J. Long to Dolphins...

[jatfly]

Jay Glazer reporting it's done.... 1:45pm News conference scheduled...


http://www.miamidolphins.com/newsite/flash_content.asp

[jatfly]

THE RAMS ARE ON THE CLOCK
Posted by Mike Florio on April 22, 2008, 12:59 p.m.
The St. Louis Rams are now free to negotiate with any incoming rookie. Except left tackle Jake Long. Because, according to Jay Glazer of FOXSports.com, Long has agreed to terms with the Miami Dolphins to become the No. 1 overall pick in the draft.

It’s a five-year deal, which might be one of the major concessions that the Dolphins had to make in order to hold down the total money to be paid to Long. Typically, the No. 1 overall pick signs a six-year deal.

Glazer says that Long is already in the building, for a press conference that apparently will start at 1:45 p.m. EDT.

There are many details to be discovered about this one, including whether linebacker/defensive end Vernon Gholston ever had a chance to take less than the amount that was accepted by Long. Since Long and Gholston are represented by the same firm, any efforts to leverage one player against the other likely never materialized — even though it would have been in Gholston’s best interests for a reverse bidding war to occur.

As it now stands, Gholston could slide out of the top five, and he’ll earn far less money than if he’d been the No. 1 overall pick.

For those of you who still don’t realize the extent of the conflict of interest that CAA had on this issue, think of it this way. Gholston’s agent should have been calling the Dolphins every five minutes, pimping his client and suggesting that he’d consider doing something less than Long’s deal in order to be the No. 1 overall pick. In turn, Long’s agent should have then been required to scramble in order to keep the Fins focused on his client.

But since both men are represented by the same agency, it most likely never happened. And, as we suspected, Gholston is the one who has gotten screwed.

[massraider]

At least we'll know who St. Looey is looking at.

I expect those rumors to start tomorrow, as the Rams commence negotiations with..........whom?

[RZ]

At least we'll know who St. Looey is looking at.

I expect those rumors to start tomorrow, as the Rams commence negotiations with..........whom?

I wasn't aware that the Rams could start negotiations.. it makes sense that they should be able to, but I thought there was something in the rules that said that only the 1st overall pick could negotiate contracts prior to the draft...

Could someone that actually "knows" verify this?

[jatfly]

well they can talk to whom they play on picking but I don't think he can sign with the Rams until draft day. Round one should be real fast this year.

[Jack's sore libido]

If the Rams would be so kind as to target Glenn Dorsey, then Chris Long will be ours.

OURS!!!!

[Madturk]

Or trade down with the Saints who apparently have major wood for him.

[massraider]

I wasn't aware that the Rams could start negotiations.. it makes sense that they should be able to, but I thought there was something in the rules that said that only the 1st overall pick could negotiate contracts prior to the draft...

Could someone that actually "knows" verify this?

Honestly, I can't see any reason why there'd be a rule in place, as long as Jake signs his deal.

I really don't care if they do sign someone, I just want to know WHO they talk to.

[Jack's sore libido]

Well, the Rams do need receivers now, and 10 would be a nice spot for them to grab Devin Thomas.

The Rams also need linebackers, and 10 would be a nice spot for them to grab Keith Rivers or Jerod Mayo (if they don't grab C. Long at 2, that is).

The Rams also need corners, and 10 would be a nice spot for them to grab Leodis McKelvin or Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie.

[JaxRaider]

1 Down, three to go...come on Son of Howie.

[massraider]

Well, the Rams do need receivers now, and 10 would be a nice spot for them to grab Devin Thomas.

The Rams also need linebackers, and 10 would be a nice spot for them to grab Keith Rivers or Jerod Mayo (if they don't grab C. Long at 2, that is).

The Rams also need corners, and 10 would be a nice spot for them to grab Leodis McKelvin or Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie.

Eh, I know you aren't advocating the moves, but really, wouldn't you just take Dorsey, and pair him with Carriker?

[RZ]

Honestly, I can't see any reason why there'd be a rule in place, as long as Jake signs his deal.

I really don't care if they do sign someone, I just want to know WHO they talk to.

lol... since when do most NFL Rules make common sense? :p

btw, Jake Long signed his contract (Ireland confirmed that on the Press Conf).

[Jack's sore libido]

Eh, I know you aren't advocating the moves, but really, wouldn't you just take Dorsey, and pair him with Carriker?

No idea what I'd do if I were the Rams. They have so many options.

They could:
Move Carriker to DE, take Dorsey and start Ryan.

They could:
Draft C. Long to play DE and leave Carriker inside.

They could:
Trade down and try to fill more spots, because that defense has lots of holes (DE, LB, CB, S)

[007]

Sadly, I think Chris Long makes more sense than Dorsey.

If they go Chris Long, they keep Carriker at DT, and Wroten is still young and full of potential...

Let's hope Im wrong.

[s.dot88]

i dont know if its just me, but i cant see long playing a 3-4 end in the NFL

sure he did it in college, but he seems a little undersized to play that role in the NFL

it doesnt really look like he can pack on much more weight either, which kind of makes me think Dorsey would be better for the rams, but even he doesnt really fit the scheme

i think the rams putting DMac at the top of the board is the biggest indication that they are trying to trade down, and as long as Chris Long isnt the pick, it works for me

[raiderfreak7]

I'm not positive, but I think the Rams run a 4-3.

Here's the Rams draft board according to Schefter....

1) OT Jake Long, Michigan
2) DT Glenn Dorsey, LSU
3) RB Darren McFadden, Arkansas
4) DE Chris Long, Virginia

[Raidermania12]

Sadly, I think Chris Long makes more sense than Dorsey.

If they go Chris Long, they keep Carriker at DT, and Wroten is still young and full of potential...

Let's hope Im wrong.

Carriker wasnt a world beater at DT by any stretch of the imagination. But i do believe that between the two Chris Long seems more logical. Unless they believe in the Glover/Dorsey combo as being all world.

[Madturk]

Interesting although I wonder how much of this is a smoke screen. They can really put a wrench in this draft by taking DMac. Al would be almost forced to take CLong then :D

[Raidermania12]

They can really put a wrench in this draft by taking DMac.

The prospect of a potent 1-2 RB system and less workload on Steven Jackson for a Fred Taylor/Maurice Jones-Drew type combo has to go through their minds a lil' bit. Maybe not to enough to draft Mcfadden, but i do think its still legit prospect for them.

[SoCalRaider]

I wasn't aware that the Rams could start negotiations.. it makes sense that they should be able to, but I thought there was something in the rules that said that only the 1st overall pick could negotiate contracts prior to the draft...

Could someone that actually "knows" verify this?

That's news to me as well.... This should at least keep the next couple days interesting since I'm not sure anybody has a handle on whether the Rams prefer Dorsey or Long.

[Jack's sore libido]

The prospect of a potent 1-2 RB system and less workload on Steven Jackson for a Fred Taylor/Maurice Jones-Drew type combo has to go through their minds a lil' bit. Maybe not to enough to draft Mcfadden, but i do think its still legit prospect for them.

I think drafting McFadden would be shortly followed by a trade demand from Steven Jackson.

[Raidermania12]

I think drafting McFadden would be shortly followed by a trade demand from Steven Jackson.

I dont, Unless Jackson has a carries bonus in his paycheck.

[Jack's sore libido]

Jackson has, in the past, expressed dismay at his shortage of touches.

He wants the ball in his hands as much as possible. I don't think he'd be happy sharing the load.

[massraider]

Really not even worth the typing, they aren't taking DMC.

Unless they got a ransom for Jackson, and DMC was as good as him, it'd be a mind-bending mistake.

[s.dot88]

I'm not positive, but I think the Rams run a 4-3.



really?

now that i think of it, i have no idea where i have heard or why i was thinking they run a 3-4

[Jack's sore libido]

Rams definitely run a 4-3, with Little, Carriker, Glover and, right now, Eric Moore listed as the starters.

Having Moore there is what makes me hopeful that they will take Dorsey and slide Carriker outside, and move Ryan into Carriker's slot.

[Stanny]

I'm thinking the Rams go Gholston....they play on turf, he has that "burst" and can be the hybrid 3-4/4-3 guy on that team as Haslet likes to switch between both. They can have their version of Dwight Freeney with the "speed" game coming off the edge and keep Carriker on the inside.

Howie Jr. has the motor, the pedigree and is solid....Gholston is a freak and could become a "monster." Much more of a gamble, but I have to think they invision that "blurrrrrr" coming off the edge and laying Hasslebeck, Smith and Leinart on their arses on a weekly basis.

Falcons land Dorsey, Raiders choose between Howie Jr. and DMAC.

[s.dot88]

wow, that totally changes my thoughts on the rams pick, haha

taking dorsey and moving carriker to LE makes a whole lotta sense, but if Little is a burgess-type LE, then i could see them taking chris long

i still think the dmac thing is a ploy to induce trade talks

[massraider]

Regarding the Rams:

The definitely run a 4-3. The have an aging Leonard Little in the Burgess role, the LE. Carriker in the Sapp role, the DT on the right side. Laroi Glover is an old man, as is Little, and their RE is James Hall. They started Carriker and Glover last year, which isn't the ideal setup for them.

Hall is eminently replaceable, and they have Adeyanju behind him, who might turn out decent. Hall is gone, I think.

But there is room for one starting DE now, and two after Little is gone. And they need a DT next to Carriker.

Carriker was a DE in college, and has a base end's build, IMO. Not a classic DT build at all.

So the thinking for the options:

C. Long: This is easy. He plays RE next to Carriker. Maybe more of a base end type than Little, and the Rams ARE a turf team, so they may favor a speed guy.

Dorsey: The thinking is you put him at RDT, and move Carriker to DE. The assumption is that Carriker should wind up there anyway. I think this is true, but I am not so sure C. Long and Carriker wouldn't make a stud pair of DE's.

Gholston: The only reason I can imagine taking this guy over Son of Howie is potential, and the fact that the Rams may value pure speed on the carpet.


It depends on Carriker. If they wanna keep him at DT, taking Dorsey seems unlikely to me.


Gholston is what we should be rooting for. Then we wind up with Dorsey, Long, or DMC.

[Jack's sore libido]

Actually, Carriker played nose tackle last year, not Sapp's undertackle position.

And they did re-sign Hall to a two-year deal last month.

[CrossBones]

If the Raiders end up with a choice between Chris Long and McFadden and still they go McFadden I may go "Crow" on you guys. :) Still that is what Al will probably do.

[007]

^What he said^

I'd almost rather have Dorsey/Long off the board so we don't look silly passing on them...

I'll be more than happy with McFadden/Gholston, but not at the expense of drafting Chris Long...Thats for sure.

[NIPS]

Rams are gonna take Dorsey, you guys might as well pencil him in at #2

At #3, the Atlanta Falcons select Chris Long

They got John Abraham at RDE and Jamal Anderson at LDE who has not produced very well

Chris Long and Abraham will make a helluva passing duo for the Falcons, they're gonna get their QB in rd 2 .. bank it

I just dont see Chris Long being that productive asa RDE in the NFL, he's better off at LDE, and we have Burgess

It makes to much sense for the Falcons to select Chris Long, he'd be a better fit there than he would in Oakland

Falcons have tons of picks, and with Abraham only 29 and a young stud DE in Long opposite him and Jonathan Babineaux at DT who's 26. With Grady Jackson gone.. it makes even more sense for them to select Chris Long

Welcome to O- Town Mr McFadden

[BigTron]

Listen to your Michigan fans. I told you fellas this was the pick months ago! Me and Bill text each other soemtimes too.

[Jack's sore libido]

Jamal Anderson at LDE who has not produced very well


Dude, Jamaal Anderson was a freakin' rookie last year who came out early.

I doubt the Falcons are going to give up on a top-10 pick after one year.

[Madturk]

Dude, Jamaal Anderson was a freakin' rookie last year who came out early.

I doubt the Falcons are going to give up on a top-10 pick after one year.


No doubt but Abraham hasn't exactly been an iron man either. I wonder if there are any teams willing to trade up for CLong?

[NIPS]

Dude, Jamaal Anderson was a freakin' rookie last year who came out early.

I doubt the Falcons are going to give up on a top-10 pick after one year.


Awful pick by the Falcons last year and I even said so then

Abraham got alot of pressure and Anderson did not capitilize

He's got the heat from both coaches and fans

Not his fault really

He should'nt have been drafted that high anyways

To play LDE and get a fat donut on sacks tells alot..

Falcons best bet is to trade him to the Chiefs for a 3rd and eat their blunder pick

[Byron2112]

I do believe Long and Dorsey go #2,#3 and hope to God Al picks McFadden, I'll be happy.

Russ and Mcdaddy.... can't complain about that days work.

[Raidermania12]

At #3, the Atlanta Falcons select Chris Long
In no reality do i see this happening on a team with no QB, no DT's. Long is a great player, but thats really bad drafting for atlanta to go that route. Like Jack said too much money is being spent on Anderson to try and bump him out just yet. Maybe next draft if he falls flat again this year.

Long doesnt get picked by the rams, he slips to us, and the ball is in our court at that point. I'm fairly disappointed if we pass on him.

[NIPS]

In no reality do i see this happening on a team with no QB, no DT's. Long is a great player, but thats really bad drafting for atlanta to go that route. Like Jack said too much money is being spent on Anderson to try and bump him out just yet. Maybe next draft if he falls flat again this year.

Long doesnt get picked by the rams, he slips to us, and the ball is in our court at that point. I'm fairly disappointed if we pass on him.

Consider they have the 34th & 37th pick

They could take Brohm & any number of DT's there

Dre Moore, Pat Sims etc

They wont give up on Anderson, but they should strike the iron when its hot tho', and I can tell you I've got quite a few friends that are Falcons fans and have seen at least 8 Falcon games last year

Jaamal was awful.. and he's crusing down the bust ave real fast

If Allen does in fact sign with Minnesota and gets a 3rd.. It'll be in their best interest to trade him to the Chiefs for that pick

Chris Long & John Abraham & Pat Sims is a helluva nice young DL to have the next 7 years

And to get Brohm too is a big time bonus

And the Falcons are still left with numerous picks in the 3rd...

[raider60]

If it comes down to McFadden, Long and Gholston, I think Al goes with Gholston--

[007]

The Falcons will not trade Jamaal Anderson, Ugly.

They are on the hook for nearly 10+ million left over in guarantees and would get a third round pick?

Wow.

[Jack's sore libido]

Falcons best bet is to trade him to the Chiefs for a 3rd and eat their blunder pick

After one year?

Maybe on PlayStation. Not in real life.

[Raidermania12]

Consider they have the 34th & 37th pick

They could take Brohm & any number of DT's there

Dre Moore, Pat Sims etc

They wont give up on Anderson, but they should strike the iron when its hot tho', and I can tell you I've got quite a few friends that are Falcons fans and have seen at least 8 Falcon games last year

Jaamal was awful.. and he's crusing down the bust ave real fast

If Allen does in fact sign with Minnesota and gets a 3rd.. It'll be in their best interest to trade him to the Chiefs for that pick

Chris Long & John Abraham & Pat Sims is a helluva nice young DL to have the next 7 years

And to get Brohm too is a big time bonus

And the Falcons are still left with numerous picks in the 3rd...

I get what you're saying. But he's still a second year guy making big money. I wouldnt piss him away with a new HC and scheme coming in this year. The Brohm thing may still play out, but i think on defense for them DT makes by far the most sense. Long would be a bad financial pick. You'd put more money on your DE spot to another young unproven rook. Not to mention Mario Williams had a very average(not as mediocre as jamal of course) first year before getting his game together by year two.

Jaamal was awful.. and he's crusing down the bust ave real fast
The unfortunate truth is atlanta has to wait and see, so do we with Bush, Russell, and JLH.

[007]

Good point Raidermania.

You cant think Atlanta will give up on Anderson, when he was only 21 coming out and was looked at as a big time developmental type...Not a guy like Long who can come in and play right away.

I thought Anderson was a bit of a reach last year, but I've got to figure they'll give him a year or two more before cutting him loose. Especially for a mid round pick.

[Madturk]

I wasn't aware that the Rams could start negotiations.. it makes sense that they should be able to, but I thought there was something in the rules that said that only the 1st overall pick could negotiate contracts prior to the draft...

Could someone that actually "knows" verify this?

ESPN's Chris Mortensen reported on Tuesday that the St. Louis Rams, who hold the second pick in the NFL draft, were told today by the NFL management council that they do not have permission to begin negotiations with any player now that the Dolphins have signed Long. A league spokesman said there have been internal discussions to determine whether the Rams have the right to negotiate with a player or players.

[Limee]

Seems daft to me. If the first pick has been signed I don't see why the team picking second can't start work on a deal.

[jatfly]

it's looking more and more like we may see Long drop into our hands.....I love this he was the top pick a month ago and now he is dropping? WHY????

LOL please let these idiots above us pass him by, then let the Long name be re-born in the bay area!!!!!!!!!



http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080423/SPORTS/804230374/1010/SPORT01

[RHC]

Really not even worth the typing, they aren't taking DMC.

Unless they got a ransom for Jackson, and DMC was as good as him, it'd be a mind-bending mistake.How about this:

We give them the #4 overall for Jackson and let them take the gamble on DMC. We get a bona fide bad-ass and they get a poker chip.

Did you know that in 2006 Jackson had 1528 rushing yds and 806 receiving yds???

Last year he had 1002 rushing yds while missing 1/4 of the season with an injury. He was headed for 1300+ yds.

He's only 24 yrs old.

The Rams would be fucking stupid to draft McFadden. They could pick Dorsey/Long at #3 and get a guy like Felix Jones in the 2nd round if they feel like they need to add a good RB.

[RHC]

If it comes down to McFadden, Long and Gholston, I think Al goes with Gholston--Wanna place some kind of wager on that?

[Madturk]

I really think StL will move down if they can find the right trading partner. Love to see the Jets move up to #2 and take DMac as they are supposedly enamored with him. Sorry Nips :p That pretty much ascertains that Long will there for us. Can't see Al passing on son of Howie then.

[jatfly]

Tell me that this dude isn't spot on!!!!!!!!

Things that should happen....



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/don_banks/04/22/10.moves/index.html



3. The Raiders bypass Darren McFadden: He might be the most talented and gifted player in this year's draft, but McFadden isn't the missing piece that will turn Oakland into a winner after five desultory seasons of losing. The Raiders still have many needs, but running back simply isn't one of them. Somehow, some way, they should be able to piece together a ground game from the likes of Michael Bush, Justin Fargas, Dominic Rhodes and LaMont Jordan. Adding McFadden would be counterproductive and leave some need unfilled.

The Raiders need defensive linemen and they're well-positioned in this year's draft to address that issue. At No. 4, they're 99.9 percent certain of getting one of the following: Ohio State defensive end/linebacker Vernon Gholston, LSU defensive tackle Glenn Dorsey or Virginia defensive end Chris Long. If none of those possibilities seem attractive enough, Oakland should still spurn McFadden and shop the pick to a team that needs a running back (No. 14 Bears, No. 15 Lions, No. 16 Cardinals), or a team that wants to move up and take one of those three defensive linemen. With as many holes as the Raiders have, multiple picks in the opening three rounds is the way to go.

[RHC]

Tell me that this dude isn't spot on!!!!!!!!This dude isn't spot on. He's obviously a "draft for need" junkie, and that just ain't my philosophy.

[jatfly]

This dude isn't spot on. He's obviously a "draft for need" junkie, and that just ain't my philosophy.

problem is neither is Al :shakehead:

[Jack's sore libido]

I really think StL will move down if they can find the right trading partner. Love to see the Jets move up to #2 and take DMac as they are supposedly enamored with him. Sorry Nips :p That pretty much ascertains that Long will there for us. Can't see Al passing on son of Howie then.

I think the Jets moving up for anyone would screw us and open the door for the Chiefs to move up to 3 for Chris Long.

The Jets' presence at 6 is, IMO, one of the few things that might prevent the Falcons from trading down to 5.

[Madturk]

I think the Jets moving up for anyone would screw us and open the door for the Chiefs to move up to 3 for Chris Long.

The Jets' presence at 6 is, IMO, one of the few things that might prevent the Falcons from trading down to 5.


That would majorly suck :mad: although Gholston could be an option for them as well. With an extra first rounder now, and a myriad of 3rd round picks, KC has a lot of options. That coin toss loss is looming even larger now but if Al wants son of Howie bad enough, I believe he'll make it happen but I'm not sure if that's the case.

[s.dot88]

McShay was just on ESPN and said that he has been hearing taht if it comes down to DMc and Chris Long, the raiders would likely go with DMc in a toss up

however he said on the radio that it has been general consensus that Gholston has dropped to #3 on the raiders board behind Long and DMc

personally, i dont like McShay much and i think he is just trying to cover all bases so in the end he could say he is right, but thats what he said

[Jack's sore libido]

Jerry Mac's blog today addresses why McFadden will not be the choice: Al Davis is more practical than he is portrayed, and he is not as much a sucker for measurables as he is portrayed.

[s.dot88]

while i wouldnt take DMac over Long; if Howie Jr is off the board, i hope we go with mcfadden or trade down

[Madturk]

Casserly and Charles "what his name" were saying the same thing last night on NFLN. Both agreed that it would be awfully hard for Al to pass on DMac and that he'd most likely take him over Long.

[s.dot88]

i dont put much stock into what Casserly and Davis have to say

especially considering Charles Davis has probably never even talked to Al before

that said, how sweet would it be if the rams take Gholston, Atlanta takes dorsey and all of this Raiders + DMac talk makes a team like the Jets trade up to 4 and grab him with Chris Long on the board, then the Chiefs take Matt Ryan and we land Chris Long at pick #6, while netting a mid-round pick

i know it would take a miracle, but who knows

[london raider 2]

What would the reaction be if we take Dmac over son of Howie & the Chiefs
select him?

Id be pissed off - what about you?

[SoCalRaider]

McShay was just on ESPN and said that he has been hearing taht if it comes down to DMc and Chris Long, the raiders would likely go with DMc in a toss up

however he said on the radio that it has been general consensus that Gholston has dropped to #3 on the raiders board behind Long and DMc

personally, i dont like McShay much and i think he is just trying to cover all bases so in the end he could say he is right, but thats what he said

At this point, I might as well cover all my bases too and throw in my 2 cents about the Raider War Room.

The SoCal Report
Updated 4/23/08

Al Davis - The undisputed King of the Raider War Room. Nothing has changed here. Just take the best athlete available, baby.

1. McFadden
2. Gholston
3. Long
4. Dorsey

Despite having McFadden rated higher on his board, Al is high enough on Gholston to look past his top guy and go with #2. The biggest question at this point is whether Davis has seen enough from Bush to feel comfortable about passing on McFadden.



Lane Kiffin - As of this report, our spycams have yet to catch Kiffin gain entry into the War Room. There's no question Kiffin wants to address the team's biggest weakness (stopping the run). The one thing we do know is Kiffin still subscribes to the 'take the best player that fits the system' philosophy.

1. Long
2. Dorsey
3. Ellis
4. Gholston

With the Raiders set at RB, Kiffin knows this team will go as far as the DLine allows it to. Kiffin is convinced Long is the best player in the draft and provides the most immediate impact.




Rob Ryan - An Al Davis favorite, Ryan may have more influence on this pick than most people realize. While Ryan may not be given the freedom to scheme under Defensive Coordinator Davis, Ryan's impact on the defense will come from his ability to teach. Ryan's board is completely determined by talent and upside potential.

1. Gholston
2. McFadden
3. Long
4. Dorsey

Given the appropriate coaching, Gholston has the highest upside of any player in the draft. Ryan knows it.... and so does Al.



SoCal Projection - Gholston



As a 1 time offer to all subscribers of the SoCal Report, I'll be sending out the long awaited SoCal owns Willis black and silver bandanas when I get around to it. They'll be sent by Fed Ex and expect them to arrive in time for the draft.

[Limee]

Jerry Mac's blog today addresses why McFadden will not be the choice: Al Davis is more practical than he is portrayed, and he is not as much a sucker for measurables as he is portrayed.

I keep going backwards and forwards on this one. I could quite easily see Al taking McFadden, but it also wouldn't surprise me if he didn't.

What would the reaction be if we take Dmac over son of Howie & the Chiefs
select him?

Id be pissed off - what about you?

Very pissed off. Long or Dorsey being there and us passing on them only for them to go to the Chiefs is worst case scenario in my mind.

[hawaiianboy]

Rob Ryan - An Al Davis favorite, Ryan may have more influence on this pick than most people realize. While Ryan may not be given the freedom to scheme under Defensive Coordinator Davis, Ryan's impact on the defense will come from his ability to teach. Ryan's board is completely determined by talent and upside potential.

1. Gholston
2. McFadden
3. Long
4. Dorsey

Given the appropriate coaching, Gholston has the highest upside of any player in the draft. Ryan knows it.... and so does Al.


A guy that cut his teeth around effort players like Steve McMichael, Richard Dent and Dan Hampton and around coaches like Buddy Ryan and Bill Belichick is NOT going to have a player with an inconsistent motor rated higher than the coaches dream that is Chris Long... And he certainly wouldn't have a RB rated higher than a high motor DE with flawless technique...


I imagine Ryan's board would read:

1) I'd give my left nut for Chris Long
2) I'd give my right nut for Glenn Dorsey
3) Ellis
4) Gholston

[massraider]

I cannot conceive of this team passing on Long. But I have heard nothing to suggest the Raiders are in love with Son of Howie either. I'd rather Long go to the Rams than to see us pass on him.

[Jack's sore libido]

But I have heard nothing to suggest the Raiders are in love with Son of Howie either.

Which is why I think they are. No one plays it closer to the vest than Al Davis.

[SoCalRaider]

A guy that cut his teeth around effort players like Steve McMichael, Richard Dent and Dan Hampton and around coaches like Buddy Ryan and Bill Belichick is NOT going to have a player with an inconsistent motor rated higher than the coaches dream that is Chris Long... And he certainly wouldn't have a RB rated higher than a high motor DE with flawless technique...


I imagine Ryan's board would read:

1) I'd give my left nut for Chris Long
2) I'd give my right nut for Glenn Dorsey
3) Ellis
4) Gholston


I could very easily see Ryan having McFadden lower than Long on his board... but the counter argument is getting a homerun back that can help the offense score TDs will be a huge benefit for a defense that can't stop the run and be better off playing with the lead.

But I don't really buy your inconsistent motor criticism of Gholston at all. Not only have a lot of draft people claimed that Gholston's motor and effort are as good as anybody's, a lot of these same people are claiming Gholston is right at the top of Belichick's board. I have yet to hear a criticism connecting his inconsistent play to effort. It's always been tied to poor technique and lack of awareness, which may very well be fixed with better coaching.

As great as you claim Chris Long is (and I think he is going to be great as well), I have a hard time believing that every NFL coach shares yours or my same admiration of him. If Long is really the "coaches dream" that you imply, how do you explain Parcells already passing on him, and the Rams not completely sold on him considering their need at DE????

Personally, I think a lot of NFL coaches are going use Long's "flawless technique" that he picked up from his father against him. Likewise, those same coaches are going say if they can develop that same "flawless technique" in a guy like Gholston with a greater physical skill set, Gholston may prove to be a better "prospect".

As fans, it's easy for us to want a guy like Chris Long. In my opinion, he is a fan's dream, not a coach's dream. Since he doesn't need to be coached up, fans like us don't have the concern that our coaches or system might mess him up. He's going to dominate no matter how bad our coaches are or how stupid our system is.

I highly doubt a coach is going to share that perspective. They get paid to teach and scheme, and if they have any backbone they are going to have the confidence that they can turn a Gholston into the next Merriman or Taylor. In that sense, player's with Gholston's athleticism, work ethic, and raw skill set may be more of a coach's dream than most of us think.

[massraider]

Which is why I think they are. No one plays it closer to the vest than Al Davis.

/fingers crossed/

[Jack's sore libido]

Hey Miami ... good luck with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yot9ClPvZDg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJsrTYcPbYI&feature=related

[hawaiianboy]

But I don't really buy your inconsistent motor criticism of Gholston at all.

Why exactly?...I'm not an expert, but I go by what my eyes tell me... and I don't know what your acceptable "expert" is, but his consistency has been questioned by Eric Allen, Schlereth, Kiper among others...



If Long is really the "coaches dream" that you imply, how do you explain Parcells already passing on him,


Uh, drafting for need... Parcells had him as next in line to negotiate with even though they play a 34 defense and Long would probably have to transition to playing in a two point stance...

and the Rams not completely sold on him considering their need at DE????

Based on what?... The only question they have at this point is whether to draft Long and keep Carricker inside with Ryan, or draft Dorsey and move Carricker to end... That's entirely reflective on how they feel about Carricker, not Long...

I highly doubt a coach is going to share that perspective. They get paid to teach and scheme, and if they have any backbone they are going to have the confidence that they can turn a Gholston into the next Merriman or Taylor. In that sense, player's with Gholston's athleticism, work ethic, and raw skill set may be more of a coach's dream than most of us think.



Coaches get paid first and foremost for production... What exactly is it that makes Gholston the better choice in your eyes?... I don't see a phase in the game that Gholston touches Long in... Long plays faster, he dissects plays better, he dictates to the block better (just watch how often Gholston got ridden past the pocket)... I'm just not seeing it... If we were a team that was evaluating Gholston as a 34 OLB where his straight line skills would be maximized, then maybe it's a different story... As far as playing with their hand down, it's not even close IMO...

[SoCalRaider]

Why exactly?...I'm not an expert, but I go by what my eyes tell me... and I don't know what your acceptable "expert" is, but his consistency has been questioned by Eric Allen, Schlereth, Kiper among others...


I'm not an expert either... I'm just not convinced his motor is going to be a problem... but I guess the jury is going to be out on that one because there are some people who feel that his motor is actually pretty good too.

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/de/vernongholston.html








Uh, drafting for need... Parcells had him as next in line to negotiate with even though they play a 34 defense and Long would probably have to transition to playing in a two point stance...


From what I've read, Parcells was negotiating with J.Long primarily and Gholston secondarily. Chris Long's name never even entered the equation until that after the fact report from ESPN yesterday.






Based on what?... The only question they have at this point is whether to draft Long and keep Carricker inside with Ryan, or draft Dorsey and move Carricker to end... That's entirely reflective on how they feel about Carricker, not Long...


We'll agree to disagree on that one. There's been at least one place that's made it clear that the Rams defensive coaching staff wants no part of C.Long. Plus Carricker is reportedly a classic 3-technique DT, so the fact that the Rams are still considering Dorsey may be more of reflection on what they think of Long after all... in my estimation at least.








What exactly is it that makes Gholston the better choice in your eyes?... I don't see a phase in the game that Gholston touches Long in... Long plays faster, he dissects plays better, he dictates to the block better (just watch how often Gholston got ridden past the pocket)... I'm just not seeing it... If we were a team that was evaluating Gholston as a 34 OLB where his straight line skills would be maximized, then maybe it's a different story... As far as playing with their hand down, it's not even close IMO...


Right now, I think C.Long is the best overall player in the draft. In terms of ceiling or upside potential, I don't see any reason why Gholston couldn't be better. If you're drafting in terms of highest ceiling, Gholson is a pretty sweet risk to take.

I think these 2 takes pretty much speak for themselves:


For anyone to project Chris as the best player in this draft I think would be surprising —I certainly have not heard a single evaluator ever reference him as that. He is a well-trained, highly productive football player. However, as you singled out with his 40-times that we reported, which were averaged from the hand-held results at the Combine — not the best electronic time, which was initially released by the NFL to encourage players to perform at the workout — the reality is that I do NOT think Long is an elite athlete. And if you watch the tape of some of the better competition he has faced, such as Boston College and Pittsburgh and even Texas Tech, I think you’ll see that he struggled to make his presence felt as a pass rusher. As you mentioned, his best fit in a 4-3 front would be as a strong-side, base end — which still holds a lot of value, but arguably not as much as a premium pass rusher who consistently pressures the quarterback.




One of the key elements of scouting that often goes overlooked is matching the personalities of players and coaches and understanding how much better a player could get with good coaching. The unfortunate reality is that players are often poorly coached at the pro level by coaches who are not interested in teaching and developing talent but are more interested in scheming. If Gholston finds the right situation, such as in New England, where there is a very heavy emphasis on teaching, he has the raw physical tools to be dominant. Chris Long lacks the same special tools, and although he could be a great player in the pros, he does not have the same physical skill set to be special like Gholston could be.

[s.dot88]

he [Gholston] has the raw physical tools to be dominant. Chris Long lacks the same special tools, and although he could be a great player in the pros, he does not have the same physical skill set to be special like Gholston could be

i still dont see how Gholston is so much more physically dominating than Chris Long

Gholston ran a .08 second faster 40 with equal splits to Long, which shows that Gholston has a slightly higher "top speed" with the same burst and acceleration

how often do DEs run 40 yards straight-line anyway?

sure gholston threw up ridiculous reps, but i think Long's hands and technique more than nullify Gholston's bullrush

Gholston had an inch better vertical and an inch better broad, but Long had a .10 second better 3-cone and a .19 better 20-yard shuttle

and these are just combine numbers, from what i have seen of the two in game situations, its not even close. Long looks like a man amongst boys while Gholston looks like the DE version of Jerry Porter

im not buying into this whole "Gholston is a rare freak athlete and Long isnt" fad just because VG looks like a bodybuilder

[007]

Exactly. All of Chris Long's jumps, shuttles and agility drills were on par with Gholston (At 6 pounds heavier) and he also LOOKED better when watching them compete in the exact same drills.

End of story right there.

[Jack's sore libido]

As far as Long not being as explosive off the edge against top competition ... how would we know? The Cavs played a 3-4. If Long goes wide like that, he's compromising his team's scheme.

The fact that he would be willing to play 3-4 end instead of insisting on playing a pass rush role, to me, speaks favorably of him.

[Raidermania12]

sure gholston threw up ridiculous reps, but i think Long's hands and technique more than nullify Gholston's bullrush
Yea, Long is more of a technique guy. I think speed isnt an issue since Derrick Burgess ran a 4.92 40 time himself. With that in mind pointing to these stats dont compensate for the fact that Long has just looked better as a football player on the field.

[SoCalRaider]

sure gholston threw up ridiculous reps, but i think Long's hands and technique more than nullify Gholston's bullrush


Technique will always beat athleticism, no argument there... but just as Long's awesome technique could be viewed as a negative with regard to upside potential, Gholston's complete lack of technique could be viewed as a positive in regard to upside potential when you consider he never played a down on the defensive side of the ball until his senior year in high school and only spent 2 seasons in college as a DE....

Bottom line... Long vs. Gholston is really an apples vs. oranges comparison. I just don't buy into comparing a guy who's strength is technique to a guy who's never really been taught technique.





from what i have seen of the two in game situations, its not even close. Long looks like a man amongst boys while Gholston looks like the DE version of Jerry Porter

No argument from me that Long is far ahead of Gholston right now and the best player in the draft right now. In terms of how they looked in college, I've never been one to put too much credence into gameplay because the level of competition can be very misleading. That said, if we're going to pimp Long for dominating the ACC in his senior year, Gholston should get some props for taking it to J.Long....





im not buying into this whole "Gholston is a rare freak athlete and Long isnt" fad just because VG looks like a bodybuilder

A lot of strength coaches would take issue with you there. Fast twitch players will always be at an advantage in professional sports like football, basketball, and baseball. Long may have some fast twitch composition, but there is no question that Gholston has significantly greater fast twitch composition. Part of the giveaway is physique.... but the real giveaway is what he did in his pro day. To go from a 36" to a 42" vertical in a month is textbook.

I don't know if you've ever trained with a fast-twitch athlete... but I have and it's flat out embarrassing how fast these guys can develop in just a matter of weeks. Again, with a little bit of coaching and development, a fast twitch athlete that is as raw as Gholston can very quickly and easily improve his game speed and explosiveness.

Is it a risk? Sure... but maybe I'm in the minority in thinking it is a risk well worth taking.

[Raider Nation]

Long vs. Gholston is the classic higher floor vs. higher ceiling argument. Long's the safer pick with the higher floor but Gholston is the enticing player with the higher ceiling. Do you want a guy that's virtually guaranteed of being as good as Justin Smith or the guy who could potentially be as good as Shawn Merriman or as bad as Aundray Bruce?

At this point, I've reconciled myself to be A-ok with Long, Gholston, or Run DMC at the #4 spot.

[Raidermania12]

Long is still my only choice for who we should get.


Higher floor safer pick yes, but though nobody is speaking on it, he's howie's son. Davis loves speed but imo he loves his nostalgic sentiment and bloodline connections to it more than anything(I.E. bringing in branch and iron's kids). There isnt a moment Al isnt saying "The greatness of the raiders". Another son from that era who is actually possibly within his dads realm of skills has to catch some attention. Again I think that if Long is there, we take him for many reasons. I think one that stics out for Al is:

Chiefs right below us would love to get him.

[poptart]

I'd prefer Dorsey or Long (in that order), but when all is said and done, and for better or for worse, I think Gholston will be our new toy.


my .02

[Raider Nation]

Long is still my only choice for who we should get.


Higher floor safer pick yes, but though nobody is speaking on it, he's howie's son. Davis loves speed but imo he loves his nostalgic sentiment and bloodline connections to it more than anything(I.E. bringing in branch and iron's kids). There isnt a moment Al isnt saying "The greatness of the raiders". Another son from that era who is actually possibly within his dads realm of skills has to catch some attention. Again I think that if Long is there, we take him for many reasons. I think one that stics out for Al is:

Chiefs right below us would love to get him.

While I think Long would be a fine pick and wouldn't complain one bit, I have a hard time visualizing Al Davis in the War Room saying to coaches and scouts "Our pick will be dictated by who we think the Chiefs are going to take". If picking a player the Chiefs want screws them over, it's a bonus. But it's not a primary reason for selecting that player.

[Raidermania12]

While I think Long would be a fine pick and wouldn't complain one bit, I have a hard time visualizing Al Davis in the War Room saying to coaches and scouts "Our pick will be dictated by who we think the Chiefs are going to take". If picking a player the Chiefs want screws them over, it's a bonus. But it's not a primary reason for selecting that player.

Never said primary, but its bigger reason than it would be for anybody else. And no i doubt its as simple cut and dry as you drew up in that war room scenario. I do think its on his mind though big time.