6:17

[NIPS]

Man, I just cant get enough of this guy. I aint buying this 3-4 bullshit. He's the same size as Jason Taylor minus a couple inches, 10 lbs lighter than Freeney.

This guy has shit you just cant teach, he's so frekin fast it amazing. I encourage everybody to watch this video at 6:17

Pressure, pressure, pressure.

Read an article how he is a big community guy, donated his time to 3-4 different charites helping kids in Tallahasee. He doesnt drink or blow hippy lettuce. He's just a quality kid that this team desperatley needs. He'd be great for the community in Oakland and as a player for the Raiders.

This guys gonna be the next great DE in the NFL. Thats right - I said it...

Dig

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXJJ14HL5EE&feature=related

[poptart]

I'll be a very happy camper if we draft E. Brown.

[DarthRaidor]

Man, I just cant get enough of this guy. I aint buying this 3-4 bullshit. He's the same size as Jason Taylor minus a couple inches, 10 lbs lighter than Freeney.

This guy has shit you just cant teach, he's so frekin fast it amazing. I encourage everybody to watch this video at 6:17

Pressure, pressure, pressure.

Read an article how he is a big community guy, donated his time to 3-4 different charites helping kids in Tallahasee. He doesnt drink or blow hippy lettuce. He's just a quality kid that this team desperatley needs. He'd be great for the community in Oakland and as a player for the Raiders.

This guys gonna be the next great DE in the NFL. Thats right - I said it...

Dig

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXJJ14HL5EE&feature=related


Yeah Nips. I was a big Raji guy before, but now Brown and/ or Johnson seem better picks to me.

[PINGU]

I think its a no brainer we get the best DE, in a great DE class, for a real deficient DE team.

Jay Richardson, Trevor Scott, and Greyson FUCKING Gunheim IS ABSOLUTELY AWEFUL.

Even if Brown is gone, Maybin/Orakpo isnt a bad consolation.


I have us taking Brown in my mock I posted a while back:

1) Detroit: Jason Smith (OT) Baylor
2) St. Louis: Eugene Monroe (OT) Virginia
3) Kansas City: Aaron Curry (LB) Wake Forest
4) Seattle: Mark Sanchez (QB) USC
5) Cleveland Browns: Michael Crabtree (WR) Tejas Tech
6) Cincinnati Bengals: BJ Raji (DT) Boston College
7) Oakland Raiders: Evertte Brown (DE) FSU (R2- Darius Haywood Bey R3 - Zack Follet R4- Chris Clemons)
8) Jacksonville Jaguars: Andre Smith (OT) Alabama
9) Green Bay Packers: Brian Orakpo (DE) Texas
10) San Francisco: Aaron Maybin (DE) Penn State

[Madturk]

I'm totally on board with Everette Brown. While he's known for his ability to get after the QB, he also is fairly solid vs the run for a guy his size. I say screw trying to convert him to a 3-4 backer. Let him put on 10-15 lbs and let him play with his hand on the ground. We already have backers that can drop into pass coverage.

Definitely reminds me a bit of Lawrence Taylor with his relentless pursuit of the QB.

[Armyr8rfan]

Wow. Sick, sick first step. The spin, the rip, the PERFECT angles, the feel for the game, awareness.......Crabtree Smith, Monroe will be gone.Brown looked like a monster, against some ranked teams, with LT's whose strength is pass blocking. Man among boys. All the WR, LT talk smokescreen? IMO, on paper DE, and S are our two weakest positions. Then WR, DT. Burgess will be gone next year. Taylor Mays will be a Raider next year. We can get our receiver DHB, by trading up.

[gst8]

My money is on one of these undersized pass-rushers if all three OT's are gone.

Al's had recent sucess with Burgess and could be looking for his replacement.

More than that, I can't see him taking a WR or DT that high.

[Rupert]

Brown looks solid. Has the frame to add bulk. Seems to understand leverage and how to manipulate it. Good phonebooth quickness. I know that's a highlight reel, but he seemed very capable of keeping the tackle's hands off him. Didn't get locked up and nullified. Has the closing speed to seal the deal.

Kinda reminds me of old number 93 - Greg Townsend.

[NIPS]

Brown looks solid. Has the frame to add bulk. Seems to understand leverage and how to manipulate it. Good phonebooth quickness. I know that's a highlight reel, but he seemed very capable of keeping the tackle's hands off him. Didn't get locked up and nullified. Has the closing speed to seal the deal.

Kinda reminds me of old number 93 - Greg Townsend.


I'm very impressed in the way he gets low after the snap and gets under the OT

Once he gets under the OT, its over.. I dont care what LT there is.. You aint beating that

[wyoraiders]

Hate to be a pessimist, but how much impact is Everett going to have in the 4th quarter when the other team is running the ball down our throats cause we failed to address our huge hole in the middle? Let's face it, Sands and Warren are not the space-eaters we need to compliment Kelly...the combination of Burgess and Scott should be able to give us a decent pass rush.

Give us Raji, D improves instantly...watch this video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UQ2YGE9SLM&feature=related

[Jack's sore libido]

You can get a space eater to occupy double teams later in the draft.

Premier pass rushers are not so easy to find.

Besides, how many DTs are good in their first few years?

[Jack's sore libido]

You know what's impressive to me about Brown -- his recognition. The guy doesn't fall for many fakes. And in today's game, with the Wildcat gaining prominence, that's pretty important.

[007]

Ok fine!

I'll add him into my top 3, and make it a top 4 list.

That was a pretty cool vid.

Crab-Raji-Smith-Brown.

I can live with those guys.

[Raidervinny]

Man, I am still leery of taking a DE that high in the first round. In the last 4 drafts there haven't been many DE's that have been successful.

2005: Erasmus James (Marcus Spears is a 315 lb DE in a 3-4 scheme and both Shawn Merriman and DeMarcus Ware play LB in a 3-4 scheme)

2006: Mario Williams, Tamba Hali, Mathias Kiwanuka (best of the last 4 drafts)

2007: Gaines Adams, Jamaal Anderson, Jarvis Moss (Horrible...all three have yet to have any impact)

2008: Chris Long, Vernon Gholston, Derrick Harvey, Lawrence Jackson (it's waaaayyy too early to judge any of these players but none of them had much, if any, impact with their teams)

Most of the DE's in this draft are purely one-dimmensional...they can rush the passer...but they are liabilities against the run. I just don't think we have the luxury of being able to spend our first round pick on a player that will only be on the field for about 30 - 40% of the Defensive snaps.

[Rupert]

Man, I am still leery of taking a DE that high in the first round. In the last 4 drafts there haven't been many DE's that have been successful.

Most of the DE's in this draft are purely one-dimmensional...they can rush the passer...but they are liabilities against the run. I just don't think we have the luxury of being able to spend our first round pick on a player that will only be on the field for about 30 - 40% of the Defensive snaps.

Totally get where you're coming from, but... (yeah, you knew that was coming)

Statistics can show you just about anything from draft history. You can't let it dictate what you do. You just can't.

Most DE's that are recognized DE's in the draft are one-dimensional pass rushers because that's how you get noticed.

Shuffle through Youtube and show me the clips of any defender stacking up his blocker and making a routine tackle against the run.

Better yet, show me the base DE that stands up his blocker, controls his gap and strings out the play so the CB or S can make the tackle. Where are those "highlight" clips? No-one but an X's and O's guy would be interested in seeing those clips.

The fact is, those DEs aren't necessarily one-dimensional guys, pass rushing is just the easiest thing to report about them.

What I saw with Brown was his ability to break blocks and not get engulfed by them. Sure dude is only 250, but he's 6-4 and has plenty of room to add strength and bulk. He could easily get to 270 and be a two-way force at DE.

Is it going to happen? Don't know. But I see plenty of reason to think it can.

[Raidervinny]

Totally get where you're coming from, but... (yeah, you knew that was coming)

Statistics can show you just about anything from draft history. You can't let it dictate what you do. You just can't.

Most DE's that are recognized DE's in the draft are one-dimensional pass rushers because that's how you get noticed.

Shuffle through Youtube and show me the clips of any defender stacking up his blocker and making a routine tackle against the run.

Better yet, show me the base DE that stands up his blocker, controls his gap and strings out the play so the CB or S can make the tackle. Where are those "highlight" clips? No-one but an X's and O's guy would be interested in seeing those clips.

The fact is, those DEs aren't necessarily one-dimensional guys, pass rushing is just the easiest thing to report about them.

What I saw with Brown was his ability to break blocks and not get engulfed by them. Sure dude is only 250, but he's 6-4 and has plenty of room to add strength and bulk. He could easily get to 270 and be a two-way force at DE.

Is it going to happen? Don't know. But I see plenty of reason to think it can.

I feel ya and understand where you are coming from as well. I just don't think we can afford to have another $50 million dollar player that plays less than 50% of the defensive snaps. This would be less of an issue if we were picking in the 20's or lower but with a pick that high and the contract that goes with it, the Raiders need a player that we be on the field for the vast majority of the offensive or defensive plays and make and impact. I just can't see any of the DE's in this draft being that player. But hey, that's just me and I ain't no expert. Who knows, maybe one of those guys turns into the second coming of Howie Long.

[Byron2112]

Hate to be a pessimist, but how much impact is Everett going to have in the 4th quarter when the other team is running the ball down our throats cause we failed to address our huge hole in the middle? Let's face it, Sands and Warren are not the space-eaters we need to compliment Kelly...the combination of Burgess and Scott should be able to give us a decent pass rush.

Give us Raji, D improves instantly...watch this video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UQ2YGE9SLM&feature=related


I'm afraid I agree with this... not that I don't believe DE is right there in our top 3-4 needs(and none are far apart in urgency), but my God, teams have been finding our cornhole for literally years now. We've had all these perverted and skewed stats that tell us how great our pass D is because teams absolutely don't have to pass... they just sit on the ball and pound us for five yards a carry at their leisure.

WR is right that Aso and Brown aren't gonna mean dick to this team when teams are running the ball down our throat for the final 20 minutes milking that 10 point lead.

We've had one a the worst run defenses in the league for years and we're simply not going to advance as a team until we can change that... for my money, after helping Russ succeed, this by far the most dire need for this team and has been for what seems like for ever.


BTW, why does Brown seem to be falling on draft boards?

[Jack's sore libido]

both Shawn Merriman and DeMarcus Ware play LB in a 3-4 scheme)

OK, but ...

2008: Chris Long, Vernon Gholston, Derrick Harvey, Lawrence Jackson (it's waaaayyy too early to judge any of these players but none of them had much, if any, impact with their teams)

[Jack's sore libido]

BTW, why does Brown seem to be falling on draft boards?

People are stupid.

[Raidervinny]

OK, but ...

Hey JSL...yeah, I know Gholston plays in a 3-4 as well...I was just pointing out that the success of Merriman and Ware came in a diferent scheme than we run.

Later man.

[Byron2112]

Totally get where you're coming from, but... (yeah, you knew that was coming)

Statistics can show you just about anything from draft history. You can't let it dictate what you do. You just can't.

Most DE's that are recognized DE's in the draft are one-dimensional pass rushers because that's how you get noticed.

Shuffle through Youtube and show me the clips of any defender stacking up his blocker and making a routine tackle against the run.

Better yet, show me the base DE that stands up his blocker, controls his gap and strings out the play so the CB or S can make the tackle. Where are those "highlight" clips? No-one but an X's and O's guy would be interested in seeing those clips.

The fact is, those DEs aren't necessarily one-dimensional guys, pass rushing is just the easiest thing to report about them.

What I saw with Brown was his ability to break blocks and not get engulfed by them. Sure dude is only 250, but he's 6-4 and has plenty of room to add strength and bulk. He could easily get to 270 and be a two-way force at DE.

Is it going to happen? Don't know. But I see plenty of reason to think it can.

Nice post... actually Brown is 6'1"... just FYI

[NIPS]

I feel ya and understand where you are coming from as well. I just don't think we can afford to have another $50 million dollar player that plays less than 50% of the defensive snaps. This would be less of an issue if we were picking in the 20's or lower but with a pick that high and the contract that goes with it, the Raiders need a player that we be on the field for the vast majority of the offensive or defensive plays and make and impact. I just can't see any of the DE's in this draft being that player. But hey, that's just me and I ain't no expert. Who knows, maybe one of those guys turns into the second coming of Howie Long.

Why do you feel he'll only play 50% of the snaps?

Brown weighs 256 - Jason Taylor played at 244

[NIPS]

Nice post... actually Brown is 6'1"... just FYI

Lets not inch the guy...he's actually 6'2

[Byron2112]

Six feet one and a half inches to be precise.



...stickler :D

[raiderdog]

Hate to be a pessimist, but how much impact is Everett going to have in the 4th quarter when the other team is running the ball down our throats cause we failed to address our huge hole in the middle? Let's face it, Sands and Warren are not the space-eaters we need to compliment Kelly...the combination of Burgess and Scott should be able to give us a decent pass rush.

Give us Raji, D improves instantly...watch this video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UQ2YGE9SLM&feature=related

But if we are pressuring the QB and forcing 3 and outs...how does the other team get up by 10 points. Why aren't we ahead at that point and running the ball down there throats. Just a thought.

[NIPS]

Six feet one and a half inches to be precise.



...stickler :D

Thats barefoot slick... cleets make him 6'2 :pound:

[Raidervinny]

Why do you feel he'll only play 50% of the snaps?

Brown weighs 256 - Jason Taylor played at 244

I think he'll be used in obvious passing downs but is such a liability against the run that we won't be able to keep him out there much more than that. If we had stronger Tackle play then I don't think it would be as big an issue. See next comment...

Jason Taylor had better d-linemen lining up with him that allowed him to focus on his strength...rushing the passer.

[CrossBones]

Nice post... actually Brown is 6'1"... just FYINo it was a dumb post considering that Al Davis isn't taking a tweener at DE @7 (from FSU no less). Don't listen to Rupert. duh. :p

[Byron2112]

No it was a dumb post considering that Al Davis isn't taking a tweener at DE @7 (from FSU no less). Don't listen to Rupert. duh. :p

He has some points on draft stats and DE play for sure... but as you point out, Al's not a bunt kinda guy at the top of the draft, he's swinging for the fences.

[Rupert]

I feel ya and understand where you are coming from as well. I just don't think we can afford to have another $50 million dollar player that plays less than 50% of the defensive snaps. This would be less of an issue if we were picking in the 20's or lower but with a pick that high and the contract that goes with it, the Raiders need a player that we be on the field for the vast majority of the offensive or defensive plays and make and impact. I just can't see any of the DE's in this draft being that player. But hey, that's just me and I ain't no expert. Who knows, maybe one of those guys turns into the second coming of Howie Long.

Definitely agree. Due diligence and all that, you can still pay a guy and fuck up. Bones will tell ya. The draft is the mother of all crapshoots.

The thing is, the more you look at it, the more you break it down, the more you see that no-one is perfect. Hell, if you're an NFL exec, do a breakdown of your own roster and see what flaws you've got there.

You can totally paralyze yourself through analysis. At some point you've done the best you can, made the best decisions you're capable of, so write the shit down and head into the draft ready to pull the trigger.

[Rupert]

Nice post... actually Brown is 6'1"... just FYI

Yep, reading the pre-combine numbers. Seeing the 6-1-5/8 makes me a little more concerned about how much functional weight he can add without affecting his quickness. It might leave him in the pass rusher category.

(I obviously have NOT done a lot of draft scouting this season, too effing busy).

[CrossBones]

You can totally paralyze yourself through analysis.Agree 100%. That's the point everybody is at right now. The draft can't come to soon now. Teams are wringing their hands andtalking themselves out of good players...too much information. Too many numbers. Too much analysis.

[Birdwell]

Sorry to rain on the parade here, but this is what I saw:

Brown is awesome when he's unblocked.

Brown is very, very good when the OT stands straight up.

Brown is a solid pass rusher so long as he doesn't get punched.

Some very sorry LT play on this reel. Some really bad line calls that let the fastest player on the D-line a clear path to the ball. Some truly awful play at G -- use you damn hands!

Against NFL-caliber linemen (and Cs making real line calls), I don't see anything from this reel that impresses me, other than a very quick spin move -- but punch him as soon as he starts to turn and watch what happens.

Compare Brown's highlight reel to the one posted for Raji: Raji beats blockers, including guys who get their mitts on him but good. I'd like to have seen ONE play from Brown that did the same. But it wasn't there.

Maybe he'll evolve, maybe he's got more than this reel shows. If so, then fire the guy who put it together.

[paranoidmoonduck]

My favorite footage of Brown is from the Maryland Bowl game where he played quite a few snaps at defensive tackle for the Seminoles and gave the Maryland interior line fits.

I really like Brown. But I like him much more as a 34 OLB than as a 43 DE and I don't see where he fits on this team.

[poptart]

Birdwell, your points are well taken.

What I see in Brown is a MAJOR disruptor.

Some of the "bad" tackle play in that vid' is a result of the tackle simply being OVERMATCHED by a really good defensive player.

Kind of like how everyone somehow always turned into a horseshit tackler when going after Barry Sanders in the open field.

There were a number of times there when Brown was engaged by an O-Lineman, ... and he made the O-Lineman look silly.

By accounts I see, Brown is a good kid.
He was a big-time player in a big-time conference.
He's majorly athletic and relentless ... a terrific motor.
We need help at DE.

I don't know, man, but I think this guy has a chance to be a really good NFLer.

I could see us going other directions, but as I said, my own take is that this would be a good pick for us.

[Sleet]

I'm tired of tweener/edge rush guys. We have Burgess and Scott. We need size on the DL. And there are players with size and speed in this draft at DE (Jackson, Ayers, Johnson, Gilbert, Kruger). Jackson may be a better fit as a 3-4 DE, possibly Gilbert, too, but I like Ayers, Johnson and Kruger more than Brown or Orakpo, particular given where they are likely to go in the draft.

[Rupert]

Birdwell: I thought the VaTech tackle looked decent. He wasn't ready for a guy that quick or relentless and didn't time his punches well. But he got hands on Brown. Brown spun through the punch once and made the tackle lean (fucker should have moved his feet to mirror) and threw him another time. Those two plays were impressive. Yeah in the NFL they're more used to speed rushers, but Brown would have done that to Kwame and Sims too.

The Chenchin', uhhh, I mean Clemson tackle is a total stiff. Holy shit!

Smoked the BC RT from the 9 (kinda why Al likes putting a speed rusher at LDE). Who really expects a RT to deal with a speed rusher out that wide?

Did someone give him the Wake Forest snap count? Essentially unblocked in those highlights, but it showed field speed and COD.

Against Maryland he slaps the punch away before spinning past the guard. Poorly timed punch because the guard is not used to that kind of speed, but he's playing DT. 76 is just too slow to deal with Brown. So they throw in another guard 72 and double Brown with the C. They get a good punch on him, stop him dead, then forget about him (LOL), and he makes the play. When he went outside the LT looked like Gallery at LT trying to deal with a speed rusher. On the last play the LT had adjusted, but Brown stood him up and drove him back (and advantage to being about 4 inches shorter than your opponent) before swatting the pass.

A typical highlight vid. Long on spectacular results, short on solid basics.

The Maryland and VA Tech tackles looked good to me, not great, but good. And I'm sure they did a good job against Brown the rest of those games. Still Brown showed what a speed rusher should in those highlights. The ability to take advantage of his speed to make a blocker miss or miss-time their blockss.

When he was making the Maryland Guards and Center look dog slow, my one thought was Rod Coleman. Rod came to us almost exactly the same size as Brown. I was stunned when Al put 30 lbs on him and moved him to DT from OLB. We know the rest. He made interior linemen look silly and work extremely hard the rest of his career.

I think he could be something.

[Rupert]

Okay, all that said. I dragged my ass through a Michael Johnson highlight vid.

I definitely like him better for what I think we need at DE.

However, I don't think either of them is a top 10 pick. Brown might go 15-20 and Johnson could go 20-30 (I'm not looking at draft order or possible team needs) I'm just doing a Kiper-esque overall eval.

Off to watch Orakpo.

[Birdwell]

poptart, I could engage him, too, but my skillset just isn't there. Kinda like those OTs. (Stand up straight, yeah, that's work, lean don't move your feet, that's aboy -- gimme a break).

True story: During the debacle that was SB XXXVII, I must have shouted at full throat the words "hit-wrap-drive" maybe twenty times. That summer, my then 6-year old step-daughter finally asked me what that phrase meant. I took her outside, stepped back about eight feet, leaned forward slightly, and told her to run into me as fast as she could to try to knock me down. Needless to say, she bounced. Then I told her to go back again, run at me again, but THIS time, HIT me with her shoulder while WRAPPING her arms around me while continuing to DRIVE with her legs. Same, lean, this time I went down. Then I told her, the Raiders did in the SB what you did the first time, I was screaming for them to do what you did the second time.

Rupert, I hear you on being physically overmatched, misapplying skills, bad timing. But, as you note, mirroring rather than leaning is the idea. Not standing straight up is a good idea. timing your punhes strategically rather than just whenever the hell you can is a good idea. In fact, these are, as you note, solid fundamentals. Would have liked to see film of him against Monroe, but the Noles didn't play UVA this season. That would be highlight reel material for someone, and I know who.

[Rupert]

Watched the Orakpo vid (after a long phone conversation). I was surprised to see some run defense in there. Orakpo looks like a better version of Johnson. I definitely see why he's touted as the best DE in the draft. He's Brown and Johnson in one package. Based on the highlight vids alone, make mine Orakpo.

[Jack's sore libido]

That summer, my then 6-year old step-daughter finally asked me what that phrase meant. ... Same, lean, this time I went down.

Sounds to me like you're a bit of a wuss. :D

It's a highlight reel, dude.

Good players make bad players look silly in highlight reels.

Brown will make a lot of NFL players look silly, too.

[CrossBones]

Sounds to me like you're a bit of a wuss. :D

It's a highlight reel, dude.

Good players make bad players look silly in highlight reels.

Brown will make a lot of NFL players look silly, too.Yeah, I always chuckle when potential clients ask to see "samples of our work". What exactly do they expect me to give them? Stuff that looks terrible? :shakehead:

[Rupert]

Yeah, I always chuckle when potential clients ask to see "samples of our work". What exactly do they expect me to give them? Stuff that looks terrible? :shakehead:

Yeah, you give them something crappy and say, "This is the best we can do when the client is a tight-fisted penny-pincher."

Then you hand them something spectacular and say, "This is what we do when our client shuts the hell up and lets us do our job."

That would go over well. :pound:

[poptart]

About the only potential "knock" on Brown, as I see it, is his height -- 6'2".

Right now, Brown is essentially the same size as our D. Burgess.

I'd prefer to see a DE be an inch or two/three taller, but there are PLENTY of guys who get after the QB at Brown's height.

[Sleet]

That's true. Two of them played here the last two years (Clemons, Edwards). They are PLENTY. We NEED a guy with size to stop the run (Ayers, Johnson, Gilbert, Kruger) and get after the QB (Ayers, Johnson, Gibert, Kruger). Al can pick up a small edge rush type to compete with Burgess and Scott after the draft via FA.

[NIPS]

That's true. Two of them played here the last two years (Clemons, Edwards). They are PLENTY. We NEED a guy with size to stop the run (Ayers, Johnson, Gilbert, Kruger) and get after the QB (Ayers, Johnson, Gibert, Kruger). Al can pick up a small edge rush type to compete with Burgess and Scott after the draft via FA.

Everette Brown was tied for 4th in the nation on tackles for loss (running plays) with 21.5 tackles for losses

FInished season with 36 stops with a career-high 30 unassisted tackles and 36 total tackles

36 tackles is pretty fuckin solid for playing 12 games.. 30 solo tackles begs to make a pretty solid case he aint weak vs the run

[Rupert]

That's true. Two of them played here the last two years (Clemons, Edwards). They are PLENTY. We NEED a guy with size to stop the run (Ayers, Johnson, Gilbert, Kruger) and get after the QB (Ayers, Johnson, Gibert, Kruger). Al can pick up a small edge rush type to compete with Burgess and Scott after the draft via FA.

Don't forget that Scott has size. He's 6-5. We obviously hope to have a two-way threat in him.

We can definitely go either of two ways in the draft. A guy with size to compete and push Richardson. A guy with pass rush skills to replce Burgess (though recent history says we're more likely to try to find a gem on the FA market).

[s.dot88]

the one thing i dont like about Brown is that his 13 sacks this past season came in 5 games

that tells me he dominated some guys, and didnt finish the job against others. i didnt watch much of Brown so i wont say he's inconsistant, but i would have liked to see those sacks spread out a bit more.

[Postmaster]

the one thing i dont like about Brown is that his 13 sacks this past season came in 5 games

that tells me he dominated some guys, and didnt finish the job against others. i didnt watch much of Brown so i wont say he's inconsistant, but i would have liked to see those sacks spread out a bit more.

Vernon Gholston disease?

[NIPS]

the one thing i dont like about Brown is that his 13 sacks this past season came in 5 games

that tells me he dominated some guys, and didnt finish the job against others. i didnt watch much of Brown so i wont say he's inconsistant, but i would have liked to see those sacks spread out a bit more.

They only play 12 games in college tho'

[poptart]

It's not unusual for sacks to come in bunches for quality pass rushers.

Just for example, of last year's five top NFL sackers, this is what we see.

Jared Allen - 7 games with not one sack
James Harrison - 5 games
John Abraham - 7 games
Joey Porter - 5 games

DeMarcus Ware was the only guy that got a full sack in nearly every game played.

[Rupert]

It's not unusual for sacks to come in bunches for quality pass rushers.

Just for example, of last year's five top NFL sackers, this is what we see.

Jared Allen - 7 games with not one sack
James Harrison - 5 games
John Abraham - 7 games
Joey Porter - 5 games

DeMarcus Ware was the only guy that got a full sack in nearly every game played.

Yep. Like when Burgess pulled his 16 sack season he had 6 multi-sack games. Someone else can go back and find the real numbers because there was probably at least 1 3-sack game, but... If he only got 2 sacks in those multi-sack games that's 12 in 6 games, leaving 4 sacks in the remaining 10 games, or 6 games without a sack.

That's fairly typical of sack artists. Bunches.

[poptart]

Burgess had 6 games with no sacks that year.

He had 4 games with 1 sack.

He had 6 games with 2 sacks.

[Birdwell]

Sounds to me like you're a bit of a wuss. :D



Nope, just a parent trying to make a point.

And some highlight reels actually show technique and stuff.

[Raider Bill]

Rod came to us almost exactly the same size as Brown. I was stunned when Al put 30 lbs on him and moved him to DT from OLB

Al had nothing to do with it. Coleman was playing the 3 technique on the scout team to get the club ready to face John Randle (or someone like that) and the coaches noticed the OL had a difficult time blocking him.

[Rupert]

Al had nothing to do with it. Coleman was playing the 3 technique on the scout team to get the club ready to face John Randle (or someone like that) and the coaches noticed the OL had a difficult time blocking him.

So without consulting Al, they had Coleman put on 30 lbs? Yeah, that tracks. Which is it Bill? Al controls how much oxygen everyone gets at the Raiders' facilities, or he has zero control? I guess it depends upon whether it turned out well or not. :rolleyes:

[Raider Bill]

He was about 260 coming out and played DT at that weight that 1st season. He was being looked at as an OLB or DE IIRC.

[Raider Bill]

Heh, found a link

Coleman, 29, began his career as an end but moved inside as a rookie in 1999 when the Raiders, preparing for a game against the Vikings, needed someone to impersonate the tenacious John Randle on scout team.

"They asked me to slide inside, work with the guards and get after the quarterback in practice. It was history from there," Coleman says. "They put me inside and gave me a chance to get on the field."

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:gOvAiXjb8aIJ:www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2005-10-19-weisman-notebook_x.htm+Rod+Coleman+scout+team&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[Rupert]

Heh, found a link

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:gOvAiXjb8aIJ:www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2005-10-19-weisman-notebook_x.htm+Rod+Coleman+scout+team&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Yep. At that time Al watched every practice and made plenty of position recommendations. I'm not sure why you think Al wasn't involved.

[Rupert]

He was about 260 coming out and played DT at that weight that 1st season. He was being looked at as an OLB or DE IIRC.
He came here as an OLB we were looking at him as a pass-rushing DE, listed at 255. We had him bulk up to 260-265 that 1st season. In the off season we had him bulk up to 285-290 and permanently move to DT. He was a terror at DE, so I was surprised by the move inside. Then we saw the results. Not too shabby.

[Jack's sore libido]

And some highlight reels actually show technique and stuff.

I watched the same highlight reel as you, and I come away from it with a very different opinion of Brown's technique.

Sure looks to me like he's got all the moves. He's got the spin, the shoulder dip, the club, the bull rush ... all highlighted in that clip.

What's there, one or two plays in that 9-minute clip where he's unblocked? And that's what you chose to level your gripe about ...

[NIPS]

I would say get ready to push for the AFCWest division if we take Brown #1 - Ron Brace #2 and Michael Mitchell at #3

Jarrett Dillard in rd 4 if he's there if not grab OT Alex Boone

I watched that Jets/Raiders replay... and with a healthy Walker... Russell has plenty of weapons... plenty!

BTW - Nips has invaded NYC.. staying at the Rosevelt hotel.. kid got selected to be in some kid book/movie.. Leaving friday back home.. crap.. theres tons of banners promoting the draft... and its right down the street.. I might think about staying an extra day if I can get a ticket

[Rupert]

I would say get ready to push for the AFCWest division if we take Brown #1 - Ron Brace #2 and Michael Mitchell at #3

Jarrett Dillard in rd 4 if he's there if not grab OT Alex Boone

I watched that Jets/Raiders replay... and with a healthy Walker... Russell has plenty of weapons... plenty!

BTW - Nips has invaded NYC.. staying at the Rosevelt hotel.. kid got selected to be in some kid book/movie.. Leaving friday back home.. crap.. theres tons of banners promoting the draft... and its right down the street.. I might think about staying an extra day if I can get a ticket

Don't do it! I don't want to hear, "AL you fucking idiot!" come across the uncensored NFLN mic after our pick. :pound:

[Rupert]

I watched the same highlight reel as you, and I come away from it with a very different opinion of Brown's technique.

Sure looks to me like he's got all the moves. He's got the spin, the shoulder dip, the club, the bull rush ... all highlighted in that clip.

What's there, one or two plays in that 9-minute clip where he's unblocked? And that's what you chose to level your gripe about ...

Nah, Birdwell also pointed our that the OT's often stood straight up and had poor footwork against Brown in that vid too.

I saw a couple OT's that looked okay, personally. And while I agree that he was essentially unblocked for about a half dozen plays in that vid, he showed great speed and pursuit, and a couple times showed very good change of direction in getting to the ball carrier.

Yes he showed all the moves and tricks, but not against superior competition. But as poptart pointed out, pass rushers usually make their name in a couple multi-sack games. I definitely agree that Brown is capable of that.

I personally think we have solid pass rushing and need more of a base-end to rotate with Richardson. But if we put a couple pounds of muscle on Scott, we'd have that. So we could go either way.

Regardless, we should add a DE this weekend.

[Jack's sore libido]

Nah, Birdwell also pointed our that the OT's often stood straight up and had poor footwork against Brown in that vid too.

OK, and that couldn't possibly have anything to do with Everette's quickness catching them off-guard and fucking with their heads ...

Yes he showed all the moves and tricks, but not against superior competition.

The ACC had 10 teams in bowl games last year. That's 10 out of 12. Brown wasn't playing in a mid-major.

I personally think we have solid pass rushing

I respectfully disagree, and don't think we can even count on the one guy we do have who has some talent -- Burgess -- because he's been getting nicked up so much.

[007]

At this point Brown is almost underrated.

Now way in HELL I take Tyson Jackson or Brian Orakpo over him because they weight 20 pounds more or measure up an inch or two taller.

The proof is in the film. The guy is a rock solid run defender and a dynamic pass rusher. I don't give a flying f*ck whether he's 250 or 280 when he moves as fluidly as Brown.

We could do a lot worse than him at the #7 pick, and although many think he's an OLB in a 3-4, I see 4-3 RE written all over Everette, personally.

[CrossBones]

Rupert...our pass rush sucks.

That is all.

[hawaiianboy]

Sure looks to me like he's got all the moves. He's got the spin, the shoulder dip, the club, the bull rush ... all highlighted in that clip.



His repertoire is pretty impressive for a college player... My biggest question about him is what is his natural playing weight in those videos... I'm not talking about what his combine weight was because he made a conscience effort to come in at an acceptable number, but what was his weight when he was actually playing because those reports of 225 scare me... Those reports flash me back to Cory Moore of Virginia Tech who was just a freak playing in the 220-225 range...


The biggest selling point to me would actually be what he was able to do to generate pressure his Jr year when he was lined up as a LE rather than in that wide 9 tech FSU has their RE play...

[massraider]

I am not an Everette Brown guy, but any negatives I have about the guy have nothing to do with his array of pass rush moves. He is far, far from a one-trick pony.

I have been reading stuff about him slipping into the 20's. I think that's madness.

[Madturk]

BTW - Nips has invaded NYC.. staying at the Rosevelt hotel.. kid got selected to be in some kid book/movie.. Leaving friday back home.. crap.. theres tons of banners promoting the draft... and its right down the street.. I might think about staying an extra day if I can get a ticket

Do me a favor if you go, punch Mayock on his lisp for me

[Jack's sore libido]

The biggest selling point to me would actually be what he was able to do to generate pressure his Jr year when he was lined up as a LE rather than in that wide 9 tech FSU has their RE play...

They really didn't do that Peter Boulware shit with him nearly as much as they had in the past with guys like Jamal Reynolds, Alonzo Jackson and Kam Wimbley.

Might be because they weren't as strong at DT as they were back then with Brodrick Bunkley, Jeff Wombley, Andre Fluellen, Letroy Giuon, Travis Johnson, Darnell Dockett ...

Let's face it, no one feared Budd Thacker. Brown HAD to play tighter, or else FSU would get gashed up the middle.

[PINGU]

70% - 0%


70% is the chance Derrick Burgess has a good year playing out the final year of his contract.


0% is the chance he re-signs with us after we fucked him on the long term extention we promised to give him but never gave.


6th rounder Jay Richardson, 6th rounder Trevor Scott, and XFL or arena bowler Grayson Gunhiem is all thats left.

WE NEED THE BEST PASS RUSHER WE CAN GET- AND EVENTUALLY HAVE TO PAY.

[PINGU]

They really didn't do that Peter Boulware shit with him nearly as much as they had in the past with guys like Jamal Reynolds, Alonzo Jackson and Kam Wimbley.

Might be because they weren't as strong at DT as they were back then with Brodrick Bunkley, Jeff Wombley, Andre Fluellen, Letroy Giuon, Travis Johnson, Darnell Dockett ...

Let's face it, no one feared Budd Thacker. Brown HAD to play tighter, or else FSU would get gashed up the middle.


Sure do know alot about dem noles. You live in Tallanasty?

[massraider]

0% is the chance he re-signs with us after we fucked him on the long term extention we promised to give him but never gave.


Umm, I'm gonna need a link to this particular 'fact'.

[Madturk]

70% - 0%


0% is the chance he re-signs with us after we fucked him on the long term extention we promised to give him but never gave.




Bullshit. When we signed Burgess, he was given a pretty lucrative deal for a player of his calibre and injury history at the time. No one else was going to pony up that kind of coin at the time.

You should know that we very rarely redo contracts mid term. In hindsight this worked out well for us since he's been oft injured the past 2 years.

[Sleet]

We need a 3 down DE, not a pass rush specialist (Scott, Edwards, Clemons) or base end who can't pressure the QB (Richardson). To me, that guys not the edge rushers being talked about. That guys more in the mold of Ayers, Johnson, Kruger, Gilbert.

[Jack's sore libido]

Sure do know alot about dem noles. You live in Tallanasty?

I went to school there. Live in Vegas now. Still, get to see almost every game (in Vegas, you can watch almost any game at a casino).

[Jack's sore libido]

Wow. Everette Brown is now being compared with Chris effing Clemons.

[Rupert]

OK, and that couldn't possibly have anything to do with Everette's quickness catching them off-guard and fucking with their heads ...

The ACC had 10 teams in bowl games last year. That's 10 out of 12. Brown wasn't playing in a mid-major.

I respectfully disagree, and don't think we can even count on the one guy we do have who has some talent -- Burgess -- because he's been getting nicked up so much.

Ummm, talking about the highlight vid ONLY. That's all I've seen of Brown.

And NO, Brown's quickness had absolutely nothing to do with the absolutely horrible technique the Clemson LT showed. No fucking way. Watch the video. Tha guy was an absolute stiff. Stood ramrod straight up after the snap. No lean, no squat, looked about as athletic as a fence post. Sorry, that had nothing to do with Brown. No way, no how.

The other two guys I said looked decent. Yep, Brown has something to do with them looking bad. I said it before, soooooooo ??? But how many highlights did he have against those guys? Yep only a couple. What happened the rest of those games? No highlights. Hmmm.

It's fine you disagree about Burgess and Scott. Perfectly fine. Can't project whether Burgess will be healthy or nicked up can we? I remember a lot of people saying Burgess was a stupid acquisition because he couldn't stay healthy. Then he put up two Pro Bowl caliber seasons. Rely on it? No. Rule it out? No.

As I said before, I could see us going pass rush or base end. Either would be acceptable to me. Getting neither would be unacceptable.

[Rupert]

Rupert...our pass rush sucks.

That is all.

Collectively yes. But when you talk about pass rushing DE, we've got two very good options. That's what I was talking about.

[007]

We don't have ANYTHING but question marks at DE.

Burgess is an injury waiting to happen, Trevor Scott is still an undersized, weak pass rusher who is developing nicely, and Richardson is a depth guy AT BEST. Will we get 2005 Burgess or 2008 Burgess? Will people key on Scott now or will it even matter? Will Richardson provide anything other than an occasional bullrush?

We need more bodies, and talented passrushers without question.

If we don't address the position, I'll be extremely dissapointed, because Gunheim and Scott getting significant snaps this early in their development is a nightmare waiting to happen.

[Jack's sore libido]

What happened the rest of those games? No highlights. Hmmm.

Not in that video.

That video is just his sacks and some TFLs, though. That doesn't mean he disappeared the rest of the games.

Some people don't put together highlight reels of plays that don't result in a sack. That's not Everette Brown's fault.

I remember a lot of people saying Burgess was a stupid acquisition because he couldn't stay healthy.

I wasn't one of them.

But he's also several years older now, and he's been nicked up the past two years. He's not reliable at this point. Anything we get from him is a bonus.

[NIPS]

How can you play every down as a DE in college and then have some question whether you can play every down in the NFL

What the fuck gives?

[Rupert]

How can you play every down as a DE in college and then have some question whether you can play every down in the NFL

What the fuck gives?

It shouldn't be questioned from a physical standpoint. I think the question is whether he'd hold up as a run defender. Shrug.

[Rupert]

Not in that video.

That video is just his sacks and some TFLs, though. That doesn't mean he disappeared the rest of the games.

Some people don't put together highlight reels of plays that don't result in a sack. That's not Everette Brown's fault.
I know. I just said, all I've seen of him is in that vid. What else do I have to judge by? The stat line against VT is pretty good for a DE, 5 tackles, 4 for loss and 3 sacks. A great game.

So what is our biggest concern? A pass rushing DE or stopping the run?

I'm betting they'll try to put more lbs on Scott to make him a two-way threat, which leaves room for a pass rusher to replace Burgess if / when he leaves. But what have we done the past 3 seasons? Acquired some fringe player in hopes of finding someone to take on the job. We let two of them go as free agents and still have Scott because he's a low-paid kid.

I don't think Al Davis is worried about finding pass rushers, but that's just what recent history tells us.

[Sleet]

While I want Raji, if I had to grade what is a bigger need DT (Kelly, Warren, Sands, Joseph, guy from Redskins) or DE (Burgess, Scott, Richardson, Gunheim, guy from Redskins), I'd say DE. So, after round 1, I'll be rooting for DE at #40, then rooting for a Day 1 DE trade, then a DE in round 3. And I'll be hoping for a guy with some size (Ayers, Johnson, Gilbert, Kruger), not jsut another edge rusher who, at least as a rookie, won't hold up at the point of attack.

[Raidervinny]

We don't have ANYTHING but question marks at DE.

Burgess is an injury waiting to happen, Trevor Scott is still an undersized, weak pass rusher who is developing nicely, and Richardson is a depth guy AT BEST. Will we get 2005 Burgess or 2008 Burgess? Will people key on Scott now or will it even matter? Will Richardson provide anything other than an occasional bullrush?

We need more bodies, and talented passrushers without question.

If we don't address the position, I'll be extremely dissapointed, because Gunheim and Scott getting significant snaps this early in their development is a nightmare waiting to happen.


I respectfully disagree...rushing the passer is a luxury for us this year but stopping the run is a necessity! Last year we had 32 sacks as a team. The following teams had even less:

Tampa Bay - 29
Indianapolis - 30
Washington - 24
New England - 31
Green Bay - 27
Buffalo - 24
Houston - 25
Arizona - 31
New Orleans - 28
Jacksonville - 29
Denver - 26
Chicago - 28
San Diego - 28

To me, this shows that you don't need a ton of sacks to win in this league...you need to score points and/or stop the run. We should continue to build the offense and look for run stoppers on D (DT, LB, S) this year and look for DE help next year. A pass rushing DE won't do us any good on 2nd & 3 or 3rd and 1 and the other team is pounding the ball down our throats.

[Raidervinny]

How can you play every down as a DE in college and then have some question whether you can play every down in the NFL

What the fuck gives?


Same reason why small running backs that carry the load in college are questioned whether they can carry the load in the NFL...size.

[Jack's sore libido]

I don't think Al Davis is worried about finding pass rushers, but that's just what recent history tells us.

Well, until Al drafted JaMarcus, we all said he wasn't worried about finding a QB in the draft, too.

But my point isn't to say Al Davis should draft Brown, or will draft Brown.

My point is to say that the criticisms leveled against Brown in this thread are bogus.

[Sleet]

RV: So true.

[Rupert]

Well, until Al drafted JaMarcus, we all said he wasn't worried about finding a QB in the draft, too.

But my point isn't to say Al Davis should draft Brown, or will draft Brown.

My point is to say that the criticisms leveled against Brown in this thread are bogus.

I disagree with the JaMarcus comment, but...

I don't think the criticisms levelled against Brown are bogus at all. I think they're right on point with where his game is lacking. I think they're overstated and underemphasize the skills he brings, but bogus? No, they're legit.

At this time of year, everything gets blown out of proportion. Scouts (both pro and amateur) start by looking at where a guy has skills and they go all ape shit over his skills. Then they worry about his weaknesses and go all ape shit about them.

Do we have some lowlight vids to watch? Let's really pump up the negative too. :pound:

[NIPS]

Same reason why small running backs that carry the load in college are questioned whether they can carry the load in the NFL...size.

They said the same thing about DMAC and running through the tackles

All he did was pop off a4 yard average between the tackles..

They said the same thing about Maurice-Drew

[Raidervinny]

They said the same thing about DMAC and running through the tackles

All he did was pop off a4 yard average between the tackles..

They said the same thing about Maurice-Drew

Hey, you and I know there's always exceptions to the rules (Sam Mills, Zach Thomas, Jones-Drew, Dwight Freeney) but you asked why there are QUESTIONS about a guy coming out of college being able to duplicate his sucess in the NFL. It usually comes down to size. Quite often a smaller guy just can't take the pounding of facing bigger, faster and stronger guys at the NFL level.

[NIPS]

Hey, you and I know there's always exceptions to the rules (Sam Mills, Zach Thomas, Jones-Drew, Dwight Freeney) but you asked why there are QUESTIONS about a guy coming out of college being able to duplicate his sucess in the NFL. It usually comes down to size. Quite often a smaller guy just can't take the pounding of facing bigger, faster and stronger guys at the NFL level.


I find it hard to believe that E. Brown is just 10 lbs lighter than Dwight Freeny yet many say Brown cant handle it as an everydown DE because of 10 fuckin lbs

It's all bullshit

LB's that weigh 220 play full time and take on FB's, OL on running plays all the time

[Rupert]

I find it hard to believe that E. Brown is just 10 lbs lighter than Dwight Freeny yet many say Brown cant handle it as an everydown DE because of 10 fuckin lbs

It's all bullshit

LB's that weigh 220 play full time and take on FB's, OL on running plays all the time

The problem is, many question whether that was his actual playing wieght at FSU, or just the weight he showed up at the combine with.

[Jack's sore libido]

He showed up at the combine at that weight, and still ran fast.

He showed up at his pro day at that weight, and still had a flawless workout.

NFL teams can make sure a guy keeps his weight up.

You often can't tell a guy's weight by looking at him, but he sure looked bigger than Derrick Brooks to me.

[Raidervinny]

I find it hard to believe that E. Brown is just 10 lbs lighter than Dwight Freeny yet many say Brown cant handle it as an everydown DE because of 10 fuckin lbs

It's all bullshit

LB's that weigh 220 play full time and take on FB's, OL on running plays all the time

Freeney is a liability against the run as well. Even though Indy's run D is suspect they are able to mask a lot of their problems by simply outscoring the other team. Then, when the other team is trying to pass their way back into the game, Freeney become a much more dangerous player. We don't have the proven scoring ability the Colts have so we teams can continue to run the ball against us making E. Brown an afterthought.

220 lb linebackers that don't have good tackles in front of them to occupy the O linemen get washed out damn near every time.

E. Brown would be a better fit on a 3-4 D. If he went to a 4-3 team it would have to be a team like the Vikings that have good DT's and would allow him to do what he does best...rush the passer.

[Raidervinny]

He showed up at the combine at that weight, and still ran fast.

He showed up at his pro day at that weight, and still had a flawless workout.

NFL teams can make sure a guy keeps his weight up.

You often can't tell a guy's weight by looking at him, but he sure looked bigger than Derrick Brooks to me.

E. Brown would be lining up against the LT on every single play...Derrick Brooks didn't get within spitting distance of the LT on ANY play.

[Jack's sore libido]

Not the point.

Point is that rumor that Brown weighed 225 at FSU seems bogus to me. Brooks was 220. Brown looked markedly bigger than Brooks to me.

[Raider Bill]

He looks like he's 245 or so to me. I like Brown, but not at 7.

You have to get a 4 down player in that slot IMO.

[NIPS]

like the Vikings that have good DT's and would allow him to do what he does best...rush the passer.

Ive seen this a lot of times in posts and still cant figure out how in the hell a DT makes a DE better

Teams pass and run are real close ratios

[Raider Bill]

Ive seen this a lot of times in posts and still cant figure out how in the hell a DT makes a DE better

Teams pass and run are real close ratios

I think you could protect Brown out there in a 2000 Ravens kind of setup with 2 mammoth DT's tying up the entire interior OL and 3 active LB's not having to deal with a lot of traffic.

Not only that, interior pressure improves the DE's angle to the QB.

If Brown is just flying upfield every play you have to hold the edge with the OLB/CB. I don't know, I'm not saying he cant be a successful player, I like pass rushers, but at 6'2" I kinda see him being more effective as a 3-4 "Joker" LB.

If you're going to select a DE this high, he needs to be a Peppers/Mario Williams type IMO and I just don't see one of those guys.

[poptart]

Who do you want to take at #7?

[NIPS]

I think you could protect Brown out there in a 2000 Ravens kind of setup with 2 mammoth DT's tying up the entire interior OL and 3 active LB's not having to deal with a lot of traffic.

Not only that, interior pressure improves the DE's angle to the QB.

If Brown is just flying upfield every play you have to hold the edge with the OLB/CB. I don't know, I'm not saying he cant be a successful player, I like pass rushers, but at 6'2" I kinda see him being more effective as a 3-4 "Joker" LB.

If you're going to select a DE this high, he needs to be a Peppers/Mario Williams type IMO and I just don't see one of those guys.


Wouldnt 2 great run DT's just force the RB to bounce outside?

If you got a DE that your suspect on his run defensive skills.. then all your doing is forcing more running plays to his side if you got two big bitches in the middle no?

Just never bought into that theory and still dont

I happen to think a guy like Brown would actually make DT's better if anything

His pressure most likely will force the QB to step up and be in arms reach of the DT

[Raider Bill]

Wouldnt 2 great run DT's just force the RB to bounce outside?

If you got a DE that your suspect on his run defensive skills.. then all your doing is forcing more running plays to his side if you got two big bitches in the middle no?

Just never bought into that theory and still dont

I happen to think a guy like Brown would actually make DT's better if anything

His pressure most likely will force the QB to step up and be in arms reach of the DT

Usually in a 4-3 defense the DE doesn't necessarily have to make the tackle on an outside run, he just needs to be able to anchor and spill the play outside (ie not get downblocked or hook blocked,"wrong arm" or blow up any pulling linemen,and keep the RB running laterally.)

That's how we played it from Pop Warner to College.

[Jack's sore libido]

I don't really see why people think Everette Brown can't do that job.

Unless they're just saying, "He's fast, so he must be bad against the run."

[Madturk]

I don't really see why people think Everette Brown can't do that job.

Unless they're just saying, "He's fast, so he must be bad against the run."

I don't either, he's exceptionally strong for a guy his size and could easily put on 10-15 more lbs without losing much quickness. Stand up guy with exceptional work ethic and impeccable off field character, highly unusual for FSU athletes :p Guy is going to be a terror in the NFL IMO.

[Raider Bill]

To be honest, I haven't watched him much. Not many 6'1" stud 2 way DE's though. My concern would be with him getting outleveraged by guys 4-5 inches taller than him. Unless he has ridiculous wingspan like Elvis Dumverville, who is still only a situational guy.

[Madturk]

They have him listed at 6' 2". Freeney goes 6' 1". Not sure of his wingspan but d he does have some long ass arms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXJJ14HL5EE

[Jack's sore libido]

I have no problem spending the 1.7 on a player who might come off the field on third-and-short.

This is becoming a pass-first league. Pass rushers are crucial. Especially when you play as much man-to-man as Oakland.

[Jack's sore libido]

Brown's arm length is 33 inches.

[NIPS]

Usually in a 4-3 defense the DE doesn't necessarily have to make the tackle on an outside run, he just needs to be able to anchor and spill the play outside (ie not get downblocked or hook blocked,"wrong arm" or blow up any pulling linemen,and keep the RB running laterally.)

That's how we played it from Pop Warner to College.

Wut? A DE dosent have to make a tackle on an outside run? Is that how you guys roll on the east coast? really?

I played a little safety in my younger days in Cali and it was clear to all oif us to never, ever allow a RB to get outside.. We always forced the RB inside so LB's and others could make the tackle

You allow a RB outside and more than likely you'll see nothing but elbows and ass

[RaiderRobert]

Usually in a 4-3 defense the DE doesn't necessarily have to make the tackle on an outside run, he just needs to be able to anchor and spill the play outside (ie not get downblocked or hook blocked,"wrong arm" or blow up any pulling linemen,and keep the RB running laterally.)

That's how we played it from Pop Warner to College.

That sounds more like a 3-4 DE to me...

[Byron2112]

That's basically what Bill said, try to turn the play inside, but if you can't, hold your position and string the play to the sideline. You're still not letting the play get outside you..... that's high school stuff

[Raider Bill]

That sounds more like a 3-4 DE to me...

The gap responsibility is different as far as I know.. we never really played 3-4.

It's not so much not letting the guy get outside you, it's more about flooding the running lanes and not letting the guy get square to the LOS.

[RaiderRobert]

The gap responsibility is different as far as I know.. we never really played 3-4.

It's not so much not letting the guy get outside you, it's more about flooding the running lanes and not letting the guy get square to the LOS.

I'm also thinking that is how the option is defended, and not alot of option being run in the NFL...

[Rupert]

Usually in a 4-3 defense the DE doesn't necessarily have to make the tackle on an outside run, he just needs to be able to anchor and spill the play outside (ie not get downblocked or hook blocked,"wrong arm" or blow up any pulling linemen,and keep the RB running laterally.)

That's how we played it from Pop Warner to College.

Yep. That's how the Raiders have used it and the Sam these past several years. Neither is really designed to make the tackle unlessthe RB is dumb enough to try to run at him. Both are supposed to string the play out behind the LOS and let other guys make the tackle.

[Raider Bill]

I'm also thinking that is how the option is defended, and not alot of option being run in the NFL...

every defense I ever played in you had "fits" vs the run, ie you fit in somewhere and held your ground...no matter the type of run.

[RaiderRobert]

every defense I ever played in you had "fits" vs the run, ie you fit in somewhere and held your ground...no matter the type of run.

Yes, gap responsibility, contain, etc... As I played it, either myself or the Sam traded contain depending upon formation. If i had contain, NOTHING went outside me. I was to keep everything inside and let Sam and others clean up. If Sam had contain, I was to blow up everything in site on way to whoever had the ball...

[Rupert]

The gap responsibility is different as far as I know.. we never really played 3-4.

It's not so much not letting the guy get outside you, it's more about flooding the running lanes and not letting the guy get square to the LOS.

Yep. There are many ways to run "force" (the guy who forces the RB back inside) but it's typically NOT the DE, especially on plays run wide.

On wide plays the DE will most likely have a blocker playside of him trying to prevent the DE from crossing his face.

So when the DE is reached, his #1 responsibility is to NOT get driven downfield, #2 NOT get walled off, #3 cross the blocker's face.

#1 is obvious.
#2 means keep moving laterally to stretch the play toward the sideline (you're extra tackler).
#3 is last because unblocked defenders should be able to get there before you can cross the face of a good blocker.

If the defense is set up like this, the primary unblocked defenders will not be looking for the cutback. They will flow to the outside to make the play. Backside defenders will be responsible for the cutback. If the DE works hard to get outside to make the play, he will open up the cutback lane pretty wide. Also, he can put himself in position to be pancaked or driven downfield into the path of would-be tacklers.

The key for a DE when getting reached is to either beat the blocker quickly or drive it wide to string the play out for the pursuit.

[Rupert]

Yes, gap responsibility, contain, etc... As I played it, either myself or the Sam traded contain depending upon formation. If i had contain, NOTHING went outside me. I was to keep everything inside and let Sam and others clean up. If Sam had contain, I was to blow up everything in site on way to whoever had the ball...

There's the key. It dictates whether you play inside out or outside in.

[Raider Bill]

That under defense we always use doesn't use the ends for contain they want to spill the play outside.

[Rupert]

That under defense we always use doesn't use the ends for contain they want to spill the play outside.

Yep. That's why formation was a key to his statement.

We even use the Sam to pursue inside out and keep gap control.

That puts it ALL on the safeties which makes me wonder why we don't value them much more than we do.

No wait! That's why we drafted a high-tackling CB/S tweener in the 1st a couple years back.

The way we do it the Safety definitely needs boatloads of speed to pursue sideline to sideline, but then he's GOT to collect the tackle too.

We really put ourselves into a tight spot with that approach.

If we used backer force we could use a slower and stronger safety to pursue inside out and maybe get a couple more big hits on the RB.

Oh well, dreams.

[massraider]

The way we do it the Safety definitely needs boatloads of speed to pursue sideline to sideline, but then he's GOT to collect the tackle too.

We really put ourselves into a tight spot with that approach.



Especially with a hot-and-cold pass rush. I just am not sure the safety exists that could thrive under the conditons we ask them to play. It is just too easy to blame the guy that is closest to the receiver after the D-line gives the QB 5 seconds to pass the ball, or misses the tackle on a RB after he gets a free pass into the secondary.

We throw up a brick will in the middle of the defense, or some rush from the blind side, and our safeties will suddenly look a lot better. Troy Polamalu does not have the range of any of our safeties, but QBs rarely have the time to expose him, and he makes plays because opposing passers have Harrison, Woodley etc. hanging off of hiim.

[Birdwell]

Dunno about this. Too many plays, I see the DE being treated like everyone else on that side like he has contain. But then the temptation to go inside the T gets the best of them, and contain is gone.

The reason why our 3rd round draft pick DE two years ago got cut in camp had a lot to do with him not even knowing that there was such a thing as contain.

Yeah, upon occasion contain is the responsibility of the SAM or the WILL, but not most of the time. Marshall should get this straightened out.

[Rupert]

Dunno about this. Too many plays, I see the DE being treated like everyone else on that side like he has contain. But then the temptation to go inside the T gets the best of them, and contain is gone.

The reason why our 3rd round draft pick DE two years ago got cut in camp had a lot to do with him not even knowing that there was such a thing as contain.

Yeah, upon occasion contain is the responsibility of the SAM or the WILL, but not most of the time. Marshall should get this straightened out.

Backer force is the most common in the game.

DL usually control running lanes.

If you're saying a DE has contain on a pass rush, I get that, but against the run he's got a lane or controlling a gap (whichever way you want to state it).

If his responsibility is the outside shoulder of the OT and there's no TE then he's got the outside responsibility but he should pursue inside out. With the TE there force should be the Sam's responsibility unless (as we often did) Sam becomes the true end and we use Sky (safety) force.

If the DE is lined up in a 9 technique, I can understand him being the force, but we don't use that formation very often.

I remember the big hits DeLawrence Grant and Sam Williams made (yeah, three or four, how could anyone forget? Shaddup.). They were the Sam and had force. They got outside leverage on the TE, got him to lean into them, shed him and just laid the lumber on the RB who cut back inside. God those hits were beautiful. Can we get a Sam that makes plays like that more often?

Remember, in the Under the Sam is on the LOS and is essentially the defensive end. In the run game he has the outside gap responsibility, NOT force (or contain as some are calling it). His pursuit angle is inside out not outside in. If he's supposed to provide force, he has to get free from his blocker (TE) which means getting wide at the snap or shooting upfield. Neither is the proper technique (or even sensible) if you're going to control a wide point of attack.

If the TE tries to reach him (get outside of him) he's got to get his outside half free and prevent the TE from getting playside leverage on him. He's also got to NOT get driven wide to keep gap control. This is not conducive to providing force. The Mike will be inside over the guard and will pursue inside out. The only options in this case are the safety or corner forcing the runner back inside.

In the event the TE faces him up and tries to drive him outside, he's got to keep his outside arm free and compress the inside gap. In this case he can be the force as he's got the edge controlled and has to keep everything inside of him. The TE's blocking angle is condusive to the Sam providing force (assuming the Sam can handle the blocker).

I agree. I look forward to a better defensive approach from Marshall. A little more balance would be nice. But also a Sam who doesn't get engulfed by the blocker at the point of attack and can actually provide force would go a long way to correcting some of our most glaring problems.

[Point&Shoot]

Backer force is the most common in the game....


Nice post. Thanks for the insight.