Poole: Raiders still need front-office help

[Diceq]

THEIR LEADER had handed them few lines to cling to, a reason to believe, a sliver of hope for those who had not given up.

There was, this time, reason for faith.

It was last September, after the unforgettable news conference in which coach Lane Kiffin was fired, that Raiders boss Al Davis was asked if he thought the organization had a need for another football executive.

His words at the time: "Yes."

His actions in the 10 months since: "No."

Despite clearly stating he saw the wisdom in having another high-powered football brain in the building, there is no evidence Davis recruited any such individual.

In short, Al decided to ignore his own advice.

So it was that the Raiders offseason ended Tuesday, signaling another year during which the fondest wish of their fans again went unanswered.

As they enter training camp with legitimate concerns about defending the run and reaching the end zone and the maturity and commitment of their young franchise quarterback, the biggest barrier to success remains in place, as stubborn and imposing as ever.

For all of Al's assets, his liabilities continue unimpeded, without the challenge that might be provided by a respected voice of reason.

And, no, bringing in journeyman offensive minds Paul Hackett and Ted Tollner does not qualify. They're coaches, and Davis claimed to have his eyes on someone "local" who would assume much greater


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Advertisement


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
authority.

"There's one guy I'm looking at now," he said then. "It would be an executive role."

This dramatic move would come during the offseason, Davis said. When former Raiders coach John Madden retired from broadcasting, it naturally led to speculation that the East Bay resident might rejoin the organization.

Well, the rumors about Madden were, by all appearances, unfounded. Fired Detroit Lions executive Matt Millen, a former Raider, went into TV. And Ron Wolf, the most successful personnel exec in Raiders history, ain't comin' back.

Wolf is the template for the unfilled position. He worked under Davis for 23 years, from 1966-75 and 1978-90 and shares responsibility with Davis for the glory years of yore. Wolf had Al's ear, which led to the drafting of such stars as Art Shell, Gene Upshaw, Jack Tatum, Kenny Stabler, Howie Long, Marcus Allen and Millen. Davis was not sold on some of those players, certainly not Stabler.

Indeed, to chart a graph of Raiders history is to discover that the highs and lows closely coincide with periods when Wolf was or was not on the payroll.

In the 18 seasons since Wolf's last departure — he went to Green Bay, where he quickly replaced Lindy Infante with Mike Holmgren, traded for a Falcons backup quarterback named Brett Favre and signed a free agent named Reggie White — the Raiders are 34 games under .500 (127-161), with four 10-win seasons.

Putting that into perspective, they're behind the Broncos, behind the Chargers and behind even the Chiefs.

And it's not because Davis, 80, has not been trying. His search for answers is constant and sometimes mimics desperation.

But the search also has been narrow, confined to those more inclined to comply than complement.

After the disasters of recent seasons, beginning with Al's recruitment of Tom Walsh from a rural bed-and-breakfast inn to run the offense in 2006, to the odd hire of USC assistant Kiffin in 2007 to the fury and panic evident in the spending spree of last offseason, it was conceivable that Davis had reached a point where he could accept someone capable of protecting him from his worst instincts.

Even Al concluded as much, only to be overruled by his ego, according to people who deal with him regularly.

So the sweating and grunting this week in Napa comes after a relatively uneventful offseason. Tom Cable is back, as secure as any Raiders coach can be. Draft picks were more curious than breathtaking. Signings were more calculated, requiring much less of the checkbook. Hackett and Tollner and new defensive coordinator John Marshall are pros but hardly exciting additions.

No, the most potentially exciting addition to the Raiders is as elusive as ever. No matter how hard the players work in the coming weeks or how badly the fans want to win, real change is ever more difficult to visualize.

[Diceq]

So many of us have been on this point since Bruce Allen left and again when Lombardi left. That being said, the 2007 draft went well...unfortunatley Al fired alot of the guys involved.

There were some rumors about the Eagles personell guy looking to move...I was hoping for him...Could be worse...there were Matt Millen rumors!

[TheMadStork]

Wolf is the template for the unfilled position. He worked under Davis for 23 years, from 1966-75 and 1978-90 and shares responsibility with Davis for the glory years of yore. Wolf had Al's ear, which led to the drafting of such stars as Art Shell, Gene Upshaw, Jack Tatum, Kenny Stabler, Howie Long, Marcus Allen and Millen. Davis was not sold on some of those players, certainly not Stabler.



Stabler was never known for his arm, but he could read a defense like it was a cheap paperback. The moral of the story being: when you only look at measureables and ignore intangibles, you're screwed. Which is, I think, the main reason that Al has (mainly) ignored linemen at the top of the draft. He doesn't have a way he trusts to measure them. Whereas with WR's and DB's, he can look at his stopwatch. We need a GM who has the skill to judge a player by their performance on the field instead of their 40 time at the combine.

Al wasn't happy about Gru bringing in Gannon, for what I'm guessing is the same reason. You can measure how far a guy can throw the ball, but you can't measure if the guy has the smarts (and balls) to get it where it needs to go.

[CrossBones]

Funny how Al didn't like Stabler and didn't like Gannon -- as quarterbacks. They just won, baby.

I remember way back in the day Al complaining that Stabler didn't have the "big arm". But WTH is he gonna do when the man just keeps winning division championships and getting deep into the playoffs year after year? You would think he'd have learned his lesson on that score but no. JaMarcus Russell, come on down! Here's to you Al. Maybe your magic will return and Ja will be the greatness in the Raiders' future.

[RaiderJF]

MS,

You are absolutely right that Al has never valued intangibles very well. He is a raw physical skills, how do you look walk walking off the bus and whats your 40 time type of guy. He has never been one to put much stock into a guys intelligence, leadership skills, dedication, experience, or will to win. Unfortunately for Al (and us Raider fans), the NFL has changed dramatically over the past 30 years and in many ways those attributes of intelligence, leadership, dedication, discipline, and will to win are more important than just the raw physical tools. Those old Raiders teams of the 70's and 80's could physically dominate their opponents. Pound the rock behind Shell and Upshaw, run by them with Branch, lock them down with W Brown, Lester Hayes, Haynes, and physically beat them up with monsters like Davidson, Ted Hendricks, Alzado, etc... Now the difference in physical talent across the league is minimal and the intangibles make the difference. Al can't go out and find vastly superior athletes like Shell hidden away at some small black college -- too many scouts to leave these stones unturned. But he still is trying his old recipe reaching for guys like DHB and Mitchell -- vintage Al... Meanwhile, teams like the Pats and Giants have been pioneers in the league in terms of searching out and drafting high character, intelligent, leadership guys as the core of their team and they have reaped great success from this drafting strategy (yes, they still bring in some guys like R Moss and Plex Burress, but they bring these guys in as free agents to put them over the top and who have to mesh with the existing culture of the team instead of those type guys creating the culture of the team...). With that said, it does seem that Cable is trying to steer Al more in this direction, but we all know how precarious a position an Oakland HC is in... This team desparately needs a strong front office presence to work with and counteract Al. But its been a while since this organization has had a franchise rb combined with a franchise qb (plus a franchise lock-down corner) and along with Al's belief that he also has his franchise #1 wr - so Al may be feeling that he is close to being back on top and I am absolutely 100% sure that he wouldn't want to share the accolades with anyone if the team were to have success...

[Sleet]

RJF: To some extent, I agree with your take. But remember this, Al just didn't find physically talented players. Hendricks, for example, was very intelligent. Also, Shell and Upshaw were not just big; they were leaders. Upshaw worked closely with Al, not only to lead the Raiders to SuperBowls, but also the players association to where it is now. Shell, for his part, was a successful NFL OL-coach (Atlanta Falcons SuperBowl team), and lead the Raiders to a successful run his first time as HC.

Al's problem is he's trying to do too much by himself, at a time when he can't do nearly as much as he use to. In Al's peak, he had Wolf plus Madden, then Flores doing heavy lifting for him. Now, well, he doesn't. That's the biggest difference, along with the inablity to land and keep a quality HC.

[CrossBones]

RaiderJF...well put and right on the money an all issues. REP!!!

In effect, Al got lucky with Shell and Upshaw and some others. He's tying to duplicate what worked for him 35 years ago and he's not understanding that it won't work. The stop watch doesn't mean much in today's NFL. Speed is nice but not essential.

How many times do I have to say it? The great Raider teams of the past had 7-8 hall of fame players on them. They could make mistakes and still win. The 2009 Raiders have zero HOF players and can't make mistakes. I think Al overestimates the effect that Bey will have. In today's game his speed will be minimized.

All this is why Al Davis really needed (to late now for this year) to get a football guy in there like Ron Wolf who could wade through this stuff and help Al make the right decisions.

The Raiders are what they are and it's really not going to change.

[DonkeyKilla]

The stop watch doesn't mean much in today's NFL. Speed is nice but not essential.
i'm going to beg to differ on this one... Speed is a necessity but needs to paired up with an ability to play freaking football.
If ASO has a long career he will have a shot at HOF.
DHB's speed will only be minimized if he doesn't develop the football skills and the rest of the O doesn't figure out how to pass block and be efficient.
no doubt Al needs a good Football guy.

[CrossBones]

The stop watch doesn't mean much in today's NFL. Speed is nice but not essential.
i'm going to beg to differ on this one... Speed is a necessity but needs to paired up with an ability to play freaking football.
If ASO has a long career he will have a shot at HOF.
DHB's speed will only be minimized if he doesn't develop the football skills and the rest of the O doesn't figure out how to pass block and be efficient.
no doubt Al needs a good Football guy.Problem is that Al Davis 'thinks' speed is the end all in this game. It's simply not. It's a part of the puzzle but not the all encompasing element Davis hangs his hat on.

Sure Bey has to have football skills (see Jessie Hester another 1st round speed merchant bust). Randy Moss had plenty of speed but his effectiveness in Oakland was not good because speed alone doesn't translate to good results. The fact that the lines on both sides of the LOS have been in shambles for a long time attests to the problem. You have to have a mix. We don't or at least haven't for a long time.

[Birdwell]

Games are won on the field, by the players. Having MBAs in the front office has little to nothing to do with that. Formulas guaranty nothing.

Can't hire good coaches? Yes, he missed on White, the Genius formerly of Denver alienated his players and had to go, Bugel didn't work out, Callahan was an imbecile, Norv is a great OC who just doesn't have it to be HC, Art Shell II was a disaster, and Davis got snowed by young Lance.

The pedigree of John Madden? LB coach.
The pedigree of Tom Flores? CFL and NFL QB, assistant coach below coordinator level.
The pedigree of Chuckie? Offensive assistant.

Hiring recycled NFL head coaches is no less a crapshoot than hiring someone new to the HC position. Really. Sure, the floor is lower, but the winning of Super Bowls is worse with recycled guys than new guys. Hot commodities as HC candidates also don't have a huge hit rate. Marvin Lewis, Norv Turner, Dave Wannstedt were the hottest candidates in their respsctive markets, and none have done anything. Neither have all the Belicheat disciples.

The pedigree of Tom Cable? O-line coach. We'll see what he does.

The other parts of the team not involved as coaches, players, trainers and equipment managers play a much more supplemental role. From advanced scouting and travel logistics to personnel guys and marketing people, and also including those who act as liaisons with the community and league office, and so on. On game day, they do nothing, all their work is auxiliary (but not unimportant) to what goes on in the field.

Adding bean counters won't help much. Much more important, in the history of the Raider organization, is the relationship between the HC and Al Davis. If the HC earn's Davis trust (by winning), personnel issues -- which is really what people complain about most, with some justice -- are much less of a problem. Except if the Hc really gets the owner to suspend his own judgment in too many cases, you get cases like at the end of the Chuckie years when the D was old and slow, the O-line got real old real fast, too little young skill at the skill positions, with the end result that the team goes into a swift decline that cannot be easily corrected.

The personnel pieces seem to be in place, for the most part. No team has 24 pro-bowlers starting each week, not even close. Things look set at LCB, RCB, MIKE, WILL, LT, LG, C, TE, HB, and GB. There is young talent at WR and SS/FS. We'll see what happens at the SAM spot, and the D-line , most especially DE. RT and RG need to be settled. QB needs to continue his development. It's up to the coaches to work with what they have, develop the talent, put the players in a position to get things done.

Another football guy upstairs would have changed what?

[CrossBones]

Bird...

I have to disagree a little here. Yes the players are the ones who win games but when Ron Wolf was here we had a lot of success. Al Davis must have valued his opinion and while we will never know how the actual decisions were made I think having that extra buffer with a guy who was a football man was very helpful. Now Al does it all in a vacuum. Does Cable have much pull with Al? I doubt it seriously. Al's making all the decisions and falling aback on the only way he knows that was successful for him. Sure I'm hoping Bey is the answer but without a solid OL his chances of success early are zip. The OL continues to be a major question mark. So for me Bey was a luxury especially with a tackle like Monroe sitting there for us. Is Al gun shy after the Gallery/Grove draft? Maybe. But I'd take Monroe's downside to Bey's in a heart beat. See, Al used to pick punters and guys out of the blue because we had a team full of great players. Those moves were luxuries he could take then -- not so much now! That's all changed. Bey would be a perfect fit in the days when we were winning routinely -- but he would have been taken at 28!

Anyway, I think it's fair to say that Al is operating the same way he has for 40 years. The fact that things have changed in the NFL and that we don't have a bunch of 'great players' doesn't seem to be factored into the equation.

[TheMadStork]

Another football guy upstairs would have changed what?

Maybe...Not let the B&B offense get implemented. Drafted Luis Castillo instead of Fabian Washington. Drafted Ngata or Cutler instead of Huff. Not signed Kelly to that ridiculous contract (a guy who had proven nothing and was coming off ACL surgery???). Not talked Javon Walker out of retirement. Not traded for DeAngelo Hall. Not bringing in Randy Moss. Not overpaying for Gibril Wilson. I could go on all day.

Nobody is perfect, but when you don't have anyone questioning your judgment and making you REALLY think about what you're doing, you're much more likely to make bad decisions - and keep repeating your mistakes.

Al needs someone to tell him when he's way out in left field and maybe to make him look at players that he wouldn't pick himself. I don't think it's possible to question that the Raiders were better when Al had Ron Wolf in the front office with him. So, yes, I think another football guy would have made a huge difference.

[CrossBones]

Maybe...Not let the B&B offense get implemented. Drafted Luis Castillo instead of Fabian Washington. Drafted Ngata or Cutler instead of Huff. Not signed Kelly to that ridiculous contract (a guy who had proven nothing and was coming off ACL surgery???). Not talked Javon Walker out of retirement. Not traded for DeAngelo Hall. Not bringing in Randy Moss. Not overpaying for Gibril Wilson. I could go on all day.

Nobody is perfect, but when you don't have anyone questioning your judgment and making you REALLY think about what you're doing, you're much more likely to make bad decisions - and keep repeating your mistakes.

Al needs someone to tell him when he's way out in left field and maybe to make him look at players that he wouldn't pick himself. I don't think it's possible to question that the Raiders were better when Al had Ron Wolf in the front office with him. So, yes, I think another football guy would have made a huge difference.Umm yeah Stork! Those are some situations where a Ron Wolf clone might have helped. We were better off as an organization when Al had that kind of guy at his right hand.

[Diceq]

Bird, I somewhat disagree-Al has been looking for a reliable personell guy to challenge him. We've seen evidence...He Blamed Shell for not stopping him from drafting Huff...He let Art talk him into Walsh...He let Norv have Jimmy Raye and Lamont Jordan. He Let Quiffin deal Moss.

A better beancounter may have changed the past...i don't know-Sometimes Al does what he wants...

Going forward, we'll see how Cable does on the player evaluation side. It appears that Al leans on his HC coach to that role alot.

The moderate opinion, which I agree with is Al is 80. He shouldn't need to handle the minute details...A strong GM with a feel for evaluations and updated systems wouldn't hurt

I am optimistic about the building of the team for 9 wins this year.

[TheMadStork]

And speaking of beancounters....

Al is from the pre-salary cap era. The salary cap is so complicated and convoluted that many teams have a person who's main job is understanding the damn thing.

Arizona went to the Super Bowl and they're $41 million under the cap. We won 5 games and we're only about $5 million under. What's wrong with this picture? Someone in the organization isn't very good at allocating money to players who will help us win. According to this article (http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/06/29/more-moneyball-the-economics-of-wins-and-losses/), we're dead last in dollars spent per win. And we're pretty much the only NFL team without a bona fide GM. Coincidence?

Quote from the article:
"The bottom quarter of the league all spent roughly twice as much per win as the Pats, and all of those clubs, save the Houston Texans, have made coaching and/or management changes in the past year (it also explains why some believe this is a make-or-break season for the Houston brass). The Raiders are, in these terms, three-times as poorly operated as the Patriots."

[Crow]

Another football guy upstairs would have changed what?

It would have given the Raiders the possibility of having one competent football guy in the decision making process. They don't have that right now.

[Crow]

And speaking of beancounters....

Al is from the pre-salary cap era. The salary cap is so complicated and convoluted that many teams have a person who's main job is understanding the damn thing.

Arizona went to the Super Bowl and they're $41 million under the cap. We won 5 games and we're only about $5 million under. What's wrong with this picture? Someone in the organization isn't very good at allocating money to players who will help us win. According to this article (http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/06/29/more-moneyball-the-economics-of-wins-and-losses/), we're dead last in dollars spent per win. And we're pretty much the only NFL team without a bona fide GM. Coincidence?

Quote from the article:
"The bottom quarter of the league all spent roughly twice as much per win as the Pats, and all of those clubs, save the Houston Texans, have made coaching and/or management changes in the past year (it also explains why some believe this is a make-or-break season for the Houston brass). The Raiders are, in these terms, three-times as poorly operated as the Patriots."

Quoted For :bugeye:

[hawaiianboy]

This team desparately needs a strong front office presence to work with and counteract Al.

Yep... I don't think it's a coincidence that we've managed to plunge down to the bowels of the NFL once Bruce Allen left... Bruce may have been only primarily a contracts and cap guy, and he surely wasn't in Ron Wolf's league as a talent evaluator, but he was the perfect and much needed buffer between owner and head coach... The guy that knew how to smooth things over and be the voice of reason...

I believe Kiffin could have been a really good hire had we had a good buffer between he and Al... Kiffin isn't afraid to speak his mind or have his own idea of how things should be run and I think he is a very good talent evaluator... Had there been a buffer there to help him work through his growing pains and lack of tact, I think we could have had a similar ying and yang with him and Al that we saw with Gru and Al... There needed to be someone there that could have said that "I know you were promised this when you were hired" or "I know you want to do this", but let me see what I can work out and see if a compromise can be reached...

I think we do better as an organization when we have a situation where there is a coach that will go tit for tat with Al a little than when we have guys that are merely extensions of Al and his preferences... That is one of the reasons I would have personally preferred Jim Harbaugh to Cable...

The reality is an 80 year old man is just not going to put in the kind of time and energy that is needed to be devoted to today's NFL... I don't think there is any question that Bill Belichick and the Pats have been the ideal as far as franchises go lately, but even as great as Belichick is, he was surrounded by Scott Pioli and Tom Dimitroff...

As much as most of us would like to see a Bill Parcell's type brought in to help Al, I doubt we'll ever see a highly thought of football guy added because I think Al would view him as a threat rather than a compliment to him... I was thinking maybe a guy like Herm Edwards would be a good fit in a Bruce Allen buffer role... He wasn't much as a head coach, but I think he has the personality, likability and calmness to work with and talk Al down as necessary without being threatening to Al's role as the alpha dog... He also has the prerequisite "Grew up a Raider fan factor"...

[TheMadStork]

Hmmm, Edwards never would have crossed my mind, but it doesn't sound like a bad idea once you think about it...with the caveat that he's not allowed near anything having to do with challenges or clock management. He could never quite get the knack of either of those.

[Crow]

No personnel decisions either.

Actually, no. Let Herm be a position coach for a college team. He'll be good at that.

[Birdwell]

Bird...

I have to disagree a little here. Yes the players are the ones who win games but when Ron Wolf was here we had a lot of success. Al Davis must have valued his opinion and while we will never know how the actual decisions were made I think having that extra buffer with a guy who was a football man was very helpful. Now Al does it all in a vacuum. Does Cable have much pull with Al? I doubt it seriously. Al's making all the decisions and falling aback on the only way he knows that was successful for him. ...

Anyway, I think it's fair to say that Al is operating the same way he has for 40 years. The fact that things have changed in the NFL and that we don't have a bunch of 'great players' doesn't seem to be factored into the equation.

XB,

Don't disagree with a lot of what you have here. The extra buffer, a guy to bounce things off of (and the guy has to have serious football knowledge to keep up with Davis), would have been a good thing to have. Dunno what the conversations were around the draft, we agree on that. We've been over that no one on this board except for Xplosive wanted Bey at our pick, and I wanted Raji most, then Monroe. (The whole mantra about the ZBS is that you don't need super top guys to run it well -- though it is helpful to have them.)

Hard to tell how much pull Cable has with Davis. The drafting of every guy we took, though, is consistent with what Cable has wanted. "You pass to score points," Cable said. He also wants to be a run-first team. How's that work? Vertical stretch, so we draft Bey and Murphy. What's been the biggest position weakness on the Raiders for the past six seasons? Saftey, so we pick Mitchell. Next biggest weakness? SAM LB, so we draft Sulak, Norris, and Al calls a UDFA TE to switch him to LB. Can we stop the run? No, so draft Shaughnessy, a run-stopping DE, because oustide contain has been among the biggest problems. Zach Miller could do a ton more damage in the passing game if he could get out instead of blocking, and Cable announced prior to the draft that the Raiders were looking at more 2 TE sets for power running. So draft the TE from Iowa.

Were there other priorities? Sure. O-line for one. Having signed Barnes and Pears, with the emergence of Henderson, it is conceivable that the decision was made that the guys they had would do. Am I comfortable with that? No, but I'm not there, and O-line play is not among the things I know well how to evaluate. Ditto D-line. Signing Ryan Boschetti was the sum of offseason activity there, except for the drafting of Shaugnessy and the UDFA signing of that kid from Harvard. I am fairly convinced that the run D problem was gap discipline more than lack of talent. Maybe I'm wrong, and that would mean the Raiders are, too.

This is not intended as an apology for bad drafts, poor personnel decisions, or anything else. Just a possible analysis explaining that Cable is bit more plugged into the personnel decision-making than people give him credit for.

Oh, and MadStork, Davis made that statement at the firing of Kiffin. My question was what would have been different if Davis had hired sucha guy between then and now.

[TheMadStork]

Oh, and MadStork, Davis made that statement at the firing of Kiffin. My question was what would have been different if Davis had hired sucha guy between then and now.

My bad. I thought it was more of a general rhetorical question.

[Crow]

Hard to tell how much pull Cable has with Davis. The drafting of every guy we took, though, is consistent with what Cable has wanted.

That was a classic Al Davis draft through and through. Cable says what Al tells him to say. Let's not give the new puppet too much credit. That draft proves he has almost no pull.

[Postmaster]

That was a classic Al Davis draft through and through. Cable says what Al tells him to say. Let's not give the new puppet too much credit. That draft proves he has almost no pull.

I concur.

[Sleet]

It would have given the Raiders the possibility of having one competent football guy in the decision making process. They don't have that right now.

Give me a break. While I agree with Bones (and thus disagree with Bird) in that a personnel guy is sorely needed, "one competent football guy in the decision making process"? Really?

Okay, how did Al find Schilens in the 7th, O'Neal and Scott in the 6th, Richardson in the 5th, Bush and Branch in the 4th?

That's 4 projected starters, 2 contributing players, plus Bowie and Holland in 10 picks. The only players Al completely missed on in the last 4 rounds in '07 and '08 drafts were Shields (injury, blame the doctors) and Eric Frampton (safety Kiffin wanted). I'll compare that success in the last 4 rounds of the '07 and '08 drafts with any team.

Al's problem, this year, to me, was Cable not tempering Al. Cable didn't know how to work the draft. Yes, he was stuck with DHB and likely told he had to draft Mitchell. Al likely targeted the other players, too. But figuring out how to get Al's guys, in addition to other guys, at the right time, was the trick. Not trading down in the 1st is one thing. Consistently reaching in each other round (and ending up cutting Sulak) is another. It speaks of rookie mistakes in the draft, to me, not a problem with Al's talent evaluations. Al just overspent for what he was getting, which, to me, speaks to a problem in managing Al.

[Postmaster]

Give me a break. While I agree with Bones (and thus disagree with Bird) in that a personnel guy is sorely needed, "one competent football guy in the decision making process"? Really?

Okay, how did Al find Schilens in the 7th, O'Neal and Scott in the 6th, Richardson in the 5th, Bush and Branch in the 4th?

That's 4 projected starters, 2 contributing players, plus Bowie and Holland in 10 picks. The only players Al completely missed on in the last 4 rounds in '07 and '08 drafts was Shields (injury, blame the doctors) and Eric Frampton (safety Kiffin wanted).

Al's problem, this year, to me, was Cable not tempering Al. Cable didn't know how to work the draft. Yes, he was stuck with DHB and likely told he had to draft Mitchell. Al likely targeted the other players, too. But figuring out how to get those guys, in addition to other guys, was the trick. Not trading down in the 1st is one thing. Consistently reaching in each other round (and ending up cutting Sulak) is another. It speaks of rookie mistakes in the draft.

Sleet did you not see the thread about our draft history? It is down right abysmal.
The 2007 and 2008 drafts are anomalies as far as the team's draft history going back 30-40 years.
One might say that the 07 and 08 drafts look to be successful because of Kiffin. Even though I would hate to give him credit for anything being that he is a supreme douche bag.

[Sleet]

PM: I've lamented Al's drafts for years (both at the Merc and old NFL forums).

The #1 reason why the Raiders imploded after the SuperBowl was Al's poor drafting, without a doubt. It was not the loss of Gruden and Allen (see Tampa) (although not being able to replace Gruden was likely the #2 reason). Al didn't draft well when Gruden and Allen were here, either.

Al made a great trade for Gruden: 2 1st, 2 2nds, plus $$$. Al's problem was that few, if any, of those extra picks turned into anything.

So, I'm not defending Al. I'm just calling a spade a spade. In '07 and '08 Al did well. And I do think Kiffin deserves credit for that. Becuase, it seems to me, the '09 draft looks more like pre-Kiffin drafts. And I don't like Kiffin. But somebody managed to find talent in the later rounds, without reaching for that talent too early.

Had Al drafted Mitchell in the 3rd, O'Shucks in the 4th, Norris in the 6th, people would have been far more excited about this year's draft. We could have kept Brace (in the 2nd) and no Sulak (wasted pick) in the 6th. The '09 draft would have looked more like the last two drafts. We would have had several "Murphy's," not just one.

This goes back to the original post: Al needs a GM guy. He can't do it buy himself. But who can? My guess is, couple Al with a good personnel guy, who knows how to work the draft, then Al would do better than other NFL owners, even with his love for speed, big arms and guys looking good coming off the bus.

[TheMadStork]

Al just overspent for what he was getting, which, to me, speaks to a problem in managing Al.

I have to disagree with you on that being Cable's fault. The head coach (especially a rookie head coach) has enough to do without having the added responsibility of keeping the owner/GM (his boss) from doing stupid things. To paraphrase "Who watches the Watchmen?", "Who manages the manager?". With the short shelf life Raider coaches have, and seeing what happened to Kiffin when he tried to extend his authority, Cable would have to be nuts to try to tell Al how to run a draft.

[RaiderJF]

I have to disagree with you on that being Cable's fault. The head coach (especially a rookie head coach) has enough to do without having the added responsibility of keeping the owner/GM (his boss) from doing stupid things. To paraphrase "Who watches the Watchmen?", "Who manages the manager?". With the short shelf life Raider coaches have, and seeing what happened to Kiffin when he tried to extend his authority, Cable would have to be nuts to try to tell Al how to run a draft.

And that is the problem...

[Sleet]

Well, that didn't work too well for Calahan, Norv and Shell, did it? Kiffin's problem was not pushing back on Al, but was wanting out/away from Al. Had Kiffin wanted to be a Raider, Kiffin's pushing back would have been the best thing for the organization. See Gruden (Gruden, though, had the benefit of Allen).

Yes, Cable would be far better off if there was a GM between him and Al, but there isn't. Becuase there isn't, Cable has to work within the structure he has. That structure is Al. And, history proves, if you just go out and draft off Al's board, well, you are not going to do too well, and your tenure as coach will be a short one.

Cable, to me, was too afraid, as you say, to take the risk and not draft Mitchell in the 2nd. He knew Mitchell as not worth the #8 pick in the 2nd round, but Cable didn't have the stones to draft Michell at #7 in the 3rd, try to draft O'Shucks in the 4th, and trade into the 5th for Norris, as somebody wanted Myers and Sulak, thus without a 5th, Norris had to be taken in the 4th. Cable got Al's guys for sure. He just didn't help himself or the team as much as he could have. And he needs to take some blame for that. Being a "yes" man is not how to succeed in the NFL, even under Al.

My point is, people should stop giving Cable a free pass, i.e., he's doing the best he can under the circumstances. I like Cable. I think he is doing a good job. Cable's problem, he didn't know enough and/or have enough experience in the draft, to know how to avoid making bad decisions, i.e., how to get Al's guys at the right point, plus a couple of other picks along the way.

[CrossBones]

Dude you talk as if Cable had a say in who was drafted.

He didn't make the picks. He had no say in who was picked. Al Davis did what he wanted and what we got is what we got.

Cable watched TV like the rest of us...shook his head and waved the flag the next day.

[Postmaster]

Dude you talk as if Cable had a say in who was drafted.

He didn't make the picks. He had no say in who was picked. Al Davis did what he wanted and what we got is what we got.

Cable watched TV like the rest of us...shook his head and waved the flag the next day.

Pretty much......but what are his options? Go the way of Kiffin or try and let it work itself out? I give Cable credit for how he is dealing with Al. It can't be easy.

[Crow]

Give me a break. While I agree with Bones (and thus disagree with Bird) in that a personnel guy is sorely needed, "one competent football guy in the decision making process"? Really?

Yes. Really.

Okay, how did Al find Schilens in the 7th, O'Neal and Scott in the 6th, Richardson in the 5th, Bush and Branch in the 4th?

Dumb luck?

Bush was a no brainer who shouldn't have fallen that far in the first place. Most likely, that was a guy Kiffin pushed to get. Bush doesn't have the 40 time to peak Al's interest.

Richardson in the 5th: Wow. He found a below average DE. He must be a genius.

That's 4 projected starters, 2 contributing players, plus Bowie and Holland in 10 picks. The only players Al completely missed on in the last 4 rounds in '07 and '08 drafts were Shields (injury, blame the doctors) and Eric Frampton (safety Kiffin wanted). I'll compare that success in the last 4 rounds of the '07 and '08 drafts with any team.

Don't reach so much. You'll pull your own arm out of socket.

Al's problem, this year, to me, was Cable not tempering Al. Cable didn't know how to work the draft. Yes, he was stuck with DHB and likely told he had to draft Mitchell. Al likely targeted the other players, too. But figuring out how to get Al's guys, in addition to other guys, at the right time, was the trick. Not trading down in the 1st is one thing. Consistently reaching in each other round (and ending up cutting Sulak) is another. It speaks of rookie mistakes in the draft, to me, not a problem with Al's talent evaluations. Al just overspent for what he was getting, which, to me, speaks to a problem in managing Al.

Al's problem is that he's incompetent and too much of an egomaniac to accept that. That's it. That's where Oakland's problems begin and end. Get rid of Davis, and this team has a chance.

[CrossBones]

Agree Postmaster. Cable is in an impossible spot. Win or you're out. Make due with the players that are given to you. It's why nobody wants to coach in Oakland. It's probably why Bill Parcells, Wizenhunt, Payton etc. wanted nothing to do with the situation in Oakland. Even Denny Green came out of an interview with Al saying ``...WOW" and he's a reported 'friend' of Al Davis.

I'll be surprised if Cable turns this around and survives. But, don't get me wrong I'm pulling for him 110%.

[Postmaster]

Agree Postmaster. Cable is in an impossible spot. Win or you're out. Make due with the players that are given to you. It's why nobody wants to coach in Oakland. It's probably why Bill Parcells, Wizenhunt, Payton etc. wanted nothing to do with the situation in Oakland. Even Denny Green came out of an interview with Al saying ``...WOW" and he's a reported 'friend' of Al Davis.

I'll be surprised if Cable turns this around and survives. But, don't get me wrong I'm pulling for him 110%.

Madden, Flores, and Shell Version. 1 (to an extent) made it work but every coach since then has been an outsider and has butted heads with Al because of his hands on approach. If Cable is smart he will realize this and try to learn the ways of the Raiders and emulate the successful coaches. Yes he will be labeled a puppet but Madden was also considered a puppet so that is not so bad. I truly believe Cable realizes this and that is why I feel he has a chance.

[Crow]

Agree Postmaster. Cable is in an impossible spot. Win or you're out. Make due with the players that are given to you. It's why nobody wants to coach in Oakland. It's probably why Bill Parcells, Wizenhunt, Payton etc. wanted nothing to do with the situation in Oakland. Even Denny Green came out of an interview with Al saying ``...WOW" and he's a reported 'friend' of Al Davis.

I'll be surprised if Cable turns this around and survives. But, don't get me wrong I'm pulling for him 110%.

Kinda like when the pilot is dead, the plane is going down, and the only person who'll jump behind the wheel is a 9 year old girl. You'd love to see a happy ending, but you kinda have to know how it's going to end.

[Birdwell]

There is all the difference in the world between hypothesis and a fact.

It is also damn near impossible to prove a negative. Cable had no influence? Prove it -- and the only way to do that would be for Al Davis or Tim Cable to say so. Absent that proof, it's just a difference of opinions. However much you don't believe mine.

[Postmaster]

There is all the difference in the world between hypothesis and a fact.

It is also damn near impossible to prove a negative. Cable had no influence? Prove it -- and the only way to do that would be for Al Davis or Tim Cable to say so. Absent that proof, it's just a difference of opinions. However much you don't believe mine.

The Kool-Aid is strong in this one.

[Sleet]

Crow: That's so weak.

Yes. Really.

Dumb luck?

Bush was a no brainer who shouldn't have fallen that far in the first place. Most likely, that was a guy Kiffin pushed to get. Bush doesn't have the 40 time to peak Al's interest.

Richardson in the 5th: Wow. He found a below average DE. He must be a genius.

Funny how you didn't mention Scott and Schilens, two classic Al picks (size/speed guys), in the 6th and 7th rounds. And its not about being a genius. It is about being competent. Al put two back-to-back good drafts together. Just say it. It won't kill you. Too bad it looks like he reverted in '09.



Don't reach so much. You'll pull your own arm out of socket.

That's it. One smart ass remark?



Al's problem is that he's incompetent and too much of an egomaniac to accept that. That's it. That's where Oakland's problems begin and end. Get rid of Davis, and this team has a chance.

Get real. Al has put more people into the HOF than any other owner/GM in football. He is an egomaniac, and his biggest problem. But "incompetent"?

Your post was incompetent. You're a hater. So be it. Just say it.

[Crow]

There is all the difference in the world between hypothesis and a fact.

It is also damn near impossible to prove a negative. Cable had no influence? Prove it -- and the only way to do that would be for Al Davis or Tim Cable to say so. Absent that proof, it's just a difference of opinions. However much you don't believe mine.

I believe there's an invisible, magical teapot circling the earth. Prove it's not there.

[Sleet]

Dude you talk as if Cable had a say in who was drafted.

He didn't make the picks. He had no say in who was picked. Al Davis did what he wanted and what we got is what we got.

Cable watched TV like the rest of us...shook his head and waved the flag the next day.

I just don't buy it. Too easy of an excuse. You are either a good HC or not. If Cable wants to be a good HC, he has to impose his will, at least somewhat, on Al, period, end of story. He has to make himself irreplaceable.

Madden would say that he had the best HC job in the game b/c there was nobody between him and the owner. Well, ShannaRat had that situation, too, in Denver. So did Holmgrin in Seattle, etc.

I would prefer a GM, but Oakland doesn't have one. That being the case, Cable has to step up. He didn't this year, and it shows. I hope he survives to next year. But until he (or somebody else) does (or Al moves on), we'll have to rely upon "dump luck" again.

Cable should have taken advantage of the fact that Al couldn't replace him. The '08 draft was his. The '09 draft, well, Cable might not see it.

I know everyone hates Kiffin (me included, I went to UCLA, and I know SC fans that didn't like Kiffin when he was there; they thought he was a lying twerp, could not be trusted, and laughed when Al hired him).

But Kiffin knew what he wanted. He had strong opinions, including about talent and value, and went for it. He didn't get fired for the '07 or '08 drafts. That's was the best thing he participated in as HC.

But, according to everyone else, it was just Al. Kiffin had nothing to do with it. Of course, I don't know. I was not there. I just know that I like the drafts in '07 and '08 a lot more than prior to '07 and '09, when we just had "yes" men as HC. I don't want Cable to be a "yes" man.

[Crow]

The Kool-Aid is strong in this one.

The Jonestown segment of Raider Nation does seem to have some representation here. I may need to load up my ignore list before I get in trouble. :D

[Sleet]

Agree Postmaster. Cable is in an impossible spot. Win or you're out. Make due with the players that are given to you. It's why nobody wants to coach in Oakland. It's probably why Bill Parcells, Wizenhunt, Payton etc. wanted nothing to do with the situation in Oakland. Even Denny Green came out of an interview with Al saying ``...WOW" and he's a reported 'friend' of Al Davis.

I'll be surprised if Cable turns this around and survives. But, don't get me wrong I'm pulling for him 110%.

I agree with you and PM here, except I think there is better young talent on the team than there has been in a while, so Cable does have a better chance to turn things around.

[Crow]

Speaking of loading up my ignore list, I see some red font lurking.

[Sleet]

There is all the difference in the world between hypothesis and a fact.

It is also damn near impossible to prove a negative. Cable had no influence? Prove it -- and the only way to do that would be for Al Davis or Tim Cable to say so. Absent that proof, it's just a difference of opinions. However much you don't believe mine.

Bird: I think Cable's job is one of the most difficult in the NFL for the reasons PM and Bones have stated. And I think it does undermine a HC. I also agree with PM that Cable appears better suited for the job than his predessessors. However, I agree with you that both Cable and Al deserve blame for the '09 draft. It is not 100% Al, otherwise Al would have to get 100% of the credit in '07 and '08. I don't buy that. Cable needs to be stronger. I think he was just out of his league last year, going through the draft for the first time, without a GM, just Al.

[Postmaster]

I just don't buy it. Too easy of an excuse. You are either a good HC or not. If Cable wants to be a good HC, he has to impose his will, at least somewhat, on Al, period, end of story. He has to make himself irreplaceable.

Madden would say that he had the best HC job in the game b/c there was nobody between him and the owner. Well, ShannaRat had that situation, too, in Denver. So did Holmgrin in Seattle, etc.

I would prefer a GM, but Oakland doesn't have one. That being the case, Cable has to step up. He didn't this year, and it shows. I hope he survives to next year. But until he (or somebody else) does (or Al moves on), we'll have to rely upon "dump luck" again.

Cable should have taken advantage of the fact that Al couldn't replace him. The '08 draft was his. The '09 draft, well, Cable might not see it.

I know everyone hates Kiffin (me included, I went to UCLA, and I know SC fans that didn't like Kiffin when he was there; they thought he was a lying twerp, could not be trusted, and laughed when Al hired him).

But Kiffin knew what he wanted. He had strong opinions, including about talent and value, and went for it. He didn't get fired for the '07 or '08 drafts. That's was the best thing he participated in as HC.

But, according to everyone else, it was just Al. Kiffin had nothing to do with it. Of course, I don't know. I was not there. I just know that I like the drafts in '07 and '08 a lot more than prior to '07 and '09, when we just had "yes" men as HC. I don't want Cable to be a "yes" man.

Kiffin was too young and dumb to realize what he was getting into. Veteran coaches won't touch this job because they know they are neutered when they walk in the door. I pray Cable knows what he is doing in his dealings with Al and I hope he is up to the task of puppet master because that is the only way he will succeed. And those are the facts.

[Postmaster]

Bird: I think Cable's job is one of the most difficult in the NFL for the reasons PM and Bones have stated. And I think it does undermine a HC. I also agree with PM that Cable appears better suited for the job than his predessessors. However, I agree with you that both Cable and Al deserve blame for the '09 draft. It is not 100% Al, otherwise Al would have to get 100% of the credit in '07 and '08. I don't buy that. Cable needs to be stronger. I think he was just out of his league last year, going through the draft for the first time, without a GM, just Al.

Yo Sleet the 2009 draft isn't a failure yet. The probability is high but I am not writing it off yet.

[Sleet]

The Kool-Aid is strong in this one.

Nice. Serve me up. :D

[Sleet]

Speaking of loading up my ignore list, I see some red font lurking.

Crow: Lets see, in the other thread, you said take it here. But here, you say, I'm going to take my ball and go home? That's pretty whimpy shit.

Don't get me wrong, your posts are very entertaining. I enjoy reading them. Keep them coming. But as a Jonestown, Kool-Aid drinker, let me be the first to remind you, your shit stinks, too. Oh, yea, if you're going to parse one of my posts in the future, be prepared to back it up with more than a smart looking avatar. :)

[CrossBones]

Cable as with Madden before him can survive. He just has to win. Cable, however, doesn't have the players Madden did. Madden knew how to handle those players in that day and it worked out for him.

Winning is everything for an NFL head coach -- Especially in Oakland.

Let's just hope somehow, someway Cable can get this team winning and very quickly. He doesn't have a lot of time I'm afraid.

Again the game on September 14 while early will set the tone for the season. A 20+ point loss on National TV isn't going to do much for the players, coach and fans. They really need to win that game or at the least be very very competitive.

[Sleet]

To me, Burgess' holdout is more than just about wanting out of Oakland, I think Burgess realizes that he's being phased out of Oakland by Ellis, Scott, Richardson and O'Shucks.

Burgness doesn't want a deminishing role. He doesn't want to be viewed as an old Edwards. Burgess wants, and needs, to start and have a big year, so he can get a big contract (or at least a better contract). And he can't afford a pre-season injury.

My guess, other Raiders players will see that. Although a bummer, football is a business. Ellis, Scott, Richardson and O'Shucks just have to step up and stay healthy.

It will be interesting to see if Al forces Burgess to show up, and forces Burgess on Cable. Burgess needs to excell whereever he is at to get more than a veteran minimum contract next year. If he plays for Al, that means sacking the QB, which he'll do. I think MassRaider is right about that.

[Crow]

Crow: Lets see, in the other thread, you said take it here. But here, you say, I'm going to take my ball and go home? That's pretty whimpy shit.

Don't get me wrong, your posts are very entertaining. I enjoy reading them. Keep them coming. But as a Jonestown, Kool-Aid drinker, let me be the first to remind you, your shit stinks, too. Oh, yea, if you're going to parse one of my posts in the future, be prepared to back it up with more than a smart looking avatar. :)

Or not.

[hawaiianboy]

This subject is like the Lethal Weapon or Diehard of Raider message boards... Tune in anytime over the last decade and it's likely to be playing over and over...


Just start the god damn season already...

[Rupert]

Dumb luck?

Bush was a no brainer who shouldn't have fallen that far in the first place. Most likely, that was a guy Kiffin pushed to get. Bush doesn't have the 40 time to peak Al's interest.
Dude pedal that, "Dumb picks are Al, good picks are someone else" bullshit to the haters man. That fucking stupid line is just that, fucking stupid. It's either ALL AL or not. You keep trying it both ways. You must like it from behind. Cripes! :D

edit: forgot the smilie.

[Madturk]

This subject is like the Lethal Weapon or Diehard of Raider message boards... Tune in anytime over the last decade and it's likely to be playing over and over...


Just start the god damn season already...

No shit, just play the fucking game.

[Crow]

Dude pedal that, "Dumb picks are Al, good picks are someone else" bullshit to the haters man. That fucking stupid line is just that, fucking stupid. It's either ALL AL or not. You keep trying it both ways. You must like it from behind. Cripes! :D

edit: forgot the smilie.

Just calling it down the middle, man. Somebody has to.

[Diceq]

Bird: I think Cable's job is one of the most difficult in the NFL for the reasons PM and Bones have stated. And I think it does undermine a HC. I also agree with PM that Cable appears better suited for the job than his predessessors. However, I agree with you that both Cable and Al deserve blame for the '09 draft. It is not 100% Al, otherwise Al would have to get 100% of the credit in '07 and '08. I don't buy that. Cable needs to be stronger. I think he was just out of his league last year, going through the draft for the first time, without a GM, just Al.

Blame or credit...The results aren't in yet:)

[RaiderRobert]

I don't get how anybody can rate the '09 draft... Good or Bad... Guys haven't suited up, we have no clue how these guys are going to do. Insane...

[SoCalRaider]

it was conceivable that Davis had reached a point where he could accept someone capable of protecting him from his worst instincts.

Even Al concluded as much, only to be overruled by his ego, according to people who deal with him regularly.


I actually think that's mildly encouraging that Al changed his mind. It's much better than my natural intuition that Al got laughed out of the room the second he offered the "exec" job to that special someone.

[SoCalRaider]

Okay, how did Al find Schilens in the 7th, O'Neal and Scott in the 6th, Richardson in the 5th, Bush and Branch in the 4th?

Wow. That's some impressive shit right there.... That shit is the equivalent of banging a 48 year old prostitute and going home and saying you scored.

Maybe we should ignore that future Hall of Famer Phillip Buchanon flashed more in his rookie season than all of that shit combined. Can somebody grab a warm washcloth so we can massage Al's balls for cleverly not drafting the other NFL Hall of Famer he really wanted, Jeremy Shockey, in favor of NFL icon Buchanon.

Long live Al.

[Sleet]

Who's rating the players drafted in '09?

You don't need to "rate" players to have an informed opinion that value was left on the table, not just in the 1st round, but across the board in this draft. The players that were selected by in large could have been drafted later, period. Any real dispute there?

So, even if Al comes out smelling like a rose, he spent too much for DHB, Mitchell, O'Shucks, Norris. He could have looked even smarter. At best, these players play to expectations, not exceed it, unlike Richardson, Scott, Schilens, O'Neal, etc.

[Raider Bill]

Dude pedal that, "Dumb picks are Al, good picks are someone else" bullshit to the haters man. That fucking stupid line is just that, fucking stupid. It's either ALL AL or not. You keep trying it both ways. You must like it from behind. Cripes! :D

edit: forgot the smilie.

Who picked all these terrible coaches?

You didn't need to be Kreskin to see that Turner and Clueless Art Shell and his magic notepad were disasters waiting to happen.

[Sleet]

Wow. That's some impressive shit right there.... That shit is the equivalent of banging a 48 year old prostitute and going home and saying you scored.

Maybe we should ignore that future Hall of Famer Phillip Buchanon flashed more in his rookie season than all of that shit combined. Can somebody grab a warm washcloth so we can massage Al's balls for cleverly not drafting the other NFL Hall of Famer he really wanted, Jeremy Shockey, in favor of NFL icon Buchanon.

Long live Al.

Phillip Buchanon, why stop there? If you're going to go back and look at other post-Gruden drafts, there's plenty of bad picks to choose from. (If fact, Huffs still on the roster.)

Point out where I (or anyone) said otherwise, or where anyone other than Al was faulted for those poor picks, which are the primary reason the Raiders have been losing (the second being Al's inability to replace Gruden).

Of course, that wasn't the point. Somebody drafted well in the late rounds in '07 and '08 (and hopefully, in the early rounds with JR and DMAC, too). Can't refute that, so you mock. I get it.

[Rupert]

Who picked all these terrible coaches?

You didn't need to be Kreskin to see that Turner and Clueless Art Shell and his magic notepad were disasters waiting to happen.

Same dumbass who picked all the good ones. Duh!

[Birdwell]

Who's rating the players drafted in '09?

You don't need to "rate" players to have an informed opinion that value was left on the table, not just in the 1st round, but across the board in this draft. The players that were selected by in large could have been drafted later, period. Any real dispute there?

So, even if Al comes out smelling like a rose, he spent too much for DHB, Mitchell, O'Shucks, Norris. He could have looked even smarter. At best, these players play to expectations, not exceed it, unlike Richardson, Scott, Schilens, O'Neal, etc.

Even Rich Eisen would dispute you on Mitchell.

As for the rest, DHB would not have been available at our second round pick, and there is no guaranty Shaugnessy is there in the fourth, either. Norris, I can't say anything about, you maye well be right. But on the other two, you have to have someone willing to give you good value if you want to trade down, and few teams want to trade up. All signs were the Giants wanted DHB. Once you pass the early second round, things get weird, all sorts of guys get tacken higher than anyone thought they would.

[Raider Outlaw]

Allen was a contract negotiater and schmoozer. More of the problem lies with the actual scouting, which Allen doesn't do. he's a former sports agent for God sake.

I've long called for Al to find another personnel man like Wolfe, but Why these mythological accounts of people blow them up to be more than what they wre is beyond me.

Lombardi has an abrasive personality by all accounts and shouldn't be heading anybody's personnel department for that reason alone. Al's ego is enough for one organization, don't you think?

Furthermore, what significant players did he bring to the fold during his time in the number 1 executive role in Alameda? contrary to the bullshit you read, Wolfe proves that Al does listen to those around him, so running away from some players that you endorsed 90% of the time, trying to pin it all on Al, is pretty cowardly. Otherwise, why was he drawing a pay check for almost 10 years?

His biggest contribution to the Raiders was wanting Bobby Petrino (coincidentally another shitty personality who happens to be one of his best friends) to be our HC. While the other choice (Shell) was a disaster, what did you think of that petrino shit in Atlanta?

he'd be employed by the patriots if anyone felt differently about his evaluation skills because under the original Bellichick regime is where he came from to begin with.

I think they've suffered as Poole rightly states...since wolfe left for Green Bay.

Al's never aptly replaced him, period. You can even go back to those couple of years that he left to head Tampa. The Raiders dipped during that moment as well, while Tampa went from an 0-14 team to playing in an NFC championship game in 3 years.




So many of us have been on this point since Bruce Allen left and again when Lombardi left. That being said, the 2007 draft went well...unfortunatley Al fired alot of the guys involved.

There were some rumors about the Eagles personell guy looking to move...I was hoping for him...Could be worse...there were Matt Millen rumors!

[Raider Outlaw]

yet another myth that sounds better than the truth I suppose.

Paul Hackett, who worked with Gannon in KC, recommended Gannon to Al because he thought he'd fit Gruden's offense. In turn, Al sold Gruden on the guy, and Gruden sold Gannon on leaving KC to come to Oakland.

Therefore, how Al hated Gannon is beyond me.

it's bad enough the media often uses the mythological accounts of raider history, but our fans should bring more discretion to the table.



Stabler was never known for his arm, but he could read a defense like it was a cheap paperback. The moral of the story being: when you only look at measureables and ignore intangibles, you're screwed. Which is, I think, the main reason that Al has (mainly) ignored linemen at the top of the draft. He doesn't have a way he trusts to measure them. Whereas with WR's and DB's, he can look at his stopwatch. We need a GM who has the skill to judge a player by their performance on the field instead of their 40 time at the combine.

Al wasn't happy about Gru bringing in Gannon, for what I'm guessing is the same reason. You can measure how far a guy can throw the ball, but you can't measure if the guy has the smarts (and balls) to get it where it needs to go.

[Rupert]

yet another myth that sounds better than the truth I suppose.

Paul Hackett, who worked with Gannon in KC, recommended Gannon to Al because he thought he'd fit Gruden's offense. In turn, Al sold Gruden on the guy, and Gruden sold Gannon on leaving KC to come to Oakland.

Therefore, how Al hated Gannon is beyond me.

it's bad enough the media often uses the mythological accounts of raider history, but our fans should bring more discretion to the table.

They can't possibly when they only use the media for their history.

[Raider Outlaw]

What's silly is debating the point about value and all of this nonsense. Al doesn't draft that way, never has. he doesn't trade down. he drafts players that he likes when they are there. He is a measurables guy, which even Ron Wolfe gives him credit to this day for teaching him how to scout. Why complain about who the man is, who he's always been? it's silly.

Trading down to DHB would have been great, but Al has NEVER traded down, which is why I have no idea why there's a debate about it every year. If he hit on the pick, you'll love it.

Had we kept the 7th pick in '05 and drafted Shaune Merriman there, although he "shouldn't" have went there, how would you feel about that pick today? I'd have rather Al have went with his gut and picked Cromarti at 7 in '06 over Huff because I knew he was a special playmaker when at FSU, but it would have been a "reach."

Mario henderson (who I was not a fan of coming out) was considered a "reach" when they traded up for him in the 3rd round. Now, everybody here is believing he's the answer at LT.

If Mike Mitchell is knocking people out in 2 years, who'll give a fuck where he went, when guys like Derrick Gibson and Huff went where they should have and we missed?

The goal is just to get good players on this team.


If you don't like the team philosophy, why are you a fan of the Raiders? It's how the shit worked when Gruden was here, before he was here, after he left. It'll be the team philosophy as long as al's around.

Parcells and Bellichick have had rough moments in their careers, do you think they abandon the 3-4 concept and running the ball? Everyone has their own way of doing things. Green Bay hordes picks and salary cap space, the Redskins trade all of their picks away before the season starts for vets, New England and the Eagles draft players for their systems then put them in 7 eyar contracts, hoping to replace them before the deal comes up.

Every organization has their own way of doing shit, and the Raiders way has worked in the past. Why it's not working is because of too many coaches and players washing out during all of the instability.

[Raider Outlaw]

I disagree. he doesn't even really have any leverage. he only had 4 sacks last year and was horrible vs. the run.

I think you can take this one face value, Burgess wants a longer commitment, which isn't forthcoming because he hasn't earned it based on his last 2 campaigns.

To me, Burgess' holdout is more than just about wanting out of Oakland, I think Burgess realizes that he's being phased out of Oakland by Ellis, Scott, Richardson and O'Shucks.

Burgness doesn't want a deminishing role. He doesn't want to be viewed as an old Edwards. Burgess wants, and needs, to start and have a big year, so he can get a big contract (or at least a better contract). And he can't afford a pre-season injury.

My guess, other Raiders players will see that. Although a bummer, football is a business. Ellis, Scott, Richardson and O'Shucks just have to step up and stay healthy.

It will be interesting to see if Al forces Burgess to show up, and forces Burgess on Cable. Burgess needs to excell whereever he is at to get more than a veteran minimum contract next year. If he plays for Al, that means sacking the QB, which he'll do. I think MassRaider is right about that.

[Sleet]

I disagree. he doesn't even really have any leverage. he only had 4 sacks last year and was horrible vs. the run.

I think you can take this one face value, Burgess wants a longer commitment, which isn't forthcoming because he hasn't earned it based on his last 2 campaigns.

Not sure what you disagree with. Who said Burgess had leverage? I certaily don't think Burgess is looking for a commitment from the Raiders at this point. That ship has sailed.

[Sleet]

What's silly is debating the point about value and all of this nonsense. Al doesn't draft that way, never has. he doesn't trade down. he drafts players that he likes when they are there. He is a measurables guy, which even Ron Wolfe gives him credit to this day for teaching him how to scout. Why complain about who the man is, who he's always been? it's silly.

Trading down to DHB would have been great, but Al has NEVER traded down, which is why I have no idea why there's a debate about it every year. If he hit on the pick, you'll love it.

Had we kept the 7th pick in '05 and drafted Shaune Merriman there, although he "shouldn't" have went there, how would you feel about that pick today? I'd have rather Al have went with his gut and picked Cromarti at 7 in '06 over Huff because I knew he was a special playmaker when at FSU, but it would have been a "reach."

Mario henderson (who I was not a fan of coming out) was considered a "reach" when they traded up for him in the 3rd round. Now, everybody here is believing he's the answer at LT.

If Mike Mitchell is knocking people out in 2 years, who'll give a fuck where he went, when guys like Derrick Gibson and Huff went where they should have and we missed?

The goal is just to get good players on this team.


If you don't like the team philosophy, why are you a fan of the Raiders? It's how the shit worked when Gruden was here, before he was here, after he left. It'll be the team philosophy as long as al's around.

Parcells and Bellichick have had rough moments in their careers, do you think they abandon the 3-4 concept and running the ball? Everyone has their own way of doing things. Green Bay hordes picks and salary cap space, the Redskins trade all of their picks away before the season starts for vets, New England and the Eagles draft players for their systems then put them in 7 eyar contracts, hoping to replace them before the deal comes up.

Every organization has their own way of doing shit, and the Raiders way has worked in the past. Why it's not working is because of too many coaches and players washing out during all of the instability.

Good string of posts, but here I have to disagree. You can surmise that Al wanted Scott and Schilens, too, but in '08 Al was more patient and waited until the 6th and 7th to draft them. You don't think they could have been drafted sooner by somebody else?

There's always a risk. My point is, the Al/Cable team, to me, took fewer risks this year. This year, Al/Cable just banked the players targeted on their board, which, to me, reflected "need" more than usual (although I would agree that Al drafts for need and types of players moreso than other GMs).

Call it value, call it taking fewer risks. Sure, I'll be happy if all of these players hit. If DHB plays well (but not up to his 1st round billing) I won't care (unlike others). My point remains, though, that these same players could have been drafted later, and if Cable had more experience, my guess he'd do it differently, still getting the guys on his board. (As to DHB, I was not surprised at all, nor did I expect Al to trade down, although with Monroe, Raji and Crabtree on the board, that couldn't have been too hard).

[Raider Outlaw]

that's where someone with experience in the front office would have helped. However, DHB would have been the first pick regardless, just like jamarcus was the pick 2 years ago and McFadden was the pick last year. When he locks on his first round pick, he can't be swayed...he was the number one player on our board.

I just get tired of people getting upset because we didn't trade down and get "value." He's never traded down. Not sometimes...he's never done it. I'm not saying I'd do it that way or whatever, but I'm saying that's been the way it's always been, even when we were winning, so why do people insist on complaining about something that's not going to change?

Also, with Schillings and Scott, those 2 guys were classic "Raider" picks. They just look much better when they work out. Shcillings wasn't going to be drafted and Scott was a converted TE who'd only played De for one season.

If anything, they were "reaches" as well. had they been cut last year, would you have been surprised?

With Mitchell this year, there has been compelling evidence that the Bears wanted him as much as the Raiders did. If the Raiders scouted him as the guy they wanted, they absolutely did the right thing taking him, whether anybody said, "Who?" on draft day or not.


Good string of posts, but here I have to disagree. You can surmise that Al wanted Scott and Schilens, too, but in '08 Al was more patient and waited until the 6th and 7th to draft them. You don't think they could have been drafted sooner by somebody else?

There's always a risk. My point is, the Al/Cable team, to me, took fewer risks this year. This year, Al/Cable just banked the players targeted on their board, which, to me, reflected "need" more than usual (although I would agree that Al drafts for need and types of players moreso than other GMs).

Call it value, call it taking fewer risks. Sure, I'll be happy if all of these players hit. If DHB plays well (but not up to his 1st round billing) I won't care (unlike others). My point remains, though, that these same players could have been drafted later, and if Cable had more experience, my guess he'd do it differently, still getting the guys on his board. (As to DHB, I was not surprised at all, nor did I expect Al to trade down, although with Monroe, Raji and Crabtree on the board, that couldn't have been too hard).

[Postmaster]

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcwest/0-3-2505/Around-the-AFC-West.html

Oakland

One Bay Area columnist thinks Tom Cable is a good fit for the Raiders.

My take: I agree. Cable wants to be in Oakland. That satisfies him. He is not looking for the next job. He isn't interested in overshadowing (or more importantly) not listening to owner Al Davis. Cable appreciates that he is one of 32 head coaches in the NFL and he is working hard to make the Raiders a winner. Will it work? Who knows; but he is on board with Davis. That counts as a good start in Oakland.

[Crow]

I don't get how anybody can rate the '09 draft... Good or Bad... Guys haven't suited up, we have no clue how these guys are going to do. Insane...

Two words: Mike Mitchell

[Crow]

What's silly is debating the point about value and all of this nonsense. Al doesn't draft that way, never has. he doesn't trade down. he drafts players that he likes when they are there. He is a measurables guy, which even Ron Wolfe gives him credit to this day for teaching him how to scout. Why complain about who the man is, who he's always been? it's silly.

Because he's the worst GM in the NFL and an utter embarrassment to the team, league, sport, and fanbase?

Hey, you asked.

[Sleet]

Because he's the worst GM in the NFL and an utter embarrassment to the team, league, sport, and fanbase?

Please, Mat Millen holds that title. Al, well, pre-'07, Al sure didn't do much to refute your hating, but in '07 and '08 Al has (assuming, of course, JR steps up this year).

[Crow]

Matt Millen got fired, my dear friend. Something Al should have done to himself 20 years ago.

[Sleet]

That's why its good to be the King.

Just can't get worked up about Al. Al is why I am a Raider fan.

For the haters, I just don't understand why they are fans.

[CrossBones]

I have my moments being frustrated with Al Davis. BUT, I also know that it is what it is. Raider Fan has that cross to bear. We get the good with the bad. Either that or it's time to cheer for the Saints but then I guess that didn't work out so good. Once a Raiders Fan always as Raiders Fan...Right Crowsie. ;)

[Crow]

That's why its good to be the King.

Just can't get worked up about Al. Al is why I am a Raider fan.

For the haters, I just don't understand why they are fans.

That's like saying the priest who raped you is the reason you're catholic. That makes no sense at all.

[Sleet]

Nice try. Doesn't wash. Al is the Raiders. A priest isn't the catholic church. Al tries to win, but gets in his own way. Fans have a choice. They are not being raped. You are just in denial. Everything you like about the Raiders is attributable to Al. Just admit it. You love the old fuck, too. Come out of the closet. Why else are you here?

[RaiderIVlife]

I've said it before, I'll probably say it a thousand more time, but Al Davis is the Raiders, every bit as much as the uniforms, the history and the players. The day he goes will be sad day indeed.

Good times or Bad, he is largely what makes the Raiders unique. I hope this franchise has one more legit run before his days are up. I truly do.

[Sleet]

:beerbang:

[poptart]

Good times or Bad, he is largely what makes the Raiders unique. I hope this franchise has one more legit run before his days are up. I truly do.

Ditto.

Football speaking, I want nothing more than I want that.


I love Al and can't find it within me to ever trash that guy without some restraint.

[SoCalRaider]

Phillip Buchanon, why stop there? If you're going to go back and look at other post-Gruden drafts, there's plenty of bad picks to choose from. (If fact, Huffs still on the roster.)

Point out where I (or anyone) said otherwise, or where anyone other than Al was faulted for those poor picks, which are the primary reason the Raiders have been losing (the second being Al's inability to replace Gruden).

Of course, that wasn't the point. Somebody drafted well in the late rounds in '07 and '08 (and hopefully, in the early rounds with JR and DMAC, too). Can't refute that, so you mock. I get it.

I'm amused the post went over your head. The comparison to Buchanon had nothing to with what you just inferred. It was simply pointing out how stupid it is to judge a player or a draft after 1 or 2 seasons (unless you're calling out all-time NFL bust JRussell). Buchanon falling on his face after a pretty solid rookie year was a case in point.

[Sleet]

I'm amused the post went over your head. The comparison to Buchanon had nothing to with what you just inferred. It was simply pointing out how stupid it is to judge a player or a draft after 1 or 2 seasons (unless you're calling out all-time NFL bust JRussell). Buchanon falling on his face after a pretty solid rookie year was a case in point.

What went over whose head? Tell me, who's evaluating players? Show me where I said DHB won't be worth the #7, or Mitchell a 2nd round pick, or O'Shucks a 3rd, or Norris a 4th?

That wasn't my point, genius. I guess it went right over your head, you think? How is talking about risk taking in the draft (or the lack thereof) evaluating players?

My criticism was of Cable. By appearences (not being in the room myself), he was a "yes" man for Al, just drafting off Al's board. Cable, to me, was too inexperienced to wait, or unwilling to risk waiting, and/or didn't have the pull to come up with and execute a plan that had us waiting, to get Al's guys later in the draft, where, for all we know, they would have been.

Agree or disagree, it has nothing to do with evaluating players. It has to do with playing poker. When do you draft the players you want? Where you think they are worth? Where your competition thinks they are worth? Or somewhere along that spectrum.

To me, Cable drafted Al's players early, as his sole goal was getting those guys, period, end of story, not maximizing what else he could have gotten, and risk possibly missing out on one of Al's guys.

As to your Phillip Buc reference, the difference is, with Schilens (7th), Scott (6th), Richardson (5th), if they bust, we've lost a lot less in terms of opportunity. However, with respect to Mitchell (2nd), O'Schucks (3rd) and Norris (4th), we would lose a bit more. After drafting Richardson in the 5th and Branch in the 4th, I just wonder why Cable thought he had to get Mitchell in the 2nd, O'Schucks in the 3rd, and Norris in the 4th. If it was Al's decision, why did Al risk waiting for Richardson and Branch the years before?

[007]

Crow:

Good lord this shit gets old.

Every other post?

Seriously?

We FUCKING GET IT.

You hate Al Davis, you refused to watch games in recent years, you hated the draft picks the last two seasons, we're doomed, the sky is falling and we suck.

Move on. Get a new gig.

I mean, even I don't pimp the Raiders anymore. I was an optimist, now I'm a realist ( I 'thank' you for hitting me with a 2x4 over and over in dozens of different forums). Doesnt mean I'm going to sit there and trash the team every chance I get. Its training camp...Lets just take it slow and see what we have before we start this shit all over again.

I don't even like coming here anymore.

[Crow]

Al is the Raiders.

That's exactly the level of stupidity that's led to this team's plummet into irrelevance. The old fool actually believes that line. That's his quote, sadly enough.

If he's the Raiders, he needs to swap that walker for a set of pads and learn to fucking tackle.

He's a sad old man who stole a football team from a partner who trusted him. There's a real role model. :rolleyes:

[Crow]

Crow:

Good lord this shit gets old.

Every other post?

Seriously?

We FUCKING GET IT.

You hate Al Davis, you refused to watch games in recent years, you hated the draft picks the last two seasons, we're doomed, the sky is falling and we suck.

Move on. Get a new gig.

I mean, even I don't pimp the Raiders anymore. I was an optimist, now I'm a realist ( I 'thank' you for hitting me with a 2x4 over and over in dozens of different forums). Doesnt mean I'm going to sit there and trash the team every chance I get. Its training camp...Lets just take it slow and see what we have before we start this shit all over again.

I don't even like coming here anymore.

Bye.

[007]

Bye.

What can I say.

You suck the internet life right out of me.

Peace out.

[Crow]

Don't let the router hit you in the ass on the way out.

[Sleet]

That's exactly the level of stupidity that's led to this team's plummet into irrelevance. The old fool actually believes that line. That's his quote, sadly enough.

If he's the Raiders, he needs to swap that walker for a set of pads and learn to fucking tackle.

He's a sad old man who stole a football team from a partner who trusted him. There's a real role model. :rolleyes:

Crow: That might be the dumbest thing I've ever read. Fans leading a team into irrelevance. First it was Al's drafting. Then it was Al's inability to replace Gruden. Now its fans supporting the team. I've push you off a ledge. :pound:

Fan is short for fanatic. You're not a fan. The math is simple.

p.s., don't try to act smart by acting as if you know more about Raider history than others. You'll only embarrass yourself. ;)

[Sleet]

Crow:

Good lord this shit gets old.

Every other post?

Seriously?

We FUCKING GET IT.

You hate Al Davis, you refused to watch games in recent years, you hated the draft picks the last two seasons, we're doomed, the sky is falling and we suck.

Move on. Get a new gig.

I mean, even I don't pimp the Raiders anymore. I was an optimist, now I'm a realist ( I 'thank' you for hitting me with a 2x4 over and over in dozens of different forums). Doesnt mean I'm going to sit there and trash the team every chance I get. Its training camp...Lets just take it slow and see what we have before we start this shit all over again.

I don't even like coming here anymore.

Sad to hear brother. You broght me here; hope to chat with you more down the road. By the way, where's Speed hangin these days?

[Raider Bill]

just get tired of people getting upset because we didn't trade down and get "value." He's never traded down

How about just picking the best player available in that spot?

Forget Osi, Ed Reed, et al.. the one that really chapped my ass was Andrew Walter. Justin Tuck was easily the best player on the board.

What fucking good is it to select a backup QB for a coach who may or may not be here the following year?

[Sleet]

How about just picking the best player available in that spot?

Forget Osi, Ed Reed, et al.. the one that really chapped my ass was Andrew Walter. Justin Tuck was easily the best player on the board.

What fucking good is it to select a backup QB for a coach who may or may not be here the following year?

Cry, pout, bitch, moan, bla, bla, bla. I, too, wish Al would have gotten it perfect. Even near perfect. But he didn't. It looks like he drafted well (fingers crossed) in '07 and '08, which I hope turns this team around, so we might have a HC longer than 1 year. I'm skeptical about the '09 draft, though, as our others.

Did I miss something? Oh yea, bitch, moan, pout, cry. That about sums you up.

[Raider Bill]

I'm not bitching. Just pointing out a flawed decision making process.

Going into that year Turner was on thin ice, as Cable is this year IMO. So why saddle a future regime with a QB of the future who can only succeed in an offense like Turners, when fucking Turner may or may not be here.

Turner made Tui expendable. The current system makes Walter expendable. Roster spots are finite, you need to make the best use of them.

[Birdwell]

How about just picking the best player available in that spot?

Forget Osi, Ed Reed, et al.. the one that really chapped my ass was Andrew Walter. Justin Tuck was easily the best player on the board.

What fucking good is it to select a backup QB for a coach who may or may not be here the following year?

Hindsight is so 20-20, at least for most of us. I guess for you, bror, it's 20-10. I guess you were just telling everyone how that sixth round draft pick outta Michigan was just gonna light up the league once he got onto the field with the Patsies, huh?

A real genius could go, round by round, and name all the players who will be better pros over the course of their careers who were picked after guys we took. Right now, for the 2009 draft. Maybe get one of three wrong. But surely, after one year, you could do that for the 2008 draft.

Ain't no way for us mere humans to know the future.

I'm not bitching. Just pointing out a flawed decision making process.

Going into that year Turner was on thin ice, as Cable is this year IMO. So why saddle a future regime with a QB of the future who can only succeed in an offense like Turners, when fucking Turner may or may not be here.

Turner made Tui expendable. The current system makes Walter expendable. Roster spots are finite, you need to make the best use of them.

He was drafted as the backup and hopefully to take over from Kerry Collins who, by the way, put up pretty good numbers in Tuirners system considering the state of the D and no running game. And you're confusing your own fantasy of future knowledge with Al Davis. Davis does not go into any season expecting to lose the majority of the games, or even six. While the realistic possibility exists that such will come to pass even on the best of teams with key injuries, there is no reason to "expect" a losing season.

[CrossBones]

Not sure why we're continually rehashing the past drafts. They're done and gone.

We're a couple of weeks away from the first pre-season game of 2009. We should be happy football is here. But oh no a few of us want to bring down the whole group by continually harping on the same issues over and over and over again.

Knock this shit off. Let's talk about football. Al Davis is who he is. We know that. Don't need to be reminded about it in every post.

I hope this is worded in a fashion that it's understood. We're not going through this the entire football season. If the shoe fits wear it.

[Sleet]

I'm not bitching. Just pointing out a flawed decision making process.

Going into that year Turner was on thin ice, as Cable is this year IMO. So why saddle a future regime with a QB of the future who can only succeed in an offense like Turners, when fucking Turner may or may not be here.

Turner made Tui expendable. The current system makes Walter expendable. Roster spots are finite, you need to make the best use of them.

You're not? :nono:

I guess you won't have much to say around here in the future then. :pound:

p.s., sorry Bones, didn't read your post first.

[Rupert]

I've said it before, I'll probably say it a thousand more time, but Al Davis is the Raiders, every bit as much as the uniforms, the history and the players. The day he goes will be sad day indeed.

Good times or Bad, he is largely what makes the Raiders unique. I hope this franchise has one more legit run before his days are up. I truly do.

Guys, it's simple. The Raiders ARE Al.

Yeah, he's got his flaws.

But I dare one of these Al-icide dreamers to guarantee me we'll be better off when he passes on or passes control to someone else.

We could as easily become a Cleveland or Cincy or Detroit as a New England or Pissburgh. Then there are the Washington's and Atlanta's and all the other odd franchises that struggle through various levels of futility with the occassional good showing.

The same "genius" that gave us the Raiders we root for has given us the Raiders we've groaned about.

Just like some of the coaching changes, I fear what a change in the front office could mean. None of you Al-haters could possibly live in L.A. and have a constant reminder of what a bad organization is like. The L.A. Clippers are a franchise run strictly as a money-maker. 39 seasons, 7 playoff appearances, won 2 series, 0 championship appearances.

[Rupert]

I'm not bitching. Just pointing out a flawed decision making process.

Going into that year Turner was on thin ice, as Cable is this year IMO. So why saddle a future regime with a QB of the future who can only succeed in an offense like Turners, when fucking Turner may or may not be here.

Turner made Tui expendable. The current system makes Walter expendable. Roster spots are finite, you need to make the best use of them.

See here's the funny thing, EVERYONE.

I agree with this point.

It's the main flaw I see in Al. His desire to be flexible. It's what the haters really fail to see about Al. They hang on the nuts of what they see as bad decisions and slurp down all the infected semen.

Wrong! Al is flexible.

Wrong! Al does let his coaches change the schemes.

Wrong! Al isn't imposing his will on his coaches and they are NOT just hand puppets.

But Al is wrong to not dictate the schemes the organization will run while he's in charge. If Al truly did dictate to his coaches or just hire hand puppets, guess what, there would be absolutely no reason to ever waste a draft pick by selecting a guy that doesn't fit the scheme.

But haters don't see how their own disagreements with Al invalidate their arguments about what they think Al is.

I find this laughable. These guys HAVE to be able to put it together since they have some intelligence, but they're so full of the bile they've been building up that they just can't see it. They're too busy trying to dig Al a grave that they don't see they're digging in a toxic dump that's killing them.

[RaiderIVlife]

What can I say.

You suck the internet life right out of me.

Peace out.

007 - What? I finally wade back into this polluted ocean and now you're leaving? Get back in dude, it's training camp.

Crow - I actually think a lot of what you say is toungue-n-cheek, but sheesh, I can see why people are getting sick of the constant negative posts. You're certainly not alone in your sentiments, and the team has stunk it up for year, but at this point in my life, with work stress being what it is, I just don't have time for the glass if half full approach to this team.

I love this team. I'll never even like another. Even if they never win again in my lifetime. I'd rather invest energy in talking how they MIGHT succeed versus stating the rather obvious that they aren't succeeding.

I think your very knowledgeble, I'd just suggest trying to direct some of that energy into a different line of thinking. At least until actual games are played.

(shrug)

[DonkeyKilla]

Kiffin was too young and dumb to realize what he was getting into. Veteran coaches won't touch this job because they know they are neutered when they walk in the door. I pray Cable knows what he is doing in his dealings with Al and I hope he is up to the task of puppet master because that is the only way he will succeed. And those are the facts.

Kiffin knew exactly what he was doing-- USING the raiders to get a HC job in the college ranks.

[Rupert]

Kiffin knew exactly what he was doing-- USING the raiders to get a HC job in the college ranks.

That's exactly what he was here for. He had no real interest in the Raiders in any way other than how it would look on his resume.

"Hired as HC for Raiders." - Al thought enough of his abilities to hire him. - Check

"Fired cuz Al wouldn't let him do it his way." - Awww the poor guy. No-one can get along with Al.

[Raider Bill]

See here's the funny thing, EVERYONE.

I agree with this point.

It's the main flaw I see in Al. His desire to be flexible. It's what the haters really fail to see about Al. They hang on the nuts of what they see as bad decisions and slurp down all the infected semen.

Wrong! Al is flexible.

Wrong! Al does let his coaches change the schemes.

Wrong! Al isn't imposing his will on his coaches and they are NOT just hand puppets.

But Al is wrong to not dictate the schemes the organization will run while he's in charge. If Al truly did dictate to his coaches or just hire hand puppets, guess what, there would be absolutely no reason to ever waste a draft pick by selecting a guy that doesn't fit the scheme.

But haters don't see how their own disagreements with Al invalidate their arguments about what they think Al is.

I find this laughable. These guys HAVE to be able to put it together since they have some intelligence, but they're so full of the bile they've been building up that they just can't see it. They're too busy trying to dig Al a grave that they don't see they're digging in a toxic dump that's killing them.

Invalidate what? Like the article says there's a strong correlation between someone who knows what the hell they're doing in the front office and winning, around here. First Ron Wolf then Gruden/Lombardi.

None of us knows for sure what the dynamic is inside the building so your guess is as good as mine.

[Sleet]

Bill: I'll give you Ron Wolf no doubt. But Gruden and Lombardi? Show me a good draft that those two were credited for? Al built Gruden's teams through FA b/c they didn't draft well in the Gruden years, which resulted in a very old team that needed drastic rebuilding, which Al got the draft picks to accomplish (by trading Gruden), but then flopped on those picks, too, when Lombardi was here. It looks like (stress looks like) Al's best two drafts in the 2000's is the '07 and '08 drafts, when Kiffin was hear (ironically).

[Raider Bill]

Bill: I'll give you Ron Wolf no doubt. But Gruden and Lombardi? Show me a good draft that those two were credited for? Al built Gruden's teams through FA b/c they didn't draft well in the Gruden years, which resulted in a very old team that needed drastic rebuilding, which Al got the draft picks to accomplish (by trading Gruden), but then flopped on those picks, too, when Lombardi was here. It looks like (stress looks like) Al's best two drafts in the 2000's is the '07 and '08 drafts, when Kiffin was hear (ironically).

It was Gruden's system and the players targeted were brought in to fit it. Lombardi made the contracts work, Gannon was the lynch pin, about as far away from a "looks good getting off the bus" player as you can get. 2 old fart WR's that were slow. Garner was a guy with a Gruden connection via Philadelphia as was William Thomas. Neither was an outstanding size/speed specemin but they could play.

I had it on pretty good authority that Gruden wanted to bring in Jim Johnson (RIP) to run the defense but was overruled by Al.

Had we kept Callahan and gutted the team I feel like we would be where we are now without suffering through Shell and Turner. We've come full circle to a run first offense like when Gruden first got here

Al hated that system and wanted all the deep balls put in in 2003 getting Gannon killed in the process.

[Raider Bill]

Bones, I'm trying to limit my remarks to this thread hope you dont mind. LMK if I'm skating on thin ice here.

[Sleet]

It was Gruden's system and the players targeted were brought in to fit it. Lombardi made the contracts work, Gannon was the lynch pin, about as far away from a "looks good getting off the bus" player as you can get. 2 old fart WR's that were slow. Garner was a guy with a Gruden connection via Philadelphia as was William Thomas. Neither was an outstanding size/speed specemin but they could play.

I had it on pretty good authority that Gruden wanted to bring in Jim Johnson (RIP) to run the defense but was overruled by Al.

Had we kept Callahan and gutted the team I feel like we would be where we are now without suffering through Shell and Turner. We've come full circle to a run first offense like when Gruden first got here

Al hated that system and wanted all the deep balls put in in 2003 getting Gannon killed in the process.

Bill, you didn't answer the question, you just went back to your old, tired mantra, which I will address in a moment. I guess you agree or concede that Gruden isn't a good college talent evaluator, as the drafts in Oakland when he was HC were not very good, and they were no better in Tampa when he was there and had personnel authority with Allen.

As to Lombadi, all you can muster is, "he made contracts work." That's too funny. Another concession that he didn't know what the fuck he was doing either. Al drafted better in '07 and '08 without Gruden and Lombardi than he did when either of those two guys were in the war room working for him.

As to Gannon, you have already been proven wrong about that signing. You are just too bias to admit it and give Al credit for that signing, and for hiring Gruden in the first place. Tell me, if Al hated the west coast offense as much as you think, why did he hire ShannaRat, Gruden, Callahan and Kiffin, and why is Hackett our QB coach?

I, too, would have liked to see Al hire Jim Johnson instead of Willie Shaw. That's about the only smart thing you've said. But so what?

You are so full of shit that you think Al should have retained Callahan, who failed miserably in Nebraska and threw his players under the bus in Oakland. What's even funnier is that, a few posts ago, you credited Callahan (not Al) for opening up Gruden's offense, which led the Raiders to the SuperBowl. Now you switch gears and in the same post, you say (a) Al hated the offense that led the Raiders to the 1st SuperBowl in years, but at the same time (b) you blame Al because that pass-first offense, you claim, resulted in Gannon's injury.

Are you for real? Tell me you're pulling my leg.

Blaming Al for Gannon's injury has got to be the dumbest thing I've ever read. What a beauty. Did you even see the play? It was in the red-zone (not a deep ball pattern). Gannon stuck his neck into Brooks' crunching tackle. Gannon was a moron. It had nothing to do with Al.

Of course, Al is to blame for Norv and Art II. But those two signings do not mean Al hates the west-coast offense. It means that (a) Al opted to go in a new direction when he had Collins as QB (Collins had only had success in run-first offenses), and (b) Norv, then Art II, were the best coaches he could then find. Almost everything about those years was bad. No argument here. I just don't dwell on it, or hate for it, nor am I blinded because of it, or led by it to repeatedly say stupid things.

What's sad, is that you don't even know how stupid you sound. You just keep ranting. I guess I'm to blame for trying to have a dialogue with you a moment ago. I guess I'll just go back to enjoying bafooning you when you go off on one of your I-hate-all-things-Al-Davis-rants-except-of-course-his-football-team-which-I-love.

[Raider Bill]

Bill, you didn't answer the question, you just went back to your old, tired mantra, which I will address in a moment. I guess you agree or concede that Gruden isn't a good college talent evaluator, as the drafts in Oakland when he was HC were not very good, and they were no better in Tampa when he was there and had personnel authority with Allen.

Never said he was. He came in with a system and went out and got the guys he needed to make it work.



As to Lombadi, all you can muster is, "he made contracts work." That's too funny. Another concession that he didn't know what the fuck he was doing either. Al drafted better in '07 and '08 without Gruden and Lombardi than he did when either of those two guys were in the war room working for him.

Draft/free agency, whatever the point is they won some fucking games because they had a plan and a clue, unlike the dude in the bad jogging suit.


As to Gannon, you have already been proven wrong about that signing. You are just too bias to admit it and give Al credit for that signing, and for hiring Gruden in the first place. Tell me, if Al hated the west coast offense as much as you think, why did he hire ShannaRat, Gruden, Callahan and Kiffin, and why is Hackett our QB coach?

Shanahan checked the WCO off his coaching application after he left here.

Callahan and Hackett are more continuity deals.


What I am saying is that rather than switching schemes 4 times subsequent to 2003, you could have just stayed with a similar scheme and have been that much further ahead. For example you wouldn't waive Tui to make room for Walter, then change coaches re sign Tui and waive Walter. Gallery wouldn';t have took so long to develop because the schemes didnt change annually, stuff like that.




Jeff George was Al's boy.

This connection bears scrutiny, because Gruden put his reputation on the line with Gannon. The signing sent a distinct message: Owner Al Davis is giving Gruden a chance to run his offense, with his quarterback. For once, a powerful throwing arm is not almighty in Raiders land.

No, this season comes down to Gannon bringing Gruden's playbook to life. This is about wise decisions, on-the-spot creativity, making something out of nothing.

This is about that first night in Alameda, when Gruden decided he wanted Gannon to run his team.

``Jon's a sharp guy,'' Gannon said. ``He'll get us in the right situation at the right time. But we (the players) still drive the car. We've got to stay on the road.''



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article/article?f=/c/a/1999/09/11/SP5927.DTL#ixzz0MzRfrGU3


I, too, would have liked to see Al hire Jim Johnson instead of Willie Shaw. That's about the only smart thing you've said. But so what?

It illustrates Gruden knew what the hell he was doing even with the D and Davis sucks monster elephant cocks.


You are so full of shit that you think Al should have retained Callahan, who failed miserably in Nebraska and threw his players under the bus in Oakland. What's even funnier is that, a few posts ago, you credited Callahan (not Al) for opening up Gruden's offense, which led the Raiders to the SuperBowl. Now you switch gears and in the same post, you say (a) Al hated the offense that led the Raiders to the 1st SuperBowl in years, but at the same time (b) you blame Al because that pass-first offense, you claim, resulted in Gannon's injury.



You have a fucking reading comprehension problem?

Firstly in 2002 Callahan opened up the offense starting with the Pittsburg game, it was something planned out in camp, they lifted the Patriots and Bengals gameplan for making the Steelers look bad.

In 2003 Al Davis threw out the baby with the bathwater and demanded they add all the deep throws to the offense which Gannon was ill equiped for and got him roughed up


Of course, Al is to blame for Norv and Art II. But those two signings do not mean Al hates the west-coast offense. It means that (a) Al opted to go in a new direction when he had Collins as QB (Collins had only had success in run-first offenses), and (b) Norv, then Art II, were the best coaches he could then find. Almost everything about those years was bad. No argument here. I just don't dwell on it, or hate for it, nor am I blinded because of it, or led by it to repeatedly say stupid things.




What's sad, is that you don't even know how stupid you sound. You just keep ranting. I guess I'm to blame for trying to have a dialogue with you a moment ago. I guess I'll just go back to enjoying bafooning you when you go off on one of your I-hate-all-things-Al-Davis-rants-except-of-course-his-football-team-which-I-love.[/QUOTE]


Ha how stupid I sound... LOL I called damn near everything, except I thought Burgess wouldn't amount to shit here.

I called that Moss trade would end up a disaster, and Ware or Merriman would have been a better use of the pick the day it happened.

I called Turner and Shell would both win single digit games

I called Justin Tuck = Stud and Walter was a wasted pick that draft day my exact words were "Walter will be some future regime's Tuiasopsopo (guy that doesn't fit)"

I said Morrison struggled vs the run long before it was fashionable.

Fuckin A, I was getting laughed at by various members of this forum for wanting to keep Curry and waive Kenny fucking Shedd, because Curry was money as a kicking team gunner.

[Rupert]

As to Gannon, you have already been proven wrong about that signing. You are just too bias to admit it and give Al credit for that signing, and for hiring Gruden in the first place. Tell me, if Al hated the west coast offense as much as you think, why did he hire ShannaRat, Gruden, Callahan and Kiffin, and why is Hackett our QB coach?

Don't forget Mike White. Another WCO guy.

[Sleet]

Never said he was. He came in with a system and went out and got the guys he needed to make it work.

Al got those guys for Gruden, not the other way around. Funny how you'll give Lombardi credit for working out "good contracts," but you won't give Al credit for signing good FA before they were signed by another owner.

Draft/free agency, whatever the point is they won some fucking games because they had a plan and a clue, unlike the dude in the bad jogging suit.

Your old rant, again. You don't win in the NFL when you don't have a good personnel guy and good HC. It takes both. Al's only half the equation in good years. The other half is a good HC. Gruden is a good HC but not a good personnel guy. He needed Al (then Dungi) to put together his teams.

Shanahan checked the WCO off his coaching application after he left here.

Callahan and Hackett are more continuity deals.

Wrong. Al hires the best offensive HC he can find, and lets the HC run his offense, while Al focuses on the defense. That's been Al's MO for sometime. But he has little patients; he undimines his coaches vis-a-vis the players; and he struggles finding coaches to coach for him. It has far less to do with scheme. That's not Al's problem on offense (defense, maybe).

What I am saying is that rather than switching schemes 4 times subsequent to 2003, you could have just stayed with a similar scheme and have been that much further ahead. For example you wouldn't waive Tui to make room for Walter, then change coaches re sign Tui and waive Walter. Gallery wouldn';t have took so long to develop because the schemes didnt change annually, stuff like that.

Tui's your example? Tui was a bad pick in the Gruden era regardless of the scheme. The guy sucked, period.

You should have pointed to Al's signing of Collins to back-up Gannon. That required a scheme change. Collins was not a WCO guy. However, Collins did match what Norv wanted to do. And Al spent 2 high draft choices (Gallery and Grove) to give Norv the OL to do it. Gallery took so long to develop not becasue Al changed schemes, but because the entire world projected Gallery as a LT. It was Al's willingness to change schemes that enabled Gallery to have a career. Cable figured out that Gallery could play gaurd in a zone blocking scheme that Al permitted Kiffin to install. You're so full of it.

Jeff George was Al's boy.

Sure he was, and Jeff actually had some of his best years playing for Al. But what's your point? Al signed Gannon and let Gruden dump George. But instead of applauding Al, you blame him?

It illustrates Gruden knew what the hell he was doing even with the D and Davis sucks monster elephant cocks.

Al put together a D that was good enough to get to the SuperBowl, but not good enough to win it. Yea, that sucks. But not for the reason you're stating. You're such an ingrate.

You have a fucking reading comprehension problem?

Firstly in 2002 Callahan opened up the offense starting with the Pittsburg game, it was something planned out in camp, they lifted the Patriots and Bengals gameplan for making the Steelers look bad.

Al hired Tressman as Callahan's OC, and Tressman and Callahan pitched it to Al, who let them do it, just as he lets all his OC do it.

In 2003 Al Davis threw out the baby with the bathwater and demanded they add all the deep throws to the offense which Gannon was ill equiped for and got him roughed up.

You said Gannon got injured because Al changed the offense, now you're arguing something else. However, Al didn't change the offense. He wanted Gannon to look deep more often, that's all, but that's not changing the offense. Gannon's only TD pass in the SB was a bomb to Porter. Throwing deeper patterns is not what got Gannon injured, which you now apparently concede. So, yes, you still sound stupid.

Finally, as to your so-called correct predictions, what's your point? That you should be permitted to sound like a horses ass becuase you're smart? Why don't you consistently sound smart and stop all the crap in your posts?

[Rupert]

Finally, as to your so-called correct predictions, what's your point? That you should be permitted to sound like a horses ass becuase you're smart? Why don't you consistently sound smart and stop all the crap in your posts?
Nutshell.

[Random Dude]

This is the worst thread I have read since joining. I could be blogging on the CCT if I wanted to continually read threads debating the stature of AD. There is nothing original in here. Next time I'll watch reruns of Seinfeld instead. At least there is a chance for a laugh...

Bones,
Kick this thread to the curb.