Defensive Discussion

[RaiderIVlife]

Sort of a trial balloon, but let's see if a 'general discussion', but on topic, will be worthwhile...

DEFENSE

Much is said about the defense, and perhaps even more 'passion' is directed towards Rob Ryan.

Are they a defense that is mediocre (at best) against the run?

Are they a defense that has no pass rush?

Are they a defense that will always wilt or "choke" with the game on the line?

Are they a defense that looks occasionally dominant?

Are they a talented, but thin, unit?

Are they a unit that requires a complete overhaul?

I guess it really boits down all points being true to a agree.

While all the negatives are at times true, it's also true that our defense is at times pretty damn good. There has to be a reasons for both?

Whether you hate Rob Ryan (more on that later) or you don't like our talent, you have to admit that they are on balance an "average" squad.

If our offense wasn't so incredibly 'bad', they are good enough to win you 10 games with a great offense or 8 games with a solid offense.

Talent?
Talk all you want about Sam Williams, Kirk Morrison or the revolving door at FS & 2CB, but the bottom line is that we are playing with only (5) legit players along the D-line - all of whom are solid, but not above average players. Richardson, Edwards, Sands, Kelly and Warren are all solid 'wave players'. None are game changers, per say, but all fit well in team context.

This is why they are alternately very good & sub-standard. No game changers in the Julius Peppers & Albert Haynesworth way.

Moreover, we don't have enough viable bodies (sorry, Trevor Scott and Mister 9 positions don't count). Scott might have a future, but he's a 1-trick pony at this point and that one trick is not decisive enough. He's a liability on the field at this time. He get's trucked in the run game and OT's handle him on most pass plays as well.

Rob Ryan/Scheme

People say that Oakland needs to be consistent in terms, of philosophy? Really? Seems to me that Oakland is pretty damn consistent in it's desire to run the base 4/3 defense designed to play physical, prevent big plays and eventually force the big turnover, to win football games IS indeed a sound philosophy. I'd say it's still the best philosophy in regard to defense.

Of course this style is only succesful if you have talented enough players. We don't, particularly on the defense line, and we see the results.

I think we all realize that that Al Davis is to blame here. Period. We not only haven't drafted any guys high enough, but we haven't drafted enough overall. I'm sorry, but one 6th rounder stab per draft is not enough for me. Getting burned on Quentin Moses shouldn't negate the need to draft more aggressively IMO. THe problem is that Al Davis keeps thinking that every dude he takes in the 5th or 6th rounder will be the next Jared Allen, or Roderick Coleman, etc. Truth is, most times, they won't.

On top of that, our FA signings are typically past their prime (Trace Armstrong & Warren Sapp) types or they are former high round guys that fizzled elswhere. Truth is, if guys like Gerrard Warren and Kalimba Edwards can be had so easily, they are NOT above average players (I'll insert the 9 out of 10 times caveat here).

Put it this way, if you add Jared Allen/Albert Haynesworth to this defenes and make ZERO upgrades elswhere, and this 'D' is top-10 IMO. Easy.

Rob Ryan is running the style of Defense that is mandated by Team Philosophy and the talent is not equal to the task. RR might not be a 'Great' coordinator in the least, but I still say he's a competent and possibly charasmatic coach that could win with 2 above average DL and something, anything, from the offense.

[BigTron]

We dont control the edge's our DE play is some of the worst in the NFL. They only look good practicing againt Kwame and Cornhell

[poptart]

Our offense is woefully inept, so certainly our defense has a giant brick tied to it's ankle.

That said, our defense is well below average.

We are 27th in the league in 3rd down percentage allowed.
It's a very telling stat, imo.

One week we can't get pressure on the QB.
Another week we can't slow the run at all ... well that's actually most every week.
Next week we do a pretty good job but give up one or two BIG killer plays at the wrong time.

We're just not good.

We've got one great player, a handful of good players and a handful of scrubs as starters.
And we have almost no depth.

We BADLY need a couple of big and capable bodies on the D-Line.

Add those bodies and our defense may get up to middle-of-the-pack (or slightly better) status.

[CrossBones]

Our offense is woefully inept, so certainly our defense has a giant brick tied to it's ankle.

That said, our defense is well below average.

We are 27th in the league in 3rd down percentage allowed.
It's a very telling stat, imo.

One week we can't get pressure on the QB.
Another week we can't slow the run at all ... well that's actually most every week.
Next week we do a pretty good job but give up one or two BIG killer plays at the wrong time.

We're just not good.

We've got one great player, a handful of good players and a handful of scrubs as starters.
And we have almost no depth.

We BADLY need a couple of big and capable bodies on the D-Line.

Add those bodies and our defense may get up to middle-of-the-pack (or slightly better) status.Well EXACTLY. The defense isn't very good at all. Look at the stats. They tell the whole story. They're ranking in the league is NOT good. It's not even average.

So who's gonna come with the "Kirk Morrision is really good" take? He's not that good. He's proving it every Sunday. Average player. In four years he can't understand he can't over run plays and whiff on critical tackles? He's not a MLB IMO and I"m tired of Raider Fan pumping this guy up like some sort of Pro Bowl player. There.

[Raider Nation]

The lack of depth in the secondary and the lack of any semblance of a playmaker at FS are the primary reasons this team struggles on 3rd down, IMO. If Justin Miller can contribute at all and perhaps go into the offseason conditioning program that would be a start. The FS situation is really puzzling to me. I'm ready to cut bait on Huff and trade him for a 3rd or 4th round pick at this point. There's a lack of quality FS play in general in the NFL right now, it wouldn't be that hard to find a team who sees the dreaded "upside" in Huff.

[Langlier]

Our biggest problem on D is one thing.

Consistancy

There are times when we have studly run D
There are times we have great coverage
There are times we have great pass rush

unfortunately we never seem to pull all 3 together.

What we don't have:
1. Consistent pass rusher (looking at you Derrick Burgess)
2. LB that plays downhill - closest is sammy dub but he hits blocks more then backs
3. Consistant INT threat. We've never had it at S (other then the brief RWood period). Hall/PBuch could nab occasional ints but gave up to much to get them.
4. Consistancy from the DT position.

The ONLY constant on our team is Nnamdi and outside of that... medicrity

[hawaiianboy]

I guess I'm one of the few if not the only that believes Coach Ryan has done a good job with what he has for the most part this year... With the exceptions of the Denver and Atlanta games, I think his game plans in itself have been pretty solid.... Even the game plan we used against the Saints was good despite the outcome IMO... There are usually a couple of positional and conditioning breakdowns a game that hurt us... Rob Ryan is not the problem here IMO... The offense is giving us nothing as far as time of possession and converting field position and turnovers, and the lack of depth we've gone through the season with along the D-line is just silly... The D has taken heat for giving up 4th quarter leads in the Bolt and Bills game, justifiably so to an extent, but if you look at the field position they gave the offense, both those games should have been early blowouts with an offense that could close with TD's instead of field goals...

With just an average offense on its side, this defense would be middle of the road, with a healthy Derrick Burgess and depth on the D-line not comprised of mostly Fred freaking Wakefield, much better than that IMO...

Ryan has been given a little more leeway as far as moving guys around and using options other than the D-line to get pressure over this past month, but he's still basically operating out of the Al "we've got Pickell, Townsend, Long and Jones on the D-line" playbook... Ryan goes elsewhere with total freedom, and I think Raider fans end up talking about what coulda, woulda, shoulda been here... Under the current circumstances, I don't think you'd see more production than Ryan's giving us even with a "hot" name here...


Despite all the drama, the injuries and the losing, the defense is still playing with full bore energy and effort... That is a reflection on the coach...

The FS spot has killed us... DeAngelo Hall was killing us... The D-line wearing down has killed us... Our hit to miss factor on the first round picks we've spent on defense is horrible...

Ryan is the fall guy du jour around here for sure, but I'd like to see Al let him install that Pats 52/34 again with the right goddamn personnel this time around...

[BigPoppaPump]

The problem is pretty simple imo, we lack identity.

If you look at all the good to great D's in the history of the NFL, they have an identity. The Bears brought the sink and everything and hurt you. The Ravens had two chubs in the middle that freed up the LBers. NE has a flexibility in thier personel that allows them to dsiguise their D. Pitt brings the pain with speedy LBers.


We have no clue who we are. That is partially due to Al being a fucknut and tying Ryan's hands up so he cannot call a real game and it is also due to the fact we have very little talent on the field.

If I had my druthers and was the DC at the start of the year, I would have been a guy who gambled and brought heat on almost every play. We have decent speed in our LBers and Burgess can play. We also had a secondary that appeared on paper to match up perfect with that type of gameplan.

But as it stands, we are lost. We are approaching it the wrong way imo. We have the scheme first and are trying to force guys to be part of it. Might work if we had good guys. We don't. Therefore we need to find a scheme that fits our personel.


The problem is not Ryan. The problem is Al.

[Langlier]

The problem is pretty simple imo, we lack identity.

If you look at all the good to great D's in the history of the NFL, they have an identity. The Bears brought the sink and everything and hurt you. The Ravens had two chubs in the middle that freed up the LBers. NE has a flexibility in thier personel that allows them to dsiguise their D. Pitt brings the pain with speedy LBers.


We have no clue who we are. That is partially due to Al being a fucknut and tying Ryan's hands up so he cannot call a real game and it is also due to the fact we have very little talent on the field.

If I had my druthers and was the DC at the start of the year, I would have been a guy who gambled and brought heat on almost every play. We have decent speed in our LBers and Burgess can play. We also had a secondary that appeared on paper to match up perfect with that type of gameplan.

But as it stands, we are lost. We are approaching it the wrong way imo. We have the scheme first and are trying to force guys to be part of it. Might work if we had good guys. We don't. Therefore we need to find a scheme that fits our personel.


The problem is not Ryan. The problem is Al.

If Ryan isn't implementing his own scheme then as defensive coordinator he has failed. If something worked Al would leave it alone. Its crap like trying to fit 4-3 players into a 3-4 that Al stepped in to fix.

I don't care if Al's preferred schemes aren't nfl competitive anymore... Ryan is the one who calls things out on Sundays. If it's not working he needs to change it. Regardless of what Al thinks.

[Raider Nation]

I wouldn't say Ryan has done a "good" job, as HB suggests, but he isn't the reason this team is 2-7 either. My frustration with Ryan is the philosophy he uses. He's of the old school mindset that player for player our defense should be winning matchups. That works when you've got Asomugha and Howard, but there's 9 other guys out there that aren't winning their matchups consistently enough. The result is a bend but don't break defense that continually stays on the field, especially in the 2nd half. Certainly the offense and the lack of T.O.P on offense is a contributing factor.

I'm endlessly frustrated with Ryan for not putting his players in the best position to make plays. The "line up and play" philosophy works when you have the Saints offense or a Denver offense supporting your defense. It doesn't work when you're only getting 25 minutes of possession time a game. When that's the case you have to change up the scheme and use more deception and disguise. We do none of that.

[hawaiianboy]

When that's the case you have to change up the scheme and use more deception and disguise. We do none of that.


Not being able to change out of Al's preferred scheme has been a fluid problem for a long time now... I don't know if Ryan could get out from under thumb anymore than John Fox could... It's going to be a problem with whoever has the job until Al stops making it a problem...



Its crap like trying to fit 4-3 players into a 3-4 that Al stepped in to fix.

I don't know how people keep putting that on Ryan... Al stepped in to clean a problem he caused when he decided to sign Warren Sapp at the end of March/beginning of April... Ryan had brought over 34 fits Ted Washington and Bobby Hamilton over with him from the Pats... We already had Tyler Brayton, Parella and Tommy Kelly to play that other DE spot... Sapp became available late and Al couldn't resist the big name even if it was a bad fit and he wasn't needed... We switched back to the 43 strictly to accomodate Sapp's abilities... If we throw that money Sapp got at Steve Foley or Clark Haggans to play rush LB, and we have no problem...

And let's not forget that Brayton was switched from 34 DE, where he looked pretty good, to LB only because Travian Smith, Grant and Sam Williams all got hurt...

[007]

Sad times indeed when being ranked 30th against the run and pass, and among the highest in PPG against is not "Ryan's fault" and you're ok with his gameplans.

Add to that our continued woes on 3rd down, our lack of pass rush and our lack of fundamental tackling skills, and you have yourself a disgusting defense.

He's had 5 FUCKING years and we keep getting worse and worse.

Time to clean house. Starting with Davis, Cable and Ryan.

[Madturk]

I'd have to agree, ultimately it falls on Al but if Ryan doesn't have the balls to stand up to Al and implement his own system, he should just bow out gracefully. Obviously Kiff saw this and tried to implement change and we all saw what happened..

5 years to improve this defense and he's failed miserably as 007 points out. I can count on my one hand how many games he's actually implemented a decent game plan. Last year's game against Indy was probably our best defensive effort since Ryan has been here. Unfortunately those efforts are few and far between.

Like alluded to, he doesn't put his players in the best position to win. He's also had the added luxury of some continuity on the defensive side of the ball with some of our veteran players, e. g. Aso, Howard, Morrison, Kelly, Burgess, Terd, Huff.

Ultimately, stop drafting fucking db's and track stars every draft. This defense could have Haloti Ngata anchoring the line and Justin Tuck at DE. :shakehead:

[london raider 2]

HB - as a mere Brit whos no expert, can you tell me what Ryan has done over
last 5 years to warrant being a decent D coach & kept here? Serious question.

Also do you think if he was on another team would he be good?

[Rupert]

The problem is pretty simple imo, we lack identity.
... buncha stuff in the middle ...
The problem is Al.

Those two statements alone really point to the Raiders' problem.

Al Davis has never liked having real personalities on his team. Especially not today's athlete personalities.

It's why we go for the conservative "talent" players. Michael Huff? Nice guy, doesn't say much, lots of measureables.

Nnamdi has all the skill in the world, but he's a team guy.

We bring in personalities that are past their prime, like Romo and Sapp.

But Al has seemed to shy away from prime-time guys with personality. Notice we don't even talk to the front-line FA's, don't even pass a note to their agents in home room. We always go after the wallflower no-one else is chasing who might or might not put out. WTF?!?!

Is it fallout from having Marcus around? A guy who grabbed more press than Al. Look at Bo or Timmy. Bo didn't like to talk to the press, and Timmy would vent his frustration, but not at Al.

And then you get guys with some personality, but not top-tier talent, like Morrison. He can't strut around like he's hot shit in the league because he isn't. He might be hot shit here, but that isn't saying much now is it?

We lack identity and personality because we don't want to have one or the other. If people don't know what you are they can't prepare for you right? For some reason I always thought the program here was, we're going to take what we want because we're just that good. It's time to get back to putting together a team like that.

[hawaiianboy]

HB - as a mere Brit whos no expert, can you tell me what Ryan has done over
last 5 years to warrant being a decent D coach & kept here? Serious question.

Look, I'm not saying the man has been Monte Kiffin out there, just that he's done about as well as he could under the Al guideline to defense and with the talent at hand... Raider fans have had the exact same complaints about the defense for what, 10 years now? 15 years?... I used to believe changing the DC would make a difference, but not anymore... Until we evolve the line em up and play style of defense Al obviously prefers, the exact same complaints will eventually arise under the new guy unless we somehow go 7-8 deep up front with guys capable of playing that style...

If Ryan, a guy by all accounts Al really respects and likes, hasn't been green lighted to do his own thing, what makes anyone believe that Dave McGinnis, Donnie Henderson, Pepper Johnson or whoever we fans believe can actually be lured to this coaching grave yard, will get the chance Ryan hasn't?... The difference between Ryan and previous guys that have held the gig is the players still play hard for him and haven't mailed it in even under the test your faith conditions of Shell's year and this year... That's exactly why it wouldn't bother me at all if he gets another year or two, especially if Al is serious about upgrading the talent along the line...




Also do you think if he was on another team would he be good?

No doubt in my mind... I think if you switched the Ryan twins around, they'd have similar results for their new team... Rob came here this past summer to help with the defense... I know someone on staff who says he presented one of the most innovative, aggressive scheme set ups he's seen... This is not some scrub off the street starstruck by an NFL guy, this is a guy that played under Badass Bud Carson on the '91 Eagles defense that was arguably the most best defense the league has ever seen... I think you'd see that side of Ryan if had had autonomy to do what he wanted... Right now, his mandate is to play a scheme that was successful for us in the past, against offenses that have evolved over time...


JMO though.... I realize it's not a popular one...

[RaiderIVlife]

I personally think our secondary is pretty talented with Aso, Routt, Gibril Wilson, Chris Johnson, Rashad Baker and yes, even Michael Huff. There are enough solid, athletic pcs to form a fine unit - with depth, but the problem is DL. I think that is very easy to see, but again, that's one man's opinion.

So should we draft DL in round#1? Or throw our FA money at proven players?

Should we draft Ray Malagua round#1? and DL in round #3?

My personal preference is to throw some FA money at DL and chase some 2nd day DL's beyond that.

I'm leaning towards WR or OT with our 1st round selection. At least today.

[Madturk]

My personal preference is to throw some FA money at DL and chase some 2nd day DL's beyond that.

I'm leaning towards WR or OT with our 1st round selection. At least today.

I think last off season was the time to go FA DT with Kris Jenkins, Shaun Rogers, Corey Williams. We missed the boat I'm afraid. This year's crop is weak and Al Haynesworth isn't coming here. DT doesn't seem to be a priority, hence Taj Hawthorne as the last DT we've drafted.:rolleyes:

[SoCalRaider]

If something worked Al would leave it alone.


I find that hard to believe. Wasn't it Al who took the spread offense that shattered every record in Raider history and decided to lead pipe it because "he thought" it was exposed in the Super Bowl? Please. Al's lost touch with reality. He has no concept, no feel, and no clue for whether something is working. If he did... his bitch ass would have realized long ago that single handedly running an organization into the ground doesn't work and never will.

The only thing more pathetic than Defensive Coordinator Al, is Head Coach Al. The only thing more pathetic than Head Coach Al is GM Al... and the only thing more pathetic than GM Al, is managing general fucktard Al. How the hell does somebody with any sense of reality not realize this shit doesn't work?

[SoCalRaider]

HB - as a mere Brit whos no expert, can you tell me what Ryan has done over
last 5 years to warrant being a decent D coach & kept here? Serious question.

Also do you think if he was on another team would he be good?

Ryan would best serve this team as a HC... That said... Watching the first few games of the season before the wheels fell off... it was pretty evident that Ryan had built a D that could dominate for long stretches of time....

[007]

You saw a dominating defence in the first few games? Really?

We played Denver and gave up 400+ (300 passing and 100+ rushing) as well as 40+ points.

We then played KC, which seems like more of an anomaly at this point than a true indicator. Ryan's 'defense' was given 350 yards rushing and only had to play for 25 minutes in that game. Not really the norm around these parts.

Then we played Buffalo...And we all know what happened in Buffalo.

This defense cant stop the run, struggles against the pass, and gives up late.

That doesnt equate to domination in anyone's book. The sooner Rob Ryan fucks off, the better off we'll be.

[Rupert]

The sooner Rob Ryan fucks off, the better off we'll be.

I disagree with this statement. Here's why:

(I'm only offering opinions I've read here, not one's I'm supporting myself)

We've got nothing at DE.

We've got average (or worse) DT's.

Morrison wouldn't be worth much on another team and he's waaaay overrated.

Nnamdi and Wilson are the only guys we have in the secondary that are worth a shit.

Howard is our only decent LB and he's playing poorly this season.

So I ask you, with all this "crap" we've got playing D for us, how is Ryan supposed to make something good out of it?

We can't have it both ways. Don't point to the results as being Ryan's fault if we're going to say the players are shit too.

I think Ryan's decent. I think the players are decent. I see some very typical things from a group of guys that fall short of being complete:
* There are occassional errors - every team has them so I discount this as an issue.
* There are missed tackles - this happens on other teams too so this is also discounted.
* There are critical breakdown in critical situations - this doesn't happen to the best teams as often as it happens to us. Sometimes it's the defensive call, sometimes it's the play execution. This is where talent on the field an in the coaching box fall short. Is it the player trying to do something he's incapable of making the call worthless or is it Ryan trying to compensate for a lack of talent on the field? I think it's some of both. So until we get a solid defense across the board, I'm not going to fault Ryan too much.

I think we're better now personnel-wise than we were to start the season. We can play a little more aggressively than we did with Hall, but we're going to have to accept some aggressive breakdowns. Those I can tolerate. I wish we'd have played Hall like we are playing Johnson instead of playing Hall off so much. But we didn't have Baker playing over the top of Hall either so...

[007]

I wish I had a chance to perform for five years at a below mediocre level, and still get to keep my job, with the strong chance at a promotion...

Any other team and this guy would have been shitcanned after the first season we spent ranked 30th in total defence.

What a joke of a franchise we've become. Coaches getting scholarships because they do as they are told at the expense of putting quality on the field.

1 good quarter out of 4 doesnt make you a quality DC in my book.

[Langlier]

I find that hard to believe. Wasn't it Al who took the spread offense that shattered every record in Raider history and decided to lead pipe it because "he thought" it was exposed in the Super Bowl? Please. Al's lost touch with reality. He has no concept, no feel, and no clue for whether something is working. If he did... his bitch ass would have realized long ago that single handedly running an organization into the ground doesn't work and never will.

The only thing more pathetic than Defensive Coordinator Al, is Head Coach Al. The only thing more pathetic than Head Coach Al is GM Al... and the only thing more pathetic than GM Al, is managing general fucktard Al. How the hell does somebody with any sense of reality not realize this shit doesn't work?

Callahan/Trestman decided to lead pipe that the next year. Al had nothing to do with it

[jatfly]

I hope the same bus that runs over Javon backs of him and hits Ryan!!!

[Swords]

Watching the Jets last night I kept thinking..... "we beat those guys?"

How'd we do it?
Pass rush and hitting the QB.

The first 3 quarters of that game Favre was beat up bad. He was hit time and time again. The 4th quarter we let up and the Jets came back.

[Raider Nation]

Callahan/Trestman decided to lead pipe that the next year. Al had nothing to do with it

I find that very hard to believe.

[hawaiianboy]

I wish I had a chance to perform for five years at a below mediocre level, and still get to keep my job,


Like Natty, you'll get your shot at that once you get married...


Any of you Ryan Sucks guys have any actual suggestions as to what top level guy will actually be willing to come here to do the job that you feel Ryan hasn't been able to?

[NIPS]

If our offense would play with half the nut sack our defense does we wouldnt be sitting at 2-7

The only reason to watch this team is the defense

I was proud of the way those guys played on sunday

I haven't seen that much intensity from the offense since 2002

Nothing wrong with Ryans approach... These players on defense can play

[RaiderIVlife]

What do most of our opponents say about our 'D' following the game?

I've seen plenty of, "they are athletic", "they are fast", "they are talented" type comments.

I don't think our secondary sucks - at all. I would be A-OK with this group heading into 2009. I'm also OK with our LB'er corps. Ricky Brown has stepped it up, Sam Williams seems to perform better when starting and you can always sign a TBD veteran.

Defense Line boyz, that is where we need an infusion of talent. I'd suggest a combo of FA dollars & draft picks.

[jatfly]

Like Natty, you'll get your shot at that once you get married...


Any of you Ryan Sucks guys have any actual suggestions as to what top level guy will actually be willing to come here to do the job that you feel Ryan hasn't been able to?

I don't know someone that would experiment with putting guys like Brayton at LB, and playing some 3-4 and maybe with the crap he has game planning better.......I AM NOT SORRY for his big dumb ass anymore......he hasn't game planned and impressed me in years. Don't try to tell us how well his guys did against Car.....what about all the other games.....over the last 3 years.....WTF has he done where is his championship belt!!!! F' That mankind looking MF'er!

[Swords]

Any of you Ryan Sucks guys have any actual suggestions as to what top level guy will actually be willing to come here to do the job that you feel Ryan hasn't been able to?


He's not top level but how about Dave McGinnis

[007]

These are guys off the top of my head:

Dom Capers and Pepper Johnson in New England would be a dream come true.

Guys like Chuck Pagano and Donnie Henderson could be looking to move up...

Mike Waufle runs the Giants DL and is stuck behind Spagnuolo the wunderkid.

Ed Orgeron, Kurt Schottenheimer and Raheem Morris could be out there.

Everybody's favorite chump, Ted Cottrell.

Who knows who would or wouldnt take the job, especially if we actually bring in a GM or Davis steps down, as rumored...

I'd take ANYONE I named over Ryan.

[CrossBones]

I don't see how anybody can give Ryan a pass.

He's had six years and has been unable to figure out how to adjust his schemes to his personnel. Whatever. I think he sticks. Time for a change.

[Swords]

Jim Johnson (http://forums.kffl.com/showthread.php?t=241076)


Those spoiled little bitches wanna can Jim Johnson....

Ha, yeah I know, Eagle fans, but still... LMAO

[Jokerman]

Like Natty, you'll get your shot at that once you get married...


Any of you Ryan Sucks guys have any actual suggestions as to what top level guy will actually be willing to come here to do the job that you feel Ryan hasn't been able to?

There's the argument I was both waiting for and afraid of. Now I'm truly depressed.

My concern about Ryan is that I don't know if he actually believes what he says publically about the quality of player he has - they are all "the best." If he does, is he right, or is he wrong but now Al believes it? If he is right, then the failure of the defense is on his shoulders for poor scheme. If he is wrong but has Al believing him, then the failure of the defense still falls on his shoulders to some extent for not honestly evaluating the talent for the scheme he is forced to run.

Clealy the offense needs to help out the D with improved TOP, but we still lost games early in the year when we did win the TOP battle. But even in the Atlanta game, the D wasn't stopping the other team in the first quarter.

Maybe Ryan is a good or even great DC. Who knows under the current situation. Problem is, it isn't working on the level we need it to work. And I just don't think it helps the organization to think it will constantly be better next year with this guy. On the other hand, HB's point is spot on. Who else? Can Al catch lightning in a bottle with some relative unknown? I almost hate calling for that, but doesn't that come with at least some hope? Given the last 5+ years, the hope that the future won't resemble this immediate past is about all us Raider fans have left. I just don't know that I can hope Ryan will put it all together next year.

[Raiders757]

The 3-4? :pound:

Fisrt: We don't even have the right players to pull it off. Our boys can't even pressure a QB with four down lineman during a linebacker blitz. We could send all 11 players, and still not get pressure.

Second: Al "the Hitler of football" Davis is a fan of the 4-3, and what he says goes. Until he drops dead of the cocain overdose I'm about to give him in his sleep, you can keep dreaming of a 3-4 defense. :nono:

Third: As with all goood things, they come to an end. By the time our Raiders go to a real 3-4, with the right players to pull it off, it'll be yesterdays news, and NFL offenses will be rolling right over it.

[NIPS]

This team needs a true MLB

Gap responsibility, Morrison cannot shed blocks, he needs to be moved outside

And we need to get some of that Somoan shit already

Bam!
http://www.nfldraftdog.com/images/Rey%20Maualuga.jpg

I'm really hoping Henderson proves to be a servicable LT these last 7 games

Got damnit - It's been long over due this team gets a fuckin break already

[hawaiianboy]

Second: Al "the Hitler of football" Davis is a fan of the 4-3, and what he says goes. Until he drops dead of the cocain overdose I'm about to give him in his sleep, you can keep dreaming of a 3-4 defense. :nono:

You may want to actually check what the "Hitler of football" defense of choice was in all 3 Super Bowl winning years...

[NIPS]

I would not be opposed to a 3-4

Drafting Rey Maualuga and having a LB core of

Thomas Howard
Rey Maualuga
Kirk Morrison
Ricky Brown

Would not suck

I'd like to see what Terdell Sands could do as a NT in a 3-4

Gap reponse.. Let the LB's make the plays

Like to see a 70/30 3-4 to 4-3 ratio

[Madturk]

Can't see the Terd as a guy that can be counted on regularly as the pivot man in a 3-4. Maybe in a rotational situational if we can find another big two gapperto rotate him with. I'm actually warming up to the idea of a 3-4 alignment based on where I see our players going.

I wouldn't be adverse to drafting Rey Maluaga (Sp) with the caveat that we address the NT situation this offseason.

[NIPS]

Can't see the Terd as a guy that can be counted on regularly as the pivot man in a 3-4. Maybe in a rotational situational if we can find another big two gapperto rotate him with. I'm actually warming up to the idea of a 3-4 alignment based on where I see our players going.

I wouldn't be adverse to drafting Rey Maluaga (Sp) with the caveat that we address the NT situation this offseason.

Rey would be a huge pick, would allow us to hybrid our defense

This will be the 1st draft I will be all over trading down a few slots and picking up an extra 2nd

[RaiderIVlife]

Sam Williams might not be a bad depth guy as an OLB in the 3/4 either.

[CrossBones]

Get me some 'Fat Albert type' to occupied two guys in the middle.

Until then this talk of 34 is folly.

[NIPS]

Get me some 'Fat Albert type' to occupied two guys in the middle.

Until then this talk of 34 is folly.

Bro, you ever try and take off Sands helmet?... It's like uncorking a bottle of fuckin wine

[Raiders757]

You may want to actually check what the "Hitler of football" defense of choice was in all 3 Super Bowl winning years...

I'll have to go back and watch my DVDs of the games, as I can't remember what defense was played. I was a kid for the first one, ten years old the second time, and a teen the thrid time. That's a lot of beer to remeber through.

Still, it matters not now. It's pretty clear the old guy doesn't like the 3-4, or the players would have been put in place long ago.

Also, I retract my Hitler reference, as I don't want to offend any of the Shirleys that may stop in for a chat. :cool:

[hawaiianboy]

Get me some 'Fat Albert type' to occupied two guys in the middle.

Until then this talk of 34 is folly.


The one thing Sands does very well is pushing the guy in front of him back when you line him head up.... I'd be fine with him in rotation there...


My whole point with this is we can keeping on hoping that Al will change his approach of having his front 4 win their matchups in a 4 man front, and keep on with our Holy Grail quest of getting a couple of DE's in the draft that can get to the passer as well as hoping someone we pick up will turn into Haynesworth or Henderson inside, or we can actually try something different...

To me it's much easier to find a Jay Ratliff or Jason Ferguson in the draft than a Kevin Williams, much easier to find a tweener type to play rush LB than it is to find a true DE... We stay static and we're still going into another season hunting for pass rushing DE's and a couple of big DT's... For all the complaining that we don't blitz, the 34 defense demands that you do... With how effective Thomas Howard has been the few times we do send him, I would love to see him turned lose ala Joey Porter...

I doubt we can sign a Haynesworth, Suggs or Peppers to fill out the 43, but I could see us signing a Tank Johnson to play nose tackle and taking a shot on Shawn Merriman when the Bolts cut bait on him...

You ask me, we're just as close to being able to field a good 34 team as we are the 43, maybe even closer... Personally, I'm getting tired of waiting for the kind of DE's we need to make Al's defense work...

[BigTron]

Amen. Al's scheme is rubbish without the right DL. Look at the NYG. Osi and Strahan get replaced by Tuck and Kiwanuka. Any of those guys would be a star here. Gotta have a stacked DL to get pressure in this scheme. Unless you plan on blitzing alot.

[NIPS]

You ask me, we're just as close to being able to field a good 34 team as we are the 43, maybe even closer... Personally, I'm getting tired of waiting for the kind of DE's we need to make Al's defense work...


Roger that...

I just dont see any 4/3 DE worth a 1st or 2nd in this draft to me. Theres plenty of Gaines Adams out there... okay, but not all that great...

Theres some guys to be had in the 4th rd and up that could fill in nicely in a 3/4 DE as a run stopper in this draft, guys like Antwain Robinson from Arkansas.. tremendous vs the run, Orion Martin, Mitch King from Iowa, and even Kyle Moore from USC

[McFaddenBush]

I wonder how well we will do without DeAngelo

[RaiderIVlife]

I have to admit, the thought of having a 'beast' in the form of Ray Malagua at MLB and letting Thomas Howard maximize his athletic talent by having him chase the QB at least 25% of the time is very appealing.

Let Ricky Brown, Sam Williams & TBD rotate at the other OLB spot, move Kirk Morrison next to Malagua at the other ILB spot, we could really have something.

I agree with others that think Jay Richardson, Tommy Kelly and Turdell Sands fit well into as wave players in the 3/4 mix, but of course we'll need at least 3 other solid 'bodies' along the DL to compliment these 3.

**Burgess is done' in Oakland and I don't know that we'll retain Gerrard Warren who would probably struggle at NT or End in the 3/4**

[hawaiianboy]

Let Ricky Brown, Sam Williams & TBD rotate at the other OLB spot, move Kirk Morrison next to Malagua at the other ILB spot, we could really have something.


I like Trevor Scott at the other outside spot... He gives you some size there and IIRC, has played OLB in high school so the move wouldn't be totally foreign to him... I'd still try and get another guy to rotate in though...


I'm hoping Merriman pops free as rumored since they gave Jyles Tucker starters money and have Shaun Phillips opposite... Either way, whether we play a 3 or 4 man front, I think Igor Olshansky and Betrand Berry are going to be a couple of second tier FA's we'll look hard at...

Hey if others can dream about landing the big whale Haynesworth:

DE: Kelly/Richardson
NT: Tank Johnson/Sands
DE: Igor Olshansky
OLB: Howard/Scott
ILB: Morrison
ILB: Rey Maulauga
OLB: Merriman

[NIPS]

I think Edwards has the ability to be a hybrid LB/DE

Sands is fat enough and strong enough to hold his own at NT

Lets not forget Warren

I'm not worried about speed DE rushers in a 3-4, just hold the line and get 2 strong ends to force the run outside..

Warren could fit very well in that position

Set Edwards as the 4th LB, whole wide world is open, could shift the line left and bring Edwards to end and go from a 3/4 look to a 4/3 look real quick

I dont give a damn who gets the sacks, a sack is a sack

LB's like Rey and a safety and blitzing guys like speedy Howard/Edwards does not suck

I dont know about you guys, but I have been very pleased with the play of Kalimba

[007]

Edwards stood up in S.Car, I believe...

He could play hybrid here.

[Rupert]

You may want to actually check what the "Hitler of football" defense of choice was in all 3 Super Bowl winning years...

Who's got the video? Wasn't the Stork actually playing as a down DE then and not the hybrid DE/OLB of the 3-4 in 83?

We are talking 25 years and fading memory, but...

[Limee]

I am impressed by how late HB left it in his opening post before mentioning the 3-4. :D I am less impressed tha

It seems to me we should be looking to add 3 more bodies to the line irrespective of 3-4 or 4-3 scheme. It also looks to me like Burgess is in the way out. Is it easier to find 3-4 lineman that we need than 4-3 lineman. Will the change of scheme have a positive or negative affect on our linebackers.

I really can't see a change being made and I think we will still be clinging to the hope that we can find someone who can dominate at end or tackle and help our defense to function the way it should.

[brick]

The Raiders have been miss cast in terms of tallent and scheme up front since Ryan came in.

Ryan was brought abord to bring the NE hybrid 4-3/3-4 to Oakland. Things were shaping up quite nicely until a last minute addition of Warren Sapp. Throw in a bunch of injuries to the LB core that preseason and the result was horrific.

The 3-4 and any pretense of the hybrid was thrown out the window, but the tallent aquisition never switched gears. To this day the Raiders have personnel group that is part 3-4 and part 4-3.

Kelly is not a true under tackle, his skill set is better suited to a 3-4 end.

Warren is an under tackle, but he is being asked to 2 gap.

Sands cannot seem to 2 gap, but when asked to simply push his guy back 2-3 yards he can be a force.

Richardson is a base end, being asked to supply a pass rush, in a 3-4 he could focus on what he does well.

Morrison cannot maintain gap responsibility, but as a WMLB in a 3-4 he would be free to flow to the play.

Right there are 5 key players in the raiders front 7, who's talents and limitations are not fitting what the team is trying to do.

Until this team gets talent aquisition and scheme on the same page, the results are going to be the same. No matter who is DC.

[CrossBones]

The Raiders have been miss cast in terms of tallent and scheme up front since Ryan came in.

Ryan was brought abord to bring the NE hybrid 4-3/3-4 to Oakland. Things were shaping up quite nicely until a last minute addition of Warren Sapp. Throw in a bunch of injuries to the LB core that preseason and the result was horrific.

The 3-4 and any pretense of the hybrid was thrown out the window, but the tallent aquisition never switched gears. To this day the Raiders have personnel group that is part 3-4 and part 4-3.

Kelly is not a true under tackle, his skill set is better suited to a 3-4 end.

Warren is an under tackle, but he is being asked to 2 gap.

Sands cannot seem to 2 gap, but when asked to simply push his guy back 2-3 yards he can be a force.

Richardson is a base end, being asked to supply a pass rush, in a 3-4 he could focus on what he does well.

Morrison cannot maintain gap responsibility, but as a WMLB in a 3-4 he would be free to flow to the play.

Right there are 5 key players in the raiders front 7, who's talents and limitations are not fitting what the team is trying to do.

Until this team gets talent aquisition and scheme on the same page, the results are going to be the same. No matter who is DC.That's the first reasonable assessment I can understand. The rest of the knuckle heads around here talk in in Hawaiian and other languages I am not familiar with.

So what you're saying Brick is "we're fucked". :D

[Rupert]

That's the first reasonable assessment I can understand. The rest of the knuckle heads around here talk in in Hawaiian and other languages I am not familiar with.

So what you're saying Brick is "we're fucked". :D

Just because it's the first time the light switch went on, doesn't mean it's the first time you heard it. :p

[brick]

That's the first reasonable assessment I can understand. The rest of the knuckle heads around here talk in in Hawaiian and other languages I am not familiar with.

So what you're saying Brick is "we're fucked". :D

I keep trying to be more concise with my writing, I should take some leasons from you bones,

We're fucked

yep, that was much easier.

[CrossBones]

Yes brick that is kind of my style. Cut right to the meat of the matter.

Unless Al changes either the personnel or the scheme we're pretty much screwed.

[london raider 2]

Still after our high pick in the draft we'll have a brand new fast cornerback to add to the D :rolleyes

[Rupert]

Yes brick that is kind of my style. Cut right to the meat of the matter.

Unless Al changes either the personnel or the scheme we're pretty much screwed.

Come on Bones!!! All we need are about a half dozen tweaks here or there and we'll be fine. Seriously.

For those with limited math skills that adds up to just over half the number of defensive players on the field at any one time. Sounds like a LOT of changes to me. :bugeye:

[JohnQ]

Even if it were at all possible to replace half your D starters and then make a 180 degree turnaround.You still would have the same meathead running tha damn D.

[CrossBones]

Even if it were at all possible to replace half your D starters and then make a 180 degree turnaround.You still would have the same meathead running tha damn D.But it's my understanding that it's not Ryan's fault.

Ryan just keeps reciting that definition of insanity and keeps on going on.