prep him for additional depth. Not sure why we kept Satele in the first place.

[007]

Henderson doesnt have the look of a RT, IMO.

I think if we sign Groves and Veldheer goes to LT, we're in the same boat.

A rookie starting a crucial position and trying to develop under the gun...Its a tough call this early on.

I'm no coach, but putting a rookie out there at LT scares me worse than making him change positions and go to center.

Call me crazy, but Veldheer :::might::: get better next week and the week after.

[Byron2112]

Risk what?

All this success we've been swimming in?

[Raidermania12]

I didnt like the move to C at first, but I think people are quickly forgetting how bad Satele was last year.

If we could re-sign Grove I might sit Veldheer, but if it comes down to Satele vs. Veldheer, I think the coaches actually made the right ..
Really? Veldheer has only done one thing better than satele so far and that's one on one blocking. He's been absolutely horrific everywhere else. Not even mediocre but just bad. I saw satele last year and while he was never anything I'd cherish, he was not this bad at playing center and when guys got beat it was because they got beat, not because his slow snap has the qb leaning in wait and his weak adjustments have the tackles in limbo. I don't wanna kill qb's bodies and spirits because every team is gonna mix up their overloads and outside blitzes until Veldheer finds the brain power to make the right adjustments. I mean a lack of progress this year means redo part 5 happens w/o aso and w/o Seymour. That would suck donkey balls and Veldheer learning a job he's never had and by most teams logic is too tall for seems like a severely harsh gamble. I hope I'm proven to be wrong, but deep down I know this has bad idea written all over it and it makes sapp look right about cable being an idiot hc.

[Raider Outlaw]

This.


It would be different if Veldheer had been there from Day 1, learning. He hasn't, and he's going to contribute to getting the QBs (yes, more than one) killed.

The Patriots hope he plays there all year.

[Birdwell]

Veldheer is a very smart kid and, more importantly, he picks stuff up quickly. I never played O-line, but I did attack them, and the entire approach for a T is different for a C, the most important aspects being playing in space vs. phone booth and how high your pad level has to be. That Veldheer played as well as he did against the Titans in Tennessee is cause for some optimism.

When the stadium is too loud for a hard count, and the C-QB relationship has not yet been tested, there will be problems with snaps, and we saw those, though not even a quarter as many as happened with Grove and Brooks/Walter at M&T Stadium in 2007.

I can't imagine a tougher way to start. That the kid competed all game is a big deal. Watch it again, those of you who want to dump him, his run blocking alone makes him worth taking over Satele. Add in that people don't just run through him (like they have run through Satele, even in exhibition this year), and he's our buest option right now, and limited history suggests he'll be better each week.

We run for over 200 yards against the Rams.

[Raider Outlaw]

It's not that we want to dump him. The fact that he wasn't moved there from day one in the off-season is what makes the entire process so backward. Until 2 1/2 weeks ago, the Raiders were ready to depend on Satele again at C when we all knew he isn't an NFL caliber starter at C.

Why not explore options in May, why not bring back Grove while he plays at tackle this year, or even just backs Grove up for a few weeks until he has a better handle on the mental aspect of playing C, which cannot be mastered with 2 weeks of reps? With such short sighted planning, the Raiders have just put themselves and this young man between the proverbial rock and a hard spot.

Now, you're compounding this guy's learning curve when he should just naturally learn the position, then go do it on the field. Instead, he's learning while doing it on the field. While he's getting those nuances down, we'll lose more games than we'll win.

That's not good coaching, that's the definition of bad coaching, putting your players in difficult or impossible situations to succeed.

I mean, if you think the Rams and Arizona are a cake walk based on what our respective teams have done in this first game, you're just not being honest with yourself, and our already bad line play being compounded by it's leader learning on the fly puts winnable games in jeopardy.

I didn't think we'd win at Tennessee, but we had no shot. Absolutely none because the line was so out of sorts. If you're willing to concede games for one player to get up to speed, that's fine, but I don't think most of us are, especially when that guy's not a QB.

[007]

Really? Veldheer has only done one thing better than satele so far and that's one on one blocking. He's been absolutely horrific everywhere else. Not even mediocre but just bad. I saw satele last year and while he was never anything I'd cherish, he was not this bad at playing center and when guys got beat it was because they got beat, not because his slow snap has the qb leaning in wait and his weak adjustments have the tackles in limbo. I don't wanna kill qb's bodies and spirits because every team is gonna mix up their overloads and outside blitzes until Veldheer finds the brain power to make the right adjustments. I mean a lack of progress this year means redo part 5 happens w/o aso and w/o Seymour. That would suck donkey balls and Veldheer learning a job he's never had and by most teams logic is too tall for seems like a severely harsh gamble. I hope I'm proven to be wrong, but deep down I know this has bad idea written all over it and it makes sapp look right about cable being an idiot hc.

He's played in sixty snaps.

If he continues to struggle, maybe we can hit the panic button.

I'm willing to give him a bit more time. What I saw Sunday was no worse than some of the games with Morris or Satele.

[Raidermania12]

He's played in sixty snaps.

If he continues to struggle, maybe we can hit the panic button.

I'm willing to give him a bit more time. What I saw Sunday was no worse than some of the games with Morris or Satele.

Well we fundamentally disagree on just how bad satele was, because I thought I saw the easily worst performance ever at center Sunday, but he's a rookie and never been there before, so its not a knock on him at all. In the one positive I take from his game is he can only go up from there. But I have doubts about it being enough to win games that IMO we win with satele(we beat some very good teams with satele last year and with Russell behind him no less in some of them). Whole team is on veldheer's learning curve, not really putting the team first IMO, but cable is taking on the move and it's all on him if it fails.

[007]

I hear your points for sure.

I do think Satele is mediocre at best though. I have a hard time thinking someone could argue against that. A stop gap on the best of days...

Hell, he lost his job to Morris once or twice last year, hasnt stayed healthy for any extended time and lost his job :::yet again::: to a rookie who has never played center before. He could barely carry 300 pounds last year which is a big issue against 30 fronts.

I would rather have Grove with Satele as a backup than Satele starting at all.

[CrossBones]

I do think Satele is atrocious though.None of us here would argue that. You'd think the organization would have noticed that before the third preseason game. -- like in December and done something about it in the offseason. Oh no...not the Raider way I guess. Just keep doing the same shit over and over -- someday things will just magically fall into place. Yeah. That's it.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[RaiderNorth]

Cable's new plan: Activate Stevie Brown and start him at C

[007]

Cable's new plan: Activate Stevie Brown and start him at C

Al would counter that by moving Mike Mitchell over....

[Raidermania12]

Definitely not calling satele even good. But I firmly believe that we had a better shot at winning with him Sunday easily over Veldheer. That's what irks me, and it wouldn't have last year or if Veldheer was running first team center in ota's all the way up to now. But as it stands this move reeks of gambling idiocy. And he's doing with the most talented team we have had in a few years.

[Crow]

Part of the problem is that the O-line, regardless of individual player ability, is a failure if it's not acting as a cohesive unit. It would be hard to dispute that, as a unit, the line showed more cohesion with Satele on the pivot. What Veldheer does one on one again his guy is really irrelevant when the rest of the line is this out of sorts.

After the Rams game, if things haven't shown improvement, they really need to pull the plug on this experiment...at least until next year's OTAs/Minis.

[Postmaster]

Part of the problem is that the O-line, regardless of individual player ability, is a failure if it's not acting as a cohesive unit. It would be hard to dispute that, as a unit, the line showed more cohesion with Satele on the pivot. What Veldheer does one on one again his guy is really irrelevant when the rest of the line is this out of sorts.

After the Rams game, if things haven't shown improvement, they really need to pull the plug on this experiment...at least until next year's OTAs/Minis.

I would give it until week 4. The guy has some serious strength. By far the strongest guy we have had at center since Barrett. You can't teach strength, you can teach line calls.

[Crow]

You also can't teach a QB's bones to not break or his tendons to not snap.

[Raidermania12]

You also can't teach a QB's bones to not break or his tendons to not snap.
We may have to doing this crazy shit to start what looked to at least be a competitive season until his experiment was pulled out of Cable's asshole.

[Postmaster]

We may have to doing this crazy shit to start what looked to at least be a competitive season until his experiment was pulled out of Cable's asshole.

Who was the OL coach when we switched the 6'6 Don Mosebar from college tackle to NFL center?

[Birdwell]

Who was the OL coach when we switched the 6'6 Don Mosebar from college tackle to NFL center?

Rep.

Mosebar didn't play much at all his rookie year, and played RG, I think, his second season. Repalced Dave Dalby in '95 (who replaced Otto in '73).

Who was O-line coach? As former QB, HC Flores certainly had some say, I would think.

[Crow]

Mosebar wasn't moved to center two weeks before his first game as a rookie, and rested the final preseason game because he didn't need the reps.

[Postmaster]

Was a Satele style center in front of Mosebar his rookie year?

[Raidermania12]

Was a Satele style center in front of Mosebar his rookie year?
Is that relevant when unlike Mosebar Veldheer sucks at the moment as a Center.

I mean who hear thought Veldheer played Center(not individual blocker) better than Satele? If anybody thinks so and saw the whole game i'm gonna have to wonder what exactly you call solid center play, or mediocre for that matter. Calling him a better option would be solely based on hope since nothing he did on the field suggests as much.

[007]

The verdict is still out on Veldheer as a center, but unfortunately for us, the verdict was in long ago on Satele;

He's no good. After a decent rookie year, the Dolphins replaced him for pennies on the dollar and we've tried to do the same. Thats a sad testament to where he is as a player, and what coaches think of him down the road...

I'm willing to give Veldheer a few more weeks and I assume Cable and Co. will do the same.

[Raidermania12]

Rep.

Mosebar didn't play much at all his rookie year, and played RG, I think, his second season. Repalced Dave Dalby in '95 (who replaced Otto in '73)..

So he has no parallel to Veldheer outside of height? What's the positive? :confused:

[Postmaster]

Is that relevant when unlike Mosebar Veldheer sucks at the moment as a Center.

I mean who hear thought Veldheer played Center(not individual blocker) better than Satele? If anybody thinks so and saw the whole game i'm gonna have to wonder what exactly you call solid center play, or mediocre for that matter. Calling him a better option would be solely based on hope since nothing he did on the field suggests as much.

If Satele would of started he undoubtedly would of got his ass handed to him.

There would of been a "When do we start Veldheer" thread going on in this ones place.

Satele was brought in to run the cut block system and to be honest he sucked at it. Now we are switching to a more power scheme. If he couldn't handle the cut scheme, I am sure he would be an utter disaster in the power blocking one.

If Veldheer blows this week my guess is he will either be replaced by week 3 or given one more shot.

Why replace him with a bum now without giving him a few more games? You have already committed to him, one game in a hostile environment shouldn't end the experiment.

[Raidermania12]

The verdict is still out on Veldheer as a center, but unfortunately for us, the verdict was in long ago on Satele;
And that verdict is better than Veldheer. The verdict on Veldheer's career, position, and many other things is still out by default, but sucked as a Center, way worse than Satele.

Out blocking Satele(he is easily better blocker than Satele) isnt better Center play. You can't honestly call that clusterfuck on sunday as bad as anything we did last year as a group Satele's mediocre blocking be damned. I haven't seen us that bad at catching overloads since the Art Shell part 2 era. Bleh, nevermind, I can see Satele is gonna be the scapegoat to back this bad idea to its end. I just hope i'm completely wrong, because if not this will be one of the most waste of talent starts ever to a season.

[Raidermania12]

If Satele would of started he undoubtedly would of got his ass handed to him..
But would the Line? If you believe the line woulda been as bad in reads as it was sunday with Satele, then you are being unrealistic.

[Postmaster]

But would the Line? If you believe the line woulda been as bad in reads as it was sunday with Satele, then you are being unrealistic.

I stated this before, a sack from the edge is no worse than a sack straight up the gut.

Is it?

And our run blocking certainly looked pretty solid as well, particularly in the middle.

Veldheer can learn the line calls, Satele can't learn how to be Paul Bunyan.

How fast can he learn them is the question.

[CrossBones]

Well I'm not necessarily for this but I think at this point the kid deserves 3-4 weeks. I don't see Cable doing anything other than that. I just wish the team would have been planning for the mess we had at center back in the days before the draft and FA. We completely ignored it and Valdheer now seems the best option they could come up with. As I mentioned I'd rather he be groomed at LT and replace Henderson mid season if Hendo continues to regress. But at this point I'll try and support V and hope we can make something good happen.

[Raidermania12]

I stated this before, a sack from the edge is no worse than a sack straight up the gut.
We're not talking about sacks because yea a sack is a sack no matter who gives it up, we are talking about pressure. I prefer for JC to face eventual pressure at one spot that constant pressure at two to three spots. I'd rather him have 3 pathetic seconds to throw(enough time for a slant) when its bad rather than .5 seconds(enough time fall down and take an immediate before you get killed). Campbell wouldnt have to take a knee with Satele, he'd have to make quicker decisions, but not take a knee because of crappy snaps and putrid misreads on Overloads.

[Raidermania12]

But at this point I'll try and support V and hope we can make something good happen.
I support good play, and I hope he plays well. But he hasn't so far, for who i do support(the team) it's shitty because of the importance of his job. It's the one line spot where you have to do more than block.

[Postmaster]

We're not talking about sacks because yea a sack is a sack no matter who gives it up, we are talking about pressure. I prefer for JC to face eventual pressure at one spot that constant pressure at two to three spots. I'd rather him have 3 pathetic seconds to throw(enough time for a slant) when its bad rather than .5 seconds(enough time fall down and take an immediate before you get killed). Campbell wouldnt have to take a knee with Satele, he'd have to make quicker decisions, but not take a knee because of crappy snaps and putrid misreads on Overloads.

As the game went on things got better. I realize the game was out of hand but after the 1st quarter no sacks were given up and we started to move the ball.

Veldheer didn't get beat physically he got beat mentally. I wouldn't give up on him yet for the mental aspects as they are the most easily corrected.

If he blows in week 2 and is granted a start in week 3 and stinks it up for a 3rd straight week then I am all for making a switch, but the commitment has been made and to give up on it because of one bad quarter would be foolish IMO.

[Raidermania12]

Veldheer didn't get beat physically he got beat mentally. .
Most important part of playing Center is the mental aspect. So no thanks on that for me. But its not my choice.

[cruedi]

The only reason we should make a switch is if we can sign someone better (which I don't see happening anytime soon), and then we should mv Veldheer to RT and replace Walker. Veldheer should be on the field he's defiantly one of our 5 best lineman. With Gallery out again I dare say is our best lineman.

[Postmaster]

Most important part of playing Center is the mental aspect. So no thanks on that for me. But its not my choice.

I would agree somewhat but Satele would still be starting if that statement was 100% accurate.

[Raidermania12]

I would agree somewhat but Satele would still be starting if that statement was 100% accurate.

You say that as if Cable makes competent decisions. Or is it competent when its convenient?:confused:

[Postmaster]

You say that as if Cable makes competent decisions. Or is it competent when its convenient?:confused:

Trying to upgrade potentially our weakest spot on a weak line is not incompetence in my book.

Let it play out a few weeks and see what happens.

Learning the center position isn't rocket science, and Veldheer is not an idiot.

You act like there is zero chance it will work out.

Half the battle is already won. Now he just has to take care of the easy part.

[Raidermania12]

Trying to upgrade potentially our weakest spot on a weak line is not incompetence in my book.
But trying to with no experience at all is. I never said upgrading was bad, but he isnt one as far as i've seen.

[007]

I never said upgrading was bad, but he isnt one as far as i've seen.

Luckily for us, he's only played one game.

Geezus man, give the guy a couple more weeks at the position.

This thread is two weeks too early.

[Raidermania12]

Luckily for us, he's only played one game.

Geezus man, give the guy a couple more weeks at the position.

This thread is two weeks too early.

Umm i'd rather not wait 2 losses further, but its up to Cable who is an idiot fucking his own job over so i'm sure he'll get 5 weeks.*sigh* I will note that some the people saying this wait see on him are saying put in Grads after 1 week.

[007]

Fans are a fickle bunch.

We've waited 8 years to get a winner in here, we can wait another week or two to see Veldheer in at center, LOL.

[Postmaster]

I will note that some the people saying this wait see on him are saying put in Grads after 1 week.

Grad has shown he gives this team a spark.

Campbell was the same Campbell in week 1 that got him run out of DC.

Veldheer is 1 month into a position change, that if successful would be a huge upgrade over last year's undersized, less talented predecessor.

[poptart]

I tend to agree with 007 here.

Cable aready butchered the situation, but the best thing to do moving forward from here is to suck it up and keep going with Veldheer at center, imo.


I DO have many questions about the situation, though.

A few of them.

- Is C the position Cable thinks Veldheer is going to play ... for his career?

- Or is this just a "stop gap" move to try to cover for the fact that we don't have a real center on our roster this year?

- Might be see a position switch for Veldheer next year?

- Might we see a switch this year, if things continue to go badly for him at C?

- Couldn't Cable recognize early in training camp that Satale was not going to make it for us at C?

- Weren't there some personnel moves that could have been made to try to fortify our O-Line before the games began?


I hope the kid plays his ass off for us at C.

I'm pulling for him and it's not an easy gig ... for a lot of reasons.

[Raider Bill]

It's just annoying... this is something any half assed coach would have worked out in camp and preseason.... instead we're using regular season games to get the guy up to speed.

[Sleet]

Its Week 2. I'll start arm-chair coaching down the road. Right now, you stay the course. Hope what you hoped for, surfaces. Man up; have some sack.

[RF34]

Its Week 2. I'll start arm-chair coaching down the road. Right now, you stay the course. Hope what you hoped for, surfaces. Man up; have some sack.

This

[Deadbolt]

The verdict is still out on Veldheer as a center, but unfortunately for us, the verdict was in long ago on Satele;

He's no good. After a decent rookie year, the Dolphins replaced him for pennies on the dollar and we've tried to do the same. Thats a sad testament to where he is as a player, and what coaches think of him down the road...

I'm willing to give Veldheer a few more weeks and I assume Cable and Co. will do the same.
Thank you! Fuck.

[Limee]

- Is C the position Cable thinks Veldheer is going to play ... for his career?
Key question for me. If not then I think we should have gone with him at right guard instead of Carlisle, but he seems to be an untouchable. Satele flanked by probably our two strongest lineman would have been a better short term bet than Veldheer learning the center position if that is not where his future lies.

[Postmaster]

VittorioTafurCable wouldn't say that Veldheer was definitely starting at center again

[Postmaster]

timkawakamiCable's an over-promoted line coach who isn't even really coaching the line now. Al made the Veldheer-to-C move, I'm sure.

[CrossBones]

Fuck you Tim.

[Postmaster]

"That Jared Mosebar kid is a great playah, get ovah it."

[Madturk]

I think Tim needs the John Herrera treatment again

[JohnQ]

To me Valdheer is a tackle. Not saying we don't have a major issue at center but we're fuckin' the dog here IMO. We had all off season to decide what to do about the center position but no we screwed the pooch and now are screwing with this kid's career. Pretty soon we'll have another Robert Gallery on our hands wondering if he should shit or go blind.

I am not for it!

I'm not saying we didn't screw the pooch here or on Gallery.But wasn't part of the reason for putting him (stick boy)at G was because he wasn't cutting it a T? Or was it another case of square peg round hole where we played him on the wrong side ? I can't remember.

[Raider Bill]

timkawakami

that at least makes sense.

[Raidermania12]

"That Jared Mosebar kid is a great playah, get ovah it."

It would be funny if it wasn't plausible, what is funny is the immediate turn against this move if it's found out that the staff wasn't even in favor of it.

[Postmaster]

It would be funny if it wasn't plausible, what is funny is the immediate turn against this move if it's found out that the staff wasn't even in favor of it.

Nah, any way you slice it, Satele is still the alternative.

Whoever is trying to replace that scrub is ok in my book.

[JohnQ]

Cable wouldn't say that Veldheer was definitely starting at center again

Now if this is really true.Then Curly is a Stooge.It would have to be the most retarded thing I've ever heard...EVER.

[Postmaster]

If he doesn't start, Gallery's injury I am sure would play a role in that decision and would probably be the no. 1 factor.

Don't know that Loper could help out the rook much as his head would most likely be spinning just as much as Mosebar's

[Raidermania12]

Nah, any way you slice it, Satele is still the alternative.
And still a better one than Veldheer. And still you have nothing from Veldheer on the field to suggest otherwise.

[Postmaster]

And still a better one than Veldheer. And still you have nothing from Veldheer on the field to suggest otherwise.

Let it go man. It looks like a 50/50 shot that the experiment is over.

You may get your wish and get to watch Satele get trucked for 4 quarters.

[Raidermania12]

Don't know that Loper could help out the rook much as his head would most likely be spinning just as much as Mosebar's

Now you sound like Al Davis. :eek:

He's not Mosebar. Mosebar actually had experience in this league before his conversion and likely had legit time to prepare. Jason Plunkett, Jared Mosebar, Darren Jackson, Darrius Heyward Haynes, or Rolando Biekert even? No, none of these guys are ghosts of the old guys returned in exact form to take over. They are different and rehashing flashback scenarios and squeeze them into modern football as if nothing has changed is a good way to fail imo.

[Postmaster]

Now you sound like Al Davis. :eek:

He's not Mosebar. Mosebar actually had experience in this league before his conversion and likely had legit time to prepare. Jason Plunkett, Jared Mosebar, Darren Jackson, Darrius Heyward Haynes, or Rolando Biekert even? No, none of these guys are ghosts of the old guys returned in exact form to take over. They are different and rehashing flashback scenarios and squeeze them into modern football as if nothing has changed is a good way to fail imo.

I think it's Rolando Millen.

[Raidermania12]

Let it go man. It looks like a 50/50 shot that the experiment is over.
And thats still better odds that Veldheer has under the circumstances. Also you let it go, you've been just as hard backing this possible Al Davis nostalgia move as much as i have been questioning it..

[Postmaster]

And thats still better odds that Veldheer has under the circumstances. Also you let it go, you've been just as hard backing this possible Al Davis nostalgia move as much as i have been questioning it..

No I haven't. I posted a tweet from kawasakisuzuki and left it at that.

Al would never look at a new player and compare him to a great Raider of the past. Never.

[Raidermania12]

No I haven't. I posted a tweet from kawasakisuzuki and left it at that.

Al would never look at a new player and compare him to a great Raider of the past. Never.

You are still here. WTF? lol...Yea you've totally moved on. :confused:

[Raidermania12]

And thats still better odds that Veldheer has under the circumstances.

Also let me say that if he had more time to prepare i'd be on board with this. He's not getting that right now though, so he'll be our weakest option until he gets better.

[Postmaster]

Also let me say that if he had more time to prepare i'd be on board with this. He's not getting that right now though, so he'll be our weakest option until he gets better.

That might be the plan anyway to give him more time. With Gallery out I am guessing that will put a hold on things for the time being.

[Madturk]

No I haven't. I posted a tweet from kawasakisuzuki and left it at that.

Al would never look at a new player and compare him to a great Raider of the past. Never.

I really have a hard time believing that this was an Al move. Then again, it's only an Al move when it backfires:p

[Postmaster]

I really have a hard time believing that this was an Al move. Then again, it's only an Al move when it backfires:p

Who knows?

Who moved Mosebar from college tackle to center?

Its not like there isn't a history there.

[Crow]

And if anyone is known for trying to recapture history...well...yeah.

[Postmaster]

JerrymcdGallery doubtful, Loper probably to start at LG. Seymour questionable. Cable still not sure whether Veldheer, Satele will start at center.

[RaiderJF]

What a joke. "Cable not sure whether Veldheer, Satele will start at c". This is almost as believable as Cable's quote last week that Bush was a "game time decision". Looks like Curly graduated from the John Herrera school of public relations as he just comes off sounding like an idiot.

[Madturk]

Why a joke? Why not keep your opponent guessing as to what center you're going up against?

[Postmaster]

Exactly.

[CrossBones]

Why a joke? Why not keep your opponent guessing as to what center you're going up against?

Exactly.Oh stop it.

[Rupert]

Oh stop it.

Come on now!

Why not keep them guessing which jersey color we'll wear?

[Postmaster]

VittorioTafurNot being negative but ... does it make sense to sit rookie Veldheer for preseason finale, play him at new position on road at Tenn. and ... then bench him for home opener aganst 1-26 Rams? I don't think so

Welcome to the Raiders Jared.

[raiderfreak7]

It's all part of the master plan.

[raiderfreak7]

I need a cigarette after all this fooling around.

[Postmaster]

I need a cigarette after all this fooling around.

You bring the smokes, I'll bring the blindfolds.

[007]

Maybe this means Veldheer can replace Mario sooner...

FML.

8-8 my ass.

[Postmaster]

Maybe this means Veldheer can replace Mario sooner...

FML.

8-8 my ass.

That has to be done sooner or later.

[007]

Put this guy back at center.

He's either not ready for Left Tackle, or he sucks.

Hall just beat him for a sack, he has a hold penalty and he almost gave up two more in about 10 minutes of play...

[Crow]

Bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuce