So where does everyone stand on Michael Bush? [Archive]

RaiderWilde

01-10-2008, 12:04 AM

Should we treat this as what we expect, or how we'd procede? I mean, I expect him to be a future #1, but I wouldn't procede that way. I'd bring in some help/resing Fargas to hedge my bets.

Yeah i think Al will show Huggy some loyalty and give him a contract extension... i don't think it's the best option but certainly not the worse... i liked the way Fargas was running in Norv and Shell's offense cause no matter who was blocking up front Young Hugg seemed to make sure he ran with heart and motor.

But Dominic Rhodes proved this year and even Lamont had brief glimpses on early in the season that our blocking scheme can make any running back successful.

I personally wanna see a 2 headed monster of Rhodes and Bush getting the majority of snaps early in on 08. (Rhodes was running unconscious against 2 great defenses when he was no.1 He had both Jacksonville and the Chargers on the backfoot)

But as 2008 goes deeper and deeper into the scheduale i think we can look for either

A) Our season heads south and the right choice is to give Bush more reps then Rhodes and see if he can emerge into something.

or

B) Michael flat out beats Dominic for the job in say week 7 or week 8 and we are all biting our pillows for letting Lane let the man rest in 2007. (But it was the right move resting him in 07, wait till you see this cat run with determination for all the coaches not trusting on his game)

The Biggest reason why this guy is a sleeper was he was a Heisman candidate before he broke his leg. He put up insane numbers at Louisville and had he not had the injury he would have been a 1st day pick somewhere between Adrian Peterson and Marshawn Lynch.

vespasian

01-10-2008, 12:31 AM

That's actually a good question as how you answer it will really dictate what you do with LJ, DR and JF.

From what I understand of his college career the guy was a beast and projected to be a lock first round pick. So it would seem that he has the talent but the question arises concerning his treatment last season.

IMO, if you think Bush is going to be the guy you let Fargas walk and release LJ going with a RB tandem of Rhodes and Bush for 2008. This could complicate matters for 2009 if Rhodes bolts but it may not be that big a deal as the ZBS that they are working with allows for a greater degree of turnover at the RB position traditionally. Conversley you could go with resigning Fargas, keeping Rhodes and Bush. This though would seem to be a waste of a roster spot, especially if we are going to be carrying 2 FBs.

If you think that Bush is not the guy for the future then you release LJ, work hard to resign Fargas and keep Rhodes. One could hope that McFadden falls to us at #4 (I'll go with WCS for the moment) and let Fargas go but that would be risky IMO.

I like the idea of resigning Fargas simply because of his character, heart and how he persevered with the Raiders. That being said that may not be the best move for the Raiders already having Bush and Rhodes under contract for next year.

Personally I say we go with Bush for the future, keep Rhodes, release Jordan and allow Fargas to get a job elsewhere.

RaiderWilde

01-10-2008, 12:51 AM

If you think that Bush is not the guy for the future then you release LJ, work hard to resign Fargas and keep Rhodes. One could hope that McFadden falls to us at #4 (I'll go with WCS for the moment)

Dude ever heard of a jinx!

Worst Case Scenario is if we had kept Art Shell and were flipping with the Miami Flippers!

I don't like the way McFadden runs... he looks like a Heroin Addict who's stolen a old ladies purse and is already calling his dealer before his counted the contents of the pensioner purse.

Actually i just dont like the way he runs cause he looks like he has a hunchback too.

CrossBones

01-10-2008, 05:24 AM

I'm troubled that Bush wasn't able to hit the foild in '07. This broken leg thing has been lingering (allegedly) and something seems wrong. Could it be that in spite of all he practice field coach talk that Bush just isn't the real deal? Frankly I have no idea.

So yeah (e) have no clue.

jatfly

01-10-2008, 05:25 AM

I can't say I know enough right now, I mean he never hit the field...........I hope he blows up never year and is the RB we have always wanted......
Ask us this after this upcoming season. I will hope that help us sort it out. This offseason I am worried, I don't want to pay Fargas a ton of money because He can't stay healthy. If we dump Jordon and keep Rhoades it could be nice to see Rhoades and Bush if he is ready to go. I think we should sign Fargas to a two year deal. That way we can evaluate Rhoades and Fargas and Bush......

Raider Nation

01-10-2008, 06:52 AM

NIPS

01-10-2008, 07:09 AM

I answered the question in terms of what I expect from him in 2008. I don't think he'll be the starter, especially considering we're likely to either re-sign Fargas or, if not, sit pretty for picking McFadden. But I do think he'll be a contributor and I am thinking that if he's 100% Oakland has the potential for a pretty sick running game next year.

If we draft MCFadden, then we should keep Rhodes and trade both Fargas and Jordan

Rhodes
Bush
McFadden

Rhodes is the more proven powerback we have, he and Bush with a healthy dose of a speed HB in McFadden

Freakshow

01-10-2008, 07:34 AM

After finally placing Bush on IR last year Kiffin told him "he would be in competition for the starting tailback spot next season". To me this means we have some fairly high expectations for the kid despite what will amount to a two-year departure from any live action on his part. I think we resign Fargas, Jordan splits via free agency and Rhodes follows suit. We draft McFadden and he ends up the starter due to pressure from Al to get our prized posession in the lineup. We'd be seriously stacked ar RB if this comes to pass.

Raider Bill

01-10-2008, 07:52 AM

I see him as the primary guy in a RBBC situation.

massraider

01-10-2008, 08:13 AM

I loved the use of a 4th round pick on him, but I am a little nervous about his size and running style, which I wouldn't describe as "bruising".

If we can get Brandon Jacobs-like production, swell, but jacoibs is faster, and gets a lot of boo-boos.

I am not optimistic, but I also have no idea how he'd fit into the scheme.

CrossBones

01-10-2008, 08:15 AM

...I am not optimisticMass is not optimistic? We're fucked. :D

RHC

01-10-2008, 08:47 AM

I don't have a clue how valuable he'll be. However, if he can't push Fargas (or whoever) for the starting job next year my opinion of him would be pretty low.

Raider Bill

01-10-2008, 08:49 AM

:pMass is not optimistic? We're fucked. :D

LOOL

hawaiianboy

01-10-2008, 08:58 AM

I don't like the choices...

(e) No Clue...

What he said....

As frustrating as it was not seeing him, we knew when we took him that 2007 was going to basically be a red shirt year and we were going to err on the side of caution... It would have been nice to see him get a few carries there at the end, but apparently we couldn't cut LaMont in fear that he would lead the Chiefs to, errr, 6 wins now could we? :shakehead:

IMO, we should approach this as whatever we get from Bush should be gravy instead of relying on him to be the answer... Even if he is back to 100% physically, is he going to be back 100% mentally or always have that fear of something similar happening?... Put that together with Rhodes being almost 30 and the prospect of committing starters money to Fargas and all his injury ghosts, and you have a pretty good argument to grab the first true potential superstar back we've had since Bo got his hip taken out if we're indeed in the position to do so...

If it's true that this blocking system makes average backs good, imagine what it will do with a great talent with home run abilities?... A one two punch of McFadden and Bush? I think Clay Davis from The Wire PUTS IT BEST (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-QNB4wMH3PU)

gst8

01-10-2008, 09:55 AM

Kiffin did mention that his weight was an issue at some point. Not sure why being that he had nothing else to do but work out at the facility all season... but perhaps Bush's conditioning was the reason he was never activated.

Who knows.

massraider

01-10-2008, 10:08 AM

Mass is not optimistic? We're fucked. :D

Ha, I know, I know.

But I am a big believer that NFL running backs that offer long term success tend to fit into a similar body size. 5'10"--6'1", 210--230 pounds. Or somewhere around there. Low to the ground, not a lot to hit, and thick. Better short than tall.

That's why the upright Adrain Peterson made me nervous, and why the high-waisted McFadden makes me wonder. My worries about Peterson seem a little unfounded right now, but at the same time, he DID get hurt this past season. More than once, IIRC. Wouldn't surprise me if Marshawn has a longer, better career, who isn't close to the same talent, but will probably take less hard shots.

Bush presents a different set of concerns for me. These monster backs, it seems like the set of circumstances they are in needs to be a certain way in order for them to succeed. When KC had Word and Okoye, the offense focused on the running game wearing down the defense, and those teams ween't built for comebacks. Maybe that was a byproduct of crappy QB play, but they always seemed one-dimensional.

And those big backs always seem to boom or bust. I'd like to figure a way to research the history of big backs, but dunno how I'd do it.

Or maybe I'm just still smarting from the Nick Bell draft pick.

S and B Executioner

01-10-2008, 10:10 AM

Raider Bill

01-10-2008, 10:27 AM

The thing with Bush is he didn't carry the load at Louisville.

He split carries with Eric Shelton and Kolby Smith(?)

No matter how much stationary bike he rode in the past year, I don't think it's realistic to pencil him into Fargas' role from this past season. (a 90/10 guy) He's more of a 60/40 guy.

Madturk

01-10-2008, 10:56 AM

.

And those big backs always seem to boom or bust. I'd like to figure a way to research the history of big backs, but dunno how I'd do it.

Or maybe I'm just still smarting from the Nick Bell draft pick.

Man you must have been reading my mind because that's the first name that popped into my head when I read this thread.:eek:

I'm with the "good value in the 4th round pick" faction on Bush. I liked the pick then, I still like it now even though we haven't seen him take one snap. Honestly not too worried about the RB situation with so many other areas to address. We have Bush and Rhodes under contract. LJ is a goner so I don't count him. I'm all for paying Fargas as long as we don't break the bank. I'm really undecided about DMac.

Crow

01-10-2008, 12:04 PM

I guess there are a couple or 3 different ways to approach this question. I suppose I should have asked a more specific question, or added more poll options to accommodate all the potential viewpoints.

I haven't even voted in my own poll, if that tells you anything.

Like most, I absolutely loved the pick.

Disappointed that he didn't take the field this year, but I can't help but remember what happened when we rushed Curry back. So, I can't fault them for red-shirting him.

Bush was a freak in college. Probably not going to be that insane as a pro. Doesn't "run behind his pads", so I don't view him as the guy to put back there on 4th & 1.

Doesn't run as big as his size, but the guy can definitely run. He catches the ball well, so we can split him out wide a few times a game.

For this scheme, I like his vision and cutback ability.

Am I sold on him being our #1 stunna? I want to be. I really, really want to be. But I have to see it first. If we go by what we saw of him pre-injury, then I'd have to say that I like his chances. A full offseason/camp/preseason should get him into game shape. I want to call him a steal, but I'm settled into my wait & see mentality for now. The first time he breaks a long one in preseason, though...all bets are off. :D

My vote would probably be that he's a lead back in a RBBC, but I really think he can put up some Clinton Portis type numbers in this offense, even if he's not the homerun threat Portis was.

massraider

01-10-2008, 12:19 PM

Anyone else think Crow and I switched user names for the day?

Crow

01-10-2008, 01:13 PM

As for the other cats we have:

Jordan is gone. I don't think that's even up in the air at this point.

I'd like to bring Huggy back. But what's his asking price going to be? I think maybe the late season injury hurt his market value, along with his total lack of production prior to '06. The "system back" label may also haunt him. The more I think about it, the more I think we'll be able to retain him for a pretty reasonable price.

Rhodes is a guy I'd like to keep. But between his cost, and the likelihood that he's not going to willingly go back to a barely-used #3 role, makes me think we're going to cut him loose. Also, there has to be a reason Kiffin was dissing him all season long until we absolutely had to play him. I think he's gone right behind Jordan.

Kiffin made a point of singling out RB as a position he wanted to address this offseason. Was he smokescreening, or does he really want a stud back with Bush as the reserve? Considering how rarely Kiff subs his RBs, I think he's definitely a feature back kind of coach. So, knowing this, we know he wants one basket to carry the majority of his eggs. Huggy's not that guy. Is Bush?

I think I'm more confused now than ever.

Crow

01-10-2008, 01:17 PM

Anyone else think Crow and I switched user names for the day?

So long as you're not wearing my underwear, we're cool.

massraider

01-10-2008, 01:25 PM

So long as you're not wearing my underwear, we're cool.

Nah, I go commando.

Agree with your 'confused' comment. Or to put another way, uncertain. I think the team can go in a myriad of directions.

We could go with Bush and Rhodes.

Bush, Fargas, Rhodes.

Bush, some rookie back.

Bush and McFadden.

Lots of questions:

Is our system good enough to make studs out of average backs (Fargas)?

If so, why draft one early?

OTOH, a supreme talent can have a major impact on the field.

Can Fargas be counted on, health-wise? OK, we know the answer to this one.

What do we have in Bush.

I truly have no idea what the Raiders will do, or even what I think we should do. It'll be interesting anyways.

RHC

01-10-2008, 02:06 PM

While I am impressed with Fargas the 07 version and Rhodes showed glimpses I am not sold on either as the defacto starter in 08. That said, I still love the 4th round selection Bush. I also think he wins the job in camp or he's a perenial back up and never was. The only way he gets the job from anyone in camp is if we dont draft McFadden. I for one, think Chris Long is the choice, provided we get the 3rd over all pick.

If Bush wins the job in camp, he'll be the starter for years to come!I'm sold on Fargas because he impressed me in both 2007 and 2006.

Fargas is exactly what Raiders fans have been screaming for for years. A very productive, blue-collar hard worker who steps up to the plate when we really need him and leaves it all on the field week in and week out.

If you're sold on Burgess you have to be sold on Fargas as well. Very similar pro careers in regard to coming back strong from serious early injuries.

The dude seems to click big-time in the new blocking scheme. Don't fix what ain't broken. Huggy should go into 2008 as the named starter IMO. Let everyone else try to catch up.

Fargas/Rhodes/Bush/Griffith/O'Neal sits just fine with me. With a couple of upgrades on the o-line they'll tear it up.

DL in round 1. Preferably Chris Long. We'll never win if we can't start pressuring the QB.

Raider Bill

01-10-2008, 02:28 PM

Huggy's not that guy. Is Bush?

I don't think that Bush is that guy either.

I don't know if I buy the "eggs in one basket" line of reasoning.

If Kiffin's time spent at USC was a reasonable facsimile of what he wants to do then you had a Thunder/Lightning kinda deal.

Crow

01-10-2008, 02:31 PM

That's what I expected too, but it never materialized. He rode Jordan into the ground, then did the same thing with Huggy.

Maybe he just wanted them out of the way so he could bring in his guys.

Raider Bill

01-10-2008, 02:33 PM

All we can do is speculate... I'm not going to say my speculation is any more or less valid than yours

:p

It is what it is

Crow

01-10-2008, 03:09 PM

Not sure what to make of this castrated version of Bill. Seems almost shameful.

Machiavelli

01-10-2008, 03:11 PM

Prozac will do that to a man.

poptart

01-10-2008, 03:23 PM

I'm sold on Fargas because he impressed me in both 2007 and 2006.

Fargas is exactly what Raiders fans have been screaming for for years. A very productive, blue-collar hard worker who steps up to the plate when we really need him and leaves it all on the field week in and week out.

If you're sold on Burgess you have to be sold on Fargas as well. Very similar pro careers in regard to coming back strong from serious early injuries.

The dude seems to click big-time in the new blocking scheme. Don't fix what ain't broken. Huggy should go into 2008 as the named starter IMO. Let everyone else try to catch up.

Fargas/Rhodes/Bush/Griffith/O'Neal sits just fine with me. With a couple of upgrades on the o-line they'll tear it up.

DL in round 1. Preferably Chris Long. We'll never win if we can't start pressuring the QB.

I agree 100%

Stanny

01-10-2008, 03:59 PM

I like the fact that Huggy and Rhodes produced and they did well...My only problem is neither one of them is a "threat." There isn't a defense out there that worries about them guys, meaning none of them are going to make a move or two and take it to the house, ie LT, Westbrook, Gore, Peterson etc...Is Bush that kind of back? I don't think so...not on that level. BUT, I would compare him to a Steven Jackson. Big back who has good feet and great hands. Jackson runs more n/s and runs with more power, but I've seen Bush lay the wood too when needed. Bush has a little more wiggle than Jackson, more nimble, less power then that of the BUS and the guy at his size again has GREAT feet. Doesn't take too many losses for carries and can pick a gap/hole in seconds. Someone else mentioned Brandon Jacobs and they are similar in size, but Jacobs in my opinion doesn't have the vision and feet that Bush has. Now granted, Jacobs has had some success in the NFL and Bush has not, but Bush was nasty in college, lets hope that translates to the NFL.

With Bush you are talking about a back who is 6'2, 243lbs who was an EX QB and runs a 4.5 40....again with good hands.

He could make a great 1-2 punch with Rhodes and or Huggy. However, it could be a CRAZY tandem with Bush and Darren McFadden. Kiff would have his Reggie Bush and Lendale White part deux....

Bush in the single set, Mc Fadden split wide....Are they running or passing?:eek:

Crow

01-10-2008, 04:13 PM

Bush in the single set, Mc Fadden split wide....Are they running or passing?
Flip-flop them and you're still well set up to either run or pass.

Nice problem to have, if it happens.

Stanny

01-10-2008, 04:15 PM

Flip-flop them and you're still well set up to either run or pass.

Nice problem to have, if it happens.

True brother Crow....thus true.:D

gst8

01-10-2008, 04:20 PM

Crow

01-10-2008, 04:22 PM

Still need to get Griff more carries/touches. Highly underutilized player.

Stanny

01-10-2008, 04:50 PM

Not many starting RB's are a serious threat to take it all the way on a consistent basis. The instant gratification X-gener inside me would love to have McFadden but I'd also feel pretty content going into next season with a Huggy/Rhodes/Bush battery.

Thus my reasoning in taking McFadden. You are true there are only a handful so why not join the crowd? Maybe the word "take it to the house" wasn't the best term rather than "make" something out of nothing would be better with the threat to take it to the house. Backs that I think make defenses shit themselves would have to be and they game plan around:

Michael Westbrook
Ladanian
Adrian Peterson
Reggie Bush (He's been mediocre, but with his versatility D. Coordinators piss themselves)
Jones Drew
Gore
Steven Jackson

Ex backs such as Tiki Barber, Marshall Faulk, our own Marcus Allen, Thurmon Thomas etc.

These backs are very versitile, have speed, good hands, can run with power, good vision etc....Fargas is none of the above and I don't think defenses plan around Huggy, they just simply play run and stack the box and if a "hole" is not present, Fargas is nill....McFadden can turn those types of situations into something or he can create great mismatches. Just me two cents....

Raider Bill

01-10-2008, 05:20 PM

Not sure what to make of this castrated version of Bill. Seems almost shameful.

I wouldn't say castrated. I just no longer see the point of posting incessantly arguing about speculation and shit you can't do anything about.

That's not to say there isn't room for healthy debate when something is worth debating.

E.G. If the Raiders were to trade for Larry Fitzgerald tomorrow, you'd have something worth debating.

Byron2112

01-10-2008, 05:52 PM

Bush in the single set, Mc Fadden split wide....Are they running or passing?:eek:

I like this idea very much!

BigTron

01-10-2008, 06:16 PM

Darren McFadden, JaMarcus Russell, Michael Bush, Justin Griffith and O.Oneil would make a big strong backfield. Defense's would have a tough day tackling that crew.

BigTron

01-10-2008, 06:18 PM

at 6'2 McFadden could split out often. Thats just one of the ways to use that guy. He could help in the passing game untilw e find some quality Wr's. Right now we could use all the help we could get.

SoCalRaider

01-10-2008, 06:49 PM

At this level, I think McFadden has a better chance of succeeding at WR than at RB...

nin

01-10-2008, 09:03 PM

BigTron

01-10-2008, 11:54 PM

Bush and fargas are great, but they both have injury concerns and neither is on the McFadden playmaker TD bringer level.

jatfly

01-11-2008, 05:29 AM

Yeah I have been putting off the RB spot for some time but Stanny makes a great point, playmakers at that position make you a top team....So screw it take McFadden and that way we have he and Bush in the back field for the next 10 years.......HOLY SHIT those two back there and healthy!!! Look the F out!!!!!
If we could only sign some linemen and steal a WR or two and pick a couple of S and DL........wow we need alot of shit this offseason....but we don't need a QB for a change....

massraider

01-11-2008, 05:42 AM

I am sure people have made their feelings known elsewhere, but is there a groundswell of support for the notion of taking Run DMC over Dorsey or Long? :confused:

While it's tempting to look at the impact AD had in Minny, we HAD a good running game, and it didn't help much because of our swiss cheese D-Line. And DMac is no All Day Peterson. IMO.

If tragedy strikes, and Dorsey/Long go 1-2, I will entertain this thought, but man, I just can't see us staring at Chris Long, and taking a back. Not when Justin Fargas can run for a grand behind our current line.

Man, if we could walk away with Long and Jamaal Charles or Felix Jones, I wouldn't care if Al took 3 cornerbacks from frickin' Jackson State on Day 2. I feel very, very strongly that when our pick comes up in the 2nd round, the RB candidates are gonna look a lot better than the D-Line prospects.

Raider Bill

01-11-2008, 05:56 AM

I am sure people have made their feelings known elsewhere, but is there a groundswell of support for the notion of taking Run DMC over Dorsey or Long? :confused:

I don't get it either.

Part of the inherent value in this system was not requiring top flite RB's. Just a certain kind of guy.

Raider Nation

01-11-2008, 07:16 AM

I think most of it can be attributed to Adrian Peterson's success as a rookie. People are seeing that and thinking it can be duplicated. It's a what have you done for me lately league, and people see Peterson and immediately think "young Eric Dickerson". So when a hyped up cat like McFadden is the next sure thing at RB, people will salivate.

Me personally, I still walk away from the 1st round with either Dorsey, Gholston, or Long.

Freakshow

01-11-2008, 09:50 AM

It's not hard to understand. A superrior running game can be devestating. It takes huge pressure off the passing game, eats up minutes for longer drives and keeps opponents defense on the field longer, lower risk for turnovers, helps promote physical play, etc...there's no argument there. Teams that can run effectively normally win in the NFL.

Look at what happend in San Diego. They bring in LT and over a 3-year period they become championship contenders. Peterson helps vault Minny into playoff contention his rookie year. You can even go back to Terrell Davis in Denver. They could always run it but when Davis came on the scene they won the Superbowl.

With our new zone-blocking scheme and a little more help on the line a back with the ability of McFadden just might launch our offense into that type of rare, upper-echelon offensive attack we haven't seen since the days of Bo and Marcus. I understand that Jordan, Fargas, Rhodes & co. carried it well for us but that's not the point. I'm talking about a star in our backfield - a guy that can put us on the map. This cat's for real and to me it's an absolute no-brainer. He's the consensus "best player in the draft" and he just might fall in our laps at #3 or #4.

I love what Chris Long brings, believe me, but no way I pass on an opportunity to take one of the best college back prospects of all time.

hawaiianboy

01-11-2008, 10:33 AM

Me personally, I still walk away from the 1st round with either Dorsey, Gholston, or Long.

I can see Long or Dorsey, but wouldn't taking Gholston over McFadden be a clear cut case of drafting for need over taking the best player available? Haven't we learned our lesson doing that yet?...

To me, we just can't afford to swing and miss on another top 10 pick, which IMO is what we've done now in 2004 (Gallery), 2005 (Moss trade) and 2006 (Huff)... If it's me making the pick, I take the best player with the least amount of question marks which right now IMO is McFadden and Chris Long at 1a and 1b with Jake Long next up.... I knock Dorsey down a bit because I have some weight/injury concerns with him and Gholston down because I think he needs to be utilized in a specific scheme, which hasn't exactly been our strong suit...

Raider Bill

01-11-2008, 10:34 AM

Every year there's a new "best college back prospect of all time" it seems.

S and B Executioner

01-11-2008, 10:37 AM

I really like the idea of drafting McFadden, it would be really exciting. But at the same time I believe Justin Fargas and Michael Bush can get the job done easily and we can draft Dorsey or Long to help the D-line...

Really what it comes down to is, I don't want to pass on McFadden and than he becomes some super beast RB. So if he is gone I really wouldn't be all that upset because D-line is a much bigger need.

Goin to the All Nude titty bars in the ATL and dropping half your paycheck in one night is exciting too, but the end result is the same: You walk away with a buzz and a hard on but no real conquest until you get home and kill a few babies on the shower wall.

massraider

01-11-2008, 10:50 AM

Goin to the All Nude titty bars in the ATL and dropping half your paycheck in one night is exciting too, but the end result is the same: You walk away with a buzz and a hard on but no real conquest until you get home and kill a few babies on the shower wall.

Didn't you write greeting cards? :)

S and B Executioner

01-11-2008, 10:59 AM

Didn't you write greeting cards? :)

Ya, I am sure stuff like that would be a big seller!! For next trick ....................

massraider

01-11-2008, 11:10 AM

I can see Long or Dorsey, but wouldn't taking Gholston over McFadden be a clear cut case of drafting for need over taking the best player available? Haven't we learned our lesson doing that yet?...

To me, we just can't afford to swing and miss on another top 10 pick, which IMO is what we've done now in 2004 (Gallery), 2005 (Moss trade) and 2006 (Huff)... If it's me making the pick, I take the best player with the least amount of question marks which right now IMO is McFadden and Chris Long at 1a and 1b with Jake Long next up.... I knock Dorsey down a bit because I have some weight/injury concerns with him and Gholston down because I think he needs to be utilized in a specific scheme, which hasn't exactly been our strong suit...

In the Roger Goodell NFL, I am nervous about McFadden's record in drinking establishments. If we draft him, he and SeaBass need to be seperated on road trips.

I can just see McFadden starting a fight, expecting SeaBass to back him up, and Janikowski passing out before a punch is thrown.

RHC

01-11-2008, 11:26 AM

Flip-flop them and you're still well set up to either run or pass.

Nice problem to have, if it happens.Of course that's a nice problem to have.

But it's a shitty move if it causes us to ignore the hideous problem we call our d-line. Can't pressure the QB. Can't stop the run. What the fuck else is a d-line for?? That's it. That's the job. Stop the run. Rush the passer. We got nothin'.

IMO we need a monster playmaker on our d-line a lot more than at RB.

However, if Huggy actually walks in FA I'd have to seriously re-think that position.

Raider Bill

01-11-2008, 11:58 AM

I think it comes down to which philosophy wins out.

"We didn't score enough points" vs "The QB must go down and he must go down hard"

I favor the latter myself

Machiavelli

01-11-2008, 12:17 PM

We need to fix the DL, with Long, Gholston, Dorsey, or Ellis in RD 1, and I'm partial to Red Bryant in RD 2. 2 projected starters it seems, with Burgess there too, it'd help a lot.

Limee

01-11-2008, 01:59 PM

While it's tempting to look at the impact AD had in Minny, we HAD a good running game, and it didn't help much because of our swiss cheese D-Line. And DMac is no All Day Peterson. IMO.
I agree. I thought Peterson was the best player last year, but I have more doubts over McFadden both on and off the field.
I think it comes down to which philosophy wins out.

"We didn't score enough points" vs "The QB must go down and he must go down hard"

I favor the latter myself
I concur. I think an arguement can be made as to who is really the best player between Dorsey, McFadden and Long. I think the offense is taking steps in the right direction and would be happy going into next season with a backfield of Fargas, Bush and Rhodes or AN Other. McFadden could add a completely different dimension to the offence, but if I was making the pick he wouldn't be top of my board.

As far as Bush goes, for next year I see him as part of the backfield who will get opportunities. I have no idea what he will he will do with his chance.

Freakshow

01-11-2008, 02:37 PM

Every year there's a new "best college back prospect of all time" it seems.

true...true...

however, i will say that AP and DMc graded/grade out higher than 1st round backs in most other years. size, speed, acceleration, lateral movement, vision, pass catching ability, and if you add in durability and throwing ability in DMc's case I think you've got quite a back on your hands.

Here's a look at the running backs selected in the 1st round over the past 15 seasons: I've bolded the names I think can compare to McFadden (just my unfounded opinion of course).

2007 - Adrian Peterson and Marshawn Lynch
2006 - Reggie Bush and L. Maroney
2005 - Ronnie Brown, C. Benson, Cadillac
2004 - S. Jackson, C. Perry, Kevin Jones
2003 - W. MaGahee, Larry Johnson
2002 - William Green, T.J. Duckett
2001 - L. Tominson, Duece McCallister, Michael Bennett
2000 - J. Lewis, T. Jones, R. Dayne, Shawn Alexandar, T. Candidate
1999 - Edgerrin James, Ricky Williams
1998 - Curtis Ennis, Fred Taylor, Robert Edwards, John Avery
1997 - Warrick Dunn, Antwain Smith
1996 - Lawerence Phillips, Tim Biakabatuka, Eddie George
1995 - K. Carter, T. Wheately, Nap Kauffman, J. Stewart, R. Salaam
1994 - Marshall Faulk, Greg Hill
1993 - Garrison Hearst, Jerome Bettis, R. Smith

You can see from my assessment that I don't think guys like this come around very often.

CrossBones

01-11-2008, 03:51 PM

Machiavelli

01-11-2008, 04:31 PM

Raiderrob

01-11-2008, 05:15 PM

I don't like the choices...

(e) No Clue...

:)I am 100% for (e). I just dont have any evidence to have a clue one way or the other. However, saying that, I think we may have had the steal of the draft if he plays the way he was expected to play or projected to play prior to the injury. I just don't know how he responded while being held to limited practice. :confused:

:confused:Kiffin has kept a good lid on it because at the time he had to make a decision Huggy Jr started to kick ass and he had Rhodes and a semi-LJ available to run the ball. I think he made the safe and smart decision at the time. Between JR and Bush we may have a very pleasant suprise in store for us next camp. :confused:

Freakshow

01-11-2008, 05:21 PM

I'd cancel Bush out of that group. He's not much in the NFL. Great college back but he's neither fish nor foul in the NFL. He's great in the open field if he can get into the open field. But as many expected he's probably too small to be a featured every down back. and now he's getting dinged up a lot.

True that Bones, but I was going off what kind of "prospect" these guys were coming out of college. It just happens that 4 of the 5 (excluding Bush) also made excellent pro's as well. I totally believe McFadden follows suit. Aside from a few minor off-the field incidents he's pretty much flawless.

Rupert

01-11-2008, 05:28 PM

I think next year Bush just might rise to the #1 RBBC spot. I'd hedge on him being a featured back until he gets his wheels under him. I think he has more to give than Fargas did.

I'd bring Fargas back , but not for a big contract. If he wants too much, RaShard Lee is worth another contract, and if someone tempting falls to a nice spot in the 3rd I would give up a future pick for him as a developmental guy when Rhodes bolts after 2 years.

Rupert

01-11-2008, 05:29 PM

True that Bones, but I was going off what kind of "prospect" these guys were coming out of college. It just happens that 4 of the 5 (excluding Bush) also made excellent pro's as well. I totally believe McFadden follows suit. Aside from a few minor off-the field incidents he's pretty much flawless.

You like the toothpicks he's got below the knees?

Crow

01-11-2008, 05:30 PM

007

01-11-2008, 05:41 PM

McFadden is far from flawless.

He's built too high. He has skinny legs. He comes from an even more gimmicky offense than Tomlinson did. There's a lot about McFadden that can be, and should be, nitpicked.

He's a helluva prospect, but he's not on LT's level. If not for the injury concerns, AD would be far and away a better prospect.

AD still is far and away the better prospect.

I still think McFadden is very dynamic though. People question the wild hog formation, but the dude busted plenty of runs from the 'I' too.

He's quick, agile, elusive, runs hard and has no injury history. He has good tread on his tires and I don't think he's even turned 21 yet.

All prospects come with question marks (Dorsey would have even more) but at some point you pull the trigger on the best guy. If we're staring at the third pick and he's the best guy, we take him.

That being said, Im firmly in the Chris Long Jihad at the moment.

massraider

01-11-2008, 06:25 PM

Long in the 1st, Charles in the 2nd.:bong:

Although I would not be angry at Crows DL/DL plan.

Machiavelli

01-11-2008, 06:32 PM

Long/Bryant '08!

007

01-11-2008, 06:33 PM

Long in the 1st, Charles in the 2nd.:bong:

Although I would not be angry at Crows DL/DL plan.

Sign me up.

I really like Branden Alberts in the second, although I bet he goes in the 20-30 spot. A tackle like Sam Baker, Chris Williams or Anthony Collins would be excellent for the ZBS.

I like Pat Sims from Auburn too if we do go DL-DL.

Or a WR like Hardy, Devin Thomas, Limas Sweed or Early Doucet would help JR out immensely.

Crow

01-11-2008, 07:09 PM

There's already been one or two junior DTs declare, and I expect there'll be one or two more. This could be the perfect class to hit the DL, hit it hard, and not have to worry about it again for 5 or 6 years.

BigTron

01-12-2008, 01:37 AM

We need alot of help so i dont care what direction w e go as long as we pick the right players.

Freakshow

01-12-2008, 09:35 AM

McFadden is far from flawless.

He's built too high. He has skinny legs. He's a helluva prospect, but he's not on LT's level. If not for the injury concerns, AD would be far and away a better prospect.

I hear you crow, but those skinny legs carry him to a 4.4 fourty. Maybe if he had Earl Campbell legs he would run so fast...I could care less what he looks like as long as he's productive and not an injury risk. AP was hurt several times and so far McFadden has yet to get injured. Running "high" is always a concern but to that I ask - does he take big shots like Justin Fargas or Chris Brown? To me he's slippery enough to avoid the big hit (maybe not as good as Marcus was) but we'll see I guess.

Crow

01-12-2008, 10:22 AM

I could care less what he looks like as long as he's productive and not an injury risk.
That's the whole point. When you're built that tall and your legs are that skinny, you are an injury risk.

Nobody's talking about the man's build based on style points. His body and running style are high risk.

Again, I'm a DMc fan. I think he's a terrific prospect and a legit top 5 pick. But it's going to be a whole new world when he gets to the NFL. He's not going to out-slick an NFL LB the way he did the guys at the U of Tennessee. He's not going to bowl people over. He's a homerun hitter. He likes to get to the outside and hit the gas. As Reggie Bush can attest to, it's just not that easy once you start earning a check.

BigTron

01-12-2008, 02:27 PM

That's the whole point. When you're built that tall and your legs are that skinny, you are an injury risk.

Nobody's talking about the man's build based on style points. His body and running style are high risk.

Again, I'm a DMc fan. I think he's a terrific prospect and a legit top 5 pick. But it's going to be a whole new world when he gets to the NFL. He's not going to out-slick an NFL LB the way he did the guys at the U of Tennessee. He's not going to bowl people over. He's a homerun hitter. He likes to get to the outside and hit the gas. As Reggie Bush can attest to, it's just not that easy once you start earning a check.

But in this system any RB can produce. :D

Crow

01-12-2008, 08:24 PM

Any RB that has the right amount of vision and cutback ability. I think McFadden has both. But, he also has those Callista Flockhart legs. Kinda scary.

massraider

01-13-2008, 06:22 AM

Any RB that has the right amount of vision and cutback ability. I think McFadden has both. But, he also has those Callista Flockhart legs. Kinda scary.

Ahhh. It's so pleasant to see eye to eye with Crow on something.

I will say this, devil's advocate-style: If Marcus Allen came out of college again, I wouldn't want any part of him. Carries the ball like a loaf of bread, skinny as hell, weird gliding style......

Right now, McFadden looks like he's gonna take a lot of shots to his knees, and he looks kind of skinny.

But he might just be a tough sumbitch that runs for 10,000 yards, and throws for another 2 or 3 a year.

I'm just not willing to wager the 3rd or 4th pick on it.

CrossBones

01-13-2008, 06:42 AM

Any RB that has the right amount of vision and cutback ability. I think McFadden has both. But, he also has those Callista Flockhart legs. Kinda scary.The "Callista Flockhart legs" issue seems to rival the T-Rex issue with Robert Gallery. That in itself may be a good reason to stay away less we be quoting Calista for the next 4 years. Ugh.

Crow

01-13-2008, 07:50 AM

The bad thing is, I make that comment knowing full well that I'll be secretly hoping we get this guy. Shameful.

Mass' post makes sense. DMc may get snapped off at this shins on his first carry, or he may wind up in Canton. If he can find some really sturdy shin guards, he's got Clinton Portis type rookie numbers in his future, I believe.

I hear Julius Jones has been officially, and finally, benched in favor of Marion the Barbarian, and that he's pissed about it. He'll be ready to empty out his locker as soon as Dallas' season ends. I've mentioned him before, and I know it's comical to say his name in the same breath as McFadden's. But he's a good back. He can hit the home run. I'd like to know that we called his agent to see what kind of deal he was looking for. I think he'd be pretty damn effective in this offense, provided he's limited to under 250 touches.

An early offseason move like that could leave McFadden waiting for Atlanta at #4 (As if we'd actually win the toss)...but that could also be exactly why we don't make that move. If teams know we're not going to take McFadden, we lose bluffing power and potential trade leverage.

Anyway, just rambling about another possible option.

NIPS

01-13-2008, 09:23 AM

Sheet, did Garrard look good last night or what?

I wont be opposed to taking Darren at 3 or 4...

But if we can pump out 1500 yards in the system why draft another RB?

Jacksonville played a smart game.. they didnt try and go for the homerun swing but just kept running and moving the ball downfield and ate up clock

It was a great game plan..

They shut Moss down... Yup they gave up the small passing yards but shut down the deep threat.

Jags plan was to chew up clock and make the Pats take time scoring.

And if not for that sack fumble.. Jags are right there in that game

Beautiful game called by Rio

Fargas broke 1000 yards after only 7 starts.. He damn near might have broken 2000 had he started from week 1

What would you rather have?

DMC hitting a homerun within 2 minutes of the 1st or a 7 minute drve with a score?

I'll take the latter

I love the Jags approach.. Thats the exact same gameplan we need to have.

Fargas, Rhodes and Bush are fine...

Gimmie the hogs up front on both sides of the ball

In any event... you ladies knock your knees together before you go to bed the night before the combines and wish us luck on the flip

At 3, I'll be happy with Dorsey, Chris Long or DMC

I wanna see Al Davis take a direct page from the Jags

Because that team knows their shit

Crow

01-13-2008, 09:30 AM

Fargas, Rhodes and Bush are fine...
I wouldn't get that crazy.

We need a homerun hitter. The Jags are great at springing long runs, so hitting the homerun on the ground pretty much does take a page from their book.

gst8

01-13-2008, 11:10 AM

SoCalRaider

01-13-2008, 11:50 AM

However, one thing to remember is that the Jags aren't exactly running system guys out there. They invested some relatively high picks to get that one-two punch in the backfield.

Also the same Jags team that just got their asses kicked by the organization that everybody is trying to copy. It's not a coincidence that Belichick typically spends his high picks on line players and has built the foundation that will produce a winner year after year after year. People are going to look back at this draft and laugh at any team that passes on some of these DLine guys.

RaiderIVlife

01-13-2008, 12:41 PM

I think Fargas has missed 2 games in 2 years. Not bad by NFL RB standards. The "can't stay healthy" and "fumble prone" myths about Fargas continue to be a big misnomer IMO and it's based on what happened the first 2 years of his career.

Justin Fargas has run harder and has been more reliable than LaMont Jordan over the past 2 seasons. Period. Is he my ideal #1 RB? No, of course not, but this guy has molded himself into a very solid football player and his work ethic and attitude are an example of what this team needs more of.

Just re-sign Fargas. Stat.

Michael Bush? I have no f*&king clue. If Darren McFadden is there, I wouldn't be opposed to taking him. Talk about having a lot of young talent on offense to play with....

"we didn't score enough" - Al Davis

I could see Davis drafting McFadden without blinking....

Crow

01-13-2008, 01:35 PM

I think Fargas has missed 2 games in 2 years. Not bad by NFL RB standards. The "can't stay healthy" and "fumble prone" myths about Fargas continue to be a big misnomer IMO and it's based on what happened the first 2 years of his career.
Do I even bother reading further?

Myths, indeed. :rolleyes:

"I think I made a doodie." *drool* - Al Davis

gst8

01-13-2008, 03:15 PM

Also the same Jags team that just got their asses kicked by the organization that everybody is trying to copy. It's not a coincidence that Belichick typically spends his high picks on line players and has built the foundation that will produce a winner year after year after year. People are going to look back at this draft and laugh at any team that passes on some of these DLine guys.

Belichick really doesn't spend as many high draft picks on line players as you'd think. He just has had better success with the ones he did take. The way I see it, it's very realistic to assume that we won't get a shot at Dorsey or Long. Hypothetically, that leaves us to choose between McFadden and Ellis. I'm fine with taking whoever the "powers that be" deem to be the better player... or, at least I would be if I had any confidence in our scouting department.

BigTron

01-13-2008, 04:08 PM

Belichick really doesn't spend as many high draft picks on line players as you'd think. He just has had better success with the ones he did take. The way I see it, it's very realistic to assume that we won't get a shot at Dorsey or Long. Hypothetically, that leaves us to choose between McFadden and Ellis. I'm fine with taking whoever the "powers that be" deem to be the better player... or, at least I would be if I had any confidence in our scouting department.

Zach Miller looked great. And JaMarcus is a very promising young QB. Add Richardson and O'Neil and our draft class played very well in their rookie season. Yes we cut Moses but i blame that one on Clemons strong play. It's too soon to judge it now but I am ok with last years draft so far. Hopefully Bowie, JHL, M.Bush and Mario Hendo will show up and get some time next season.

Byron2112

01-13-2008, 04:27 PM

BigTron

01-13-2008, 04:37 PM

Haha my bloomers are also unburnt. But I still will give some of those guys you named awhile to adjust. Mario was also a project who had more upside than production, hopefulyl Cable whips his ass into shape. JLH just looked overwhelmed and hopefully he was just shook form being nervous as a rookie etc. M.Bush is going to be a very good #2 at least IMO and i love the pick. Moses seemed like a great pcik at the time, but sometimes you just miss badly i guess. It was a boom or bust pick, Clemons and Richardson just outplayed him. Hopefully Moses will help Oakland by letting all players here now and in the future understand their ass will get cut if they dont earn their spot no matter what. Ask Moss or Moses.

Byron2112

01-13-2008, 04:49 PM

I know nothing about Mario, that he didn't even sniff the field is kinda shocking IMO, that's a relativly high pick on a team with totally underwelming O-line talent.

Johnny Lee is very dissapointing. I though this kid would give us a deep element to our offense or someone that could be a decoy at the very least, but he essentially did nothing on offense and he was legitimatly the worst punt return man I've ever witnessed.

Moses? Fuck him... must be a crackhead or something. The emergence of Clemons does erase some of the sting here.

Now Bush, believe it or not I am thinking this guy may be something special for us. He's way more talented than Fargas. He's got vision, and quickness, really good moves, he catches the ball, and even though he may not be a physical big back like Larry Johnson, the dude is 240 and no DB is going to have an easy time bringing him down or be looking forward to the idea.

If he's fully healthy he'll be our #1 no question in my mind. The kid was a big time prospect and producer, and just becasue he broke his leg doesn't erase all that.

Crow

01-13-2008, 05:34 PM

Belichick really doesn't spend as many high draft picks on line players as you'd think. He just has had better success with the ones he did take. The way I see it, it's very realistic to assume that we won't get a shot at Dorsey or Long. Hypothetically, that leaves us to choose between McFadden and Ellis. I'm fine with taking whoever the "powers that be" deem to be the better player... or, at least I would be if I had any confidence in our scouting department.

Actually, linemen and TEs (go figure) are what the Pats spend the majority of their #1 picks on. 4 DLs and 1 OL since 2001. They didn't have a #1 pick in 2000, but took an OL in '99.

Other high picks spent on linemen: Nick Kaczur (2005, Rd3), Marquise Hill (2004, Rd2), Matt Light (2001, Rd2), Adrian Klemm (2000, Rd2)

That's a lot of high picks dedicated to the trenches. The consistency with which they address their lines in the early rounds is telling, especially when you look at how well those lines play. Nothing the Pats are doing right now happens if they don't make their lines such a point of emphasis on draft day.

Oh, and a tip of the hat to their scouting. Almost all of these guys panned out.

Madturk

01-13-2008, 05:52 PM

That's a lot of high picks dedicated to the trenches. The consistency with which they address their lines in the early rounds is telling, especially when you look at how well those lines play. Nothing the Pats are doing right now happens if they don't make their lines such a point of emphasis on draft day.

Oh, and a tip of the hat to their scouting. Almost all of these guys panned out.

Not to mention Logan Mankins (from our own back yard) who was projected to go a lot lower than where the Pats took him in 2005. Dude's already a pro bowler in just his second year in the league.

With regards to last year's draft, this could still turn out to be one of our better draft classes in some time. We've already got 3 starters out of the bunch. Bush could very well work into the rotation next season. Even with the miss on Moses and Johnnie Lee, who I think will be out of the league in a year or two, (Henderson was a Cable project pick) still a decent draft IMO.

Crow

01-13-2008, 06:16 PM

The thing that takes some sweetness off of things is our 3rd round...

3.65 Quinton Moses
3.91 Mario Henderson
3.99 Johnny Lee Higgins
4.100 Michael Bush

The fuck man?

Doesn't exactly set my bloomers on fire... Bush was a project all the way, kind of a lotto ticket, but hopefully at least one of these remaining stiffs will develop into something.

Absolutly no help from any of these people this season though :rolleyes:

I've noticed something that kinda cracks me up. The same people who blame JLH for not getting on the field ahead of trash like BMW, Chris McFoy, etc are the same ones blaming Kiffin for leaving that turd McCown under center. Funny how that knife can cut either way depending on the player.

I've said it 100 times, 50 times to Bones. Higgins is a rookie WR. Expecting much of anything was a little unfair to him.

Kiffin himself took the blame there for not giving the kid the reps or the opportunities to show what he can do. To me, that implies that JLH was an Al pick and another guy Kiffin didn't want. Kiff has shown a real tendency to play his guys over Al's regardless of performance. I think Higgins may be a victim of the rift between Kiffin and Al.

Hopefully, he'll get his shot next year. I think he's got the potential to be a very good slot receiver.

Crow

01-13-2008, 06:21 PM

Not to mention Logan Mankins
I mentioned him.

...and Johnnie Lee, who I think will be out of the league in a year or two.
Based on what, exactly?

I don't understand the hate this kid gets.

Okay. He's probably never going to be a return guy at this level. So?

This dude may be my new underdog. Kiffin wouldn't give him a chance. You lot are already writing him off. When he breaks out, I'm going to talk shit about all of you.

Byron2112

01-13-2008, 06:38 PM

007

01-13-2008, 06:46 PM

The guy was invisible.

Didnt show any speed or burst, and doesnt have the size to seperate.

There was a reason he fell behind guys like Rice, Figurs, Laurent Robinson, Mike Walker, Jacoby Jones, James Jones, Jason Hill, Paul Williams and Steve Smith...He isnt very good.

SoCalRaider

01-13-2008, 06:56 PM

Belichick really doesn't spend as many high draft picks on line players as you'd think.

Bro... are you serious? From 1999 - 2005, Belichick spent 7 straight 1st round draft picks on linemen...

http://www.drafthistory.com/team-round/patriots.html

He just has had better success with the ones he did take.
Sure he's had great success... but that doesn't hide the fact that he spent 7 consecutive 1st round picks on linemen...

The way I see it, it's very realistic to assume that we won't get a shot at Dorsey or Long.
Agreed... I'd actually be shocked if Long and Dorsey don't go 1-2. I couldn't be more excited that Parcells is drafting #1.... this is our best chance to trade up and take Long.

Hypothetically, that leaves us to choose between McFadden and Ellis. I'm fine with taking whoever the "powers that be" deem to be the better player... or, at least I would be if I had any confidence in our scouting department.

The "powers that be" are dummies (apologies to TG for calling them bad names)... The only people I have any confidence in is our scouting department. It's a shame they have as much say in the draft as I do...

That said, I'll laugh my ass off at the team that takes McFadden. Sucker pick of the draft. His game will translate about as well to the pro game as Rocket Ismail's did. Same physique, same type player. It's a good thing he got arrested outside that gay bar... otherwise he would have been a threat to sneak into the top 10...

CrossBones

01-13-2008, 07:02 PM

Meanwhile the Raiders drafted three corners and safety in the first round. Not that they aren't important but we see the results. The old adage of winning games in the trenches seems to be coming into focus.

Crow

01-13-2008, 07:22 PM

I think people are disappointed becasue he didn't do jackshit this season.

It's not about being a rookie and not setting the world on fire... the guy did nothing, nada.

I can't recall if he caught a single pass?

It's not that I don't want to give the kid a chance, but I don't have to be happy about his disappearance either.

He caught a few passes. Kiffin just wouldn't put him on the field. He had JLH and the Big Dummy's asses glued to the bench.
The guy was invisible.

Didnt show any speed or burst, and doesnt have the size to seperate.

There was a reason he fell behind guys like Rice, Figurs, Laurent Robinson, Mike Walker, Jacoby Jones, James Jones, Jason Hill, Paul Williams and Steve Smith...He isnt very good.
Thank you, Charlie Casserly. :rolleyes:

gst8

01-13-2008, 07:40 PM

SoCalRaider Wrote:Bro... are you serious? From 1999 - 2005, Belichick spent 7 straight 1st round draft picks on linemen...

http://www.drafthistory.com/team-round/patriots.html

First, Belichick didn't even coach the Patriots in 1999. Second, calling a TE a "lineman" is kinda stretching it. Grahm and Watson were both brought in to be weapons on offense... not purely as blockers.

SoCalRaider Wrote:
Sure he's had great success... but that doesn't hide the fact that he spent 7 consecutive 1st round picks on linemen...

He's spent 7 picks in the top two rounds on lineman since he's been with the Patriots. The Jag's have spent 6. Are you telling me that the difference in that game was the one extra lineman Belichick drafted?

raiderfreak7

01-13-2008, 07:40 PM

I mentioned him.

Based on what, exactly?

I don't understand the hate this kid gets.

Okay. He's probably never going to be a return guy at this level. So?

This dude may be my new underdog. Kiffin wouldn't give him a chance. You lot are already writing him off. When he breaks out, I'm going to talk shit about all of you.

A quick search for rookie receivers gives me this....http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=RECEIVING&season=2007&seasonType=REG&experience=0&tabSeq=0&qualified=true&Submit=Find

Not a very impressive batch outside of Bowe.

RaiderIVlife

01-13-2008, 07:44 PM

Even if only 2/4 of thes guys (Bowie, JHL, Bush, Henderson) become solid players, this draft is a a grand success. BTW, I almost think that Henderson is more important to the Raiders than Bush (shrug).

Miller & Russell will start in 2008. Richardson & O'Neil are already solid contributors with a legitimate shot at starting as well. Clemons, assuming he is re-signed, more or less nulifies the Moses mistake.

I'd still like to see Dorsey fall to us as I regard DT as our single biggest need, but Long, Ellis, McFadden? On paper, we can't go wrong with any of those guys.

BigTron

01-13-2008, 08:02 PM

Its funny how everything that goes wrong is AL doing. If a player stinks Al wanted him, if he is good Kiffin wanted him. Nobody knows shit about the topic and its funny when people speak on it like they were in the draft room. No suprise the media does the same thing some of the fans do. I just want to hear the Al haters give some credit when its due. The same old song and dance is old. Im not acting like im 100% thrilled with everything Al Davis does either so dont get me wrong.

It went form Al Davis doesnt draft QB's early to
Al Davis made Kiffin take JaMarcus against his will...

hawaiianboy

01-13-2008, 08:08 PM

I've said it 100 times, 50 times to Bones. Higgins is a rookie WR. Expecting much of anything was a little unfair to him.

If this hedge applies to Higgins, shouldn't it apply to Mario Henderson and especially in spades to Jay Richardson?... I personally thought Richardson showed some flow... Played smart, played hard, showed potential, yet no love from too many...

RaiderIVlife

01-13-2008, 08:17 PM

If this hedge applies to Higgins, shouldn't it apply to Mario Henderson and especially in spades to Jay Richardson?... I personally thought Richardson showed some flow... Played smart, played hard, showed potential, yet no love from too many...

I'd Oren O'Neil was as impressive as Richardson, Miller looks like the solid, all-around TE that we've lacked for years. It was nice to see him and Russell really get into a groove at the end. Me thinks that the phrase, "Russell to Miller" will be oft repeated over the next few years.....

It's impossible to judge the draft after one season, but I see far more reasons for optimism than pessimism IMHO.

Crow

01-13-2008, 08:38 PM

A quick search for rookie receivers gives me this....http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=RECEIVING&season=2007&seasonType=REG&experience=0&tabSeq=0&qualified=true&Submit=Find

Not a very impressive batch outside of Bowe.

I'd put Gonzalez on the "impressive" list, especially considering how quickly he was pressed into a starting role.

The rookies that did produce were mostly the ones forced into starting or played for pass happy offenses. With Porter and Curry here, and Kiffin's affinity for Ace and I sets, no #3 WR was going to get much play here. Nevermind the fact that we were rotating 3 duds at QB.

But, that sort of thing is too deep for some people to wrap their heads around.

If this hedge applies to Higgins, shouldn't it apply to Mario Henderson and especially in spades to Jay Richardson?... I personally thought Richardson showed some flow... Played smart, played hard, showed potential, yet no love from too many...

Henderson basically got called a lazy piece of crap by his position coach, which echoed his pre-draft scouting reports. Hard to give a guy slack when lack of effort is his main flaw.

I think Richardson's overall lack of athletic ability and low ceiling keep him from being viewed as more than a reserve. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't think he has the talent to get much better.

In Higgins' case, I've yet to see, read, or hear anything that resembled a lack of desire on his part. The athleticism is there. He's just young and green, not unlike our Big Dummy.

hawaiianboy

01-13-2008, 09:34 PM

I think Richardson's overall lack of athletic ability and low ceiling keep him from being viewed as more than a reserve. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't think he has the talent to get much better.

We'll see, but from what I saw I'd disagree... I don't know if I'd cap a ceiling on a guy that's 6'6 280 that plays with the kind of snap to whistle effort he showed... Hell, effort took Aaron Kampman from not meriting a combine invite out of college, to rising to being just solid at best his first couple of years, to what we see now...

I don't think he's going to be the kind of end that finishes downhill, but I see no reason why he can't give you what you get from a Mike Rucker or Reggie Heyward... I think all the playing time he got is going to let him play quicker from here on out... He may eventually settle in as a strongside end, but I think he's a starter in this league...

SoCalRaider

01-13-2008, 10:06 PM

SoCalRaider Wrote:

First, Belichick didn't even coach the Patriots in 1999.

You're right. 2000 was his first draft... my bad.... but still... six 1st round lineman in his first 5 drafts. That's pretty compelling if you ask me.

Second, calling a TE a "lineman" is kinda stretching it. Grahm and Watson were both brought in to be weapons on offense... not purely as blockers.

We'll agree to disagree. According to THE SoCal ACADEMY OF FOOTBALL GREATNESS, if you line up on the line of scrimmage in either a 3 or 4 point point stance... you are a lineman. This is a 1st principle at THE ACADEMY!

SoCalRaider Wrote:

He's spent 7 picks in the top two rounds on lineman since he's been with the Patriots. The Jag's have spent 6. Are you telling me that the difference in that game was the one extra lineman Belichick drafted?

Not really... I'm just sayin... the reason the Patriots are about to become the greatest football dynasty in the history of Western Civilization (in the salary cap era no less) can be traced back to Belichick's philosophy of using top picks on lineman...

The Jags aren't even in the same sentence as the Pats...

On a side note... here's my random thought of the day... For all the shit we've taken for trading Moss... the one good thing to come of it is the Pats are probably the only team keeping NorvAl from leading the Chargers to a Super Bowl. If I had to pick the lesser of 2 evils, I would much rather see Moss lead the Pats to another title, than stomach the circus that would take place down here if NorvAl led the Bolts and Tomlinson's cry-baby ass to the promise land... For what it's worth.........

007

01-13-2008, 10:10 PM

Its funny how guys like Richardson and Henderson need to be replaced, yet we've got some airheads in here comfortable with Johnnie Lee Higgins.

Makes me wonder who actually watches Raider games or college football.

SoCalRaider

01-13-2008, 10:28 PM

:drumroll:

Perhaps somebody needs a nap. It seems so. And again, I think I lost the point in the name-calling here. :mad:

Madturk

01-14-2008, 05:40 AM

I forgot about Jay Richardson. He did flash some ability in spurts. My beef with JLH, is that aside from the one return in pre-season, he really showed nothing. He was lost on pr coverage all season long. The guy looks absolutely scared out there. He was drafted for this supposed 4.3/4.4 speed but honestly I didn't see any of that explosiveness this season. Well I'm hope I'm wrong about the guy and he makes liars out of all us but I'm not feeling it.

RaiderIVlife

01-14-2008, 07:29 AM

I'd put Gonzalez on the "impressive" list, especially considering how quickly he was pressed into a starting role.

The rookies that did produce were mostly the ones forced into starting or played for pass happy offenses. With Porter and Curry here, and Kiffin's affinity for Ace and I sets, no #3 WR was going to get much play here. Nevermind the fact that we were rotating 3 duds at QB.

But, that sort of thing is too deep for some people to wrap their heads around.

Henderson basically got called a lazy piece of crap by his position coach, which echoed his pre-draft scouting reports. Hard to give a guy slack when lack of effort is his main flaw.

I think Richardson's overall lack of athletic ability and low ceiling keep him from being viewed as more than a reserve. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't think he has the talent to get much better.

In Higgins' case, I've yet to see, read, or hear anything that resembled a lack of desire on his part. The athleticism is there. He's just young and green, not unlike our Big Dummy.

Gee Crow, with your unasailable opinion's, I guess their is no need for a discussion forum. All Hail You.

Speaking or wrapping your head around things, you do realize that Kiffin would prefer to pass more often, but we simply lacked the personell and pass protection to run his desired offense. The #3 WR in this offense should, at least in theory, get more "play" in 2008 and if you think JLH didn't get play simply because of Kiffin, I've got some nice vacation property in Tikrit for you. JLH didn't see much PT because he was clearly a liability on the field. I was happy when this guy didn't fumble or muff the ball. Any positive yardage was simply icing on the cake.

Regarding Richardson, I think he has Bobby Hamilton written all over him. Not too shabby IMO.

RaiderIVlife

01-14-2008, 07:34 AM

massraider

01-14-2008, 08:20 AM

I've noticed something that kinda cracks me up. The same people who blame JLH for not getting on the field ahead of trash like BMW, Chris McFoy, etc are the same ones blaming Kiffin for leaving that turd McCown under center. Funny how that knife can cut either way depending on the player.

Boy, no kidding.

By the way, people in glass houses:

Kiffin himself took the blame there for not giving the kid the reps or the opportunities to show what he can do. To me, that implies that JLH was an Al pick and another guy Kiffin didn't want.

Would love to see the leaps of logic that resulted in this conclusion. I especially like the "another" part. Is there a master list of players that Kiffin didn't want somewhere that I can peruse, or can I just assume it's any player that hasn't succeeded?

Raider Bill

01-14-2008, 10:33 AM

The same people who blame JLH for not getting on the field ahead of trash like BMW, Chris McFoy, etc are the same ones blaming Kiffin for leaving that turd McCown under center. Funny how that knife can cut either way depending on the player.

You kinda need to know who's going to start and get the reps at QB early in the week.

It should be a lot easier for a WR to overtake someone on the depth chart and get on the field.

JLH did nothing to distinguish himself when he did get opportunity.

007

01-14-2008, 11:09 AM

^What he said^

CrossBones

01-14-2008, 11:28 AM

You kinda need to know who's going to start and get the reps at QB early in the week.

It should be a lot easier for a WR to overtake someone on the depth chart and get on the field.

JLH did nothing to distinguish himself when he did get opportunity.Been saying that all season. JLH, right now, is a huge bust. The guy did NOTHING. I mean NOTHING. If we could have at least seen a glimmer it would have been good. Guy probably showed squat in practice confirming to the coach there was no reason to put him in a game.

He's a rookie? So is Miller. :confused:

Raider Bill

01-14-2008, 11:38 AM

It's a bigger step up in class from the WAC to the NFL, than it is from the PAC 10 to the NFL. USC is practically a Pro team. .:eek:

massraider

01-14-2008, 12:53 PM

JLH needs time, like most young WRs.

I have no idea if he'll be any good. He didn't show much his rookie year. That, plus 2 bucks, will get you on the subway. The list of rookie WRs that didn't show much is pretty long, and a lot of them went to better programs that UTEP.

One thing I was encouraged about last year: Many of his highlights were on underneath stuff. He wasn't just James Jett, flying down the field. He may be fast but his game is closer to Wes Welker than Alvin Harper. He seemed like a really fast possession guy, from the limited stuff I saw. Maybe Lav Coles is a better comparison (after all, Welker is a good return man :pound:).

SoCalRaider

01-14-2008, 07:17 PM

SoCal - A choice between the *Pats & Chargers is like a choice between Hitler & Stalin. Lesser of 2 evils indeed.

I guess I marginally agree with you since 'Charger Fan' is the least deserving group of fans that I can think of. Living in LA, I've learned to loath these so-called 'fans'. They are the very definition of bandwagoners.

On the NFC we have Green Bay and a New York team. What choices. I doubt I'll even watch football again until the Raiders open the preseason. Seriously.

I couldn't imagine stepping foot into a sports bar ever again if the Chargers were to win a Super Bowl. The only football team to ever win a title out here has been the Raiders... It would be unbearable if Bolt fan actually had something to be proud of on Sunday.

As for the NFC, I'm pretty amazed how much momentum the Giants carried from playing the Pats so close in the regular season finale. Talking it up with a lot of Pack fans out here and it seems they would rather have played the Cowboys in Dallas. There are a lot of people who think the Giants are better equipped to play in Lambeau than the Packers... and with Li'l Manning peaking right now, he may be the best QB on the field this weekend.

I'm putting my money on a very boring Pats - Giants rematch... though I'd much rather watch Moss kick the shit out of the team that really wanted him... and ruin Packer fan's offseason... again.

BigTron

01-14-2008, 07:48 PM

I couldn't imagine stepping foot into a sports bar ever again if the Chargers were to win a Super Bowl. The only football team to ever win a title out here has been the Raiders... It would be unbearable if Bolt fan actually had something to be proud of on Sunday.

As for the NFC, I'm pretty amazed how much momentum the Giants carried from playing the Pats so close in the regular season finale. Talking it up with a lot of Pack fans out here and it seems they would rather have played the Cowboys in Dallas. There are a lot of people who think the Giants are better equipped to play in Lambeau than the Packers... and with Li'l Manning peaking right now, he may be the best QB on the field this weekend.

I'm putting my money on a very boring Pats - Giants rematch... though I'd much rather watch Moss kick the shit out of the team that really wanted him... and ruin Packer fan's offseason... again.

Really? Eli better than Farve? Farve looked GREAT this weekend. Diggin them out of that 14 point hole. Eli is playing well but Farve at home is the best QB IMO.

SoCalRaider

01-14-2008, 09:43 PM

Really? Eli better than Farve? Farve looked GREAT this weekend. Diggin them out of that 14 point hole. Eli is playing well but Farve at home is the best QB IMO.

Which Favre are you going to get next weekend? If you get the bad Favre... Li'l Manning is the better QB... Ballgame.

BigTron

01-14-2008, 10:14 PM

Which Favre are you going to get next weekend? If you get the bad Favre... Li'l Manning is the better QB... Ballgame.

You know there's a bad Eli who might show up too. Then its ballgame Packers.

SoCalRaider

01-14-2008, 10:22 PM

You know there's a bad Eli who might show up too. Then its ballgame Packers.

As I mentioned in my previous post... Li'l Manning is peaking right now. A lot of momentum since the Pats game. More likely to see the bad Favre...

BigTron

01-14-2008, 10:26 PM

Eli has never been in an NFC championship tho. Favre will more likely be up to the challenge. Eli might regress back into the guy the players didnt respect early THIS season. He is still proving himself where as a leader like Favre can throw 2 early picks and come back and beat you in the 4th. Just my opinion tho. Both QB's have been playing solid ball in the playoffs. Lets not forget it's in GB and they have some players in the secondary in Woodson and Harris.

Crow

01-15-2008, 02:54 AM

We'll see, but from what I saw I'd disagree... I don't know if I'd cap a ceiling on a guy that's 6'6 280 that plays with the kind of snap to whistle effort he showed... Hell, effort took Aaron Kampman from not meriting a combine invite out of college, to rising to being just solid at best his first couple of years, to what we see now...

I don't think he's going to be the kind of end that finishes downhill, but I see no reason why he can't give you what you get from a Mike Rucker or Reggie Heyward... I think all the playing time he got is going to let him play quicker from here on out... He may eventually settle in as a strongside end, but I think he's a starter in this league...
I don't see it. But, as with any situation like this, I'd love to be wrong.

Its funny how guys like Richardson and Henderson need to be replaced, yet we've got some airheads in here comfortable with Johnnie Lee Higgins.

Makes me wonder who actually watches Raider games or college football.
Coming from SuperScout007, that's worth a chuckle.

I don't recall Higgins getting bashed by his position coach. Henderson? Well...

Also, no one is saying Higgins should be a starter. So how does his situation compare to Richardson's?

Gee Crow, with your unasailable opinion's, I guess their is no need for a discussion forum. All Hail You.
Another real winner. :rolleyes:

Speaking or wrapping your head around things, you do realize that Kiffin would prefer to pass more often, but we simply lacked the personell and pass protection to run his desired offense.
He told you this, did he? Odd that I've yet to hear him even imply such a thing. Quite the opposite, actually.

The #3 WR in this offense should, at least in theory, get more "play" in 2008 and if you think JLH didn't get play simply because of Kiffin, I've got some nice vacation property in Tikrit for you.
So, Kiffin just made the whole thing up, right? That whole "It's my fault for not getting him the reps he needed to develop" comment was, what? Just to hear himself talk?

Seems like Kiffin isn't a fan of pulling his punches. If Higgins was the reason Higgins wasn't on the field, history shows that Kiffin would have said as much.

Every week, Kiffin would say of Russell: "He's not ready."

When he commented on Higgins, he came right out and said "My bad."

So, i guess Kiffin shoots straight except where Higgins is concerned.

Maybe you actually believe you have some property in Tikrit.

You and 007 should get a place there together.

JLH didn't see much PT because he was clearly a liability on the field. I was happy when this guy didn't fumble or muff the ball. Any positive yardage was simply icing on the cake.
Again, Kiffin told you this, right?

A liability on STs? Sure. That much was obvious. On offense? Um...

Were you high when you posted this? What did Higgins do on offense to be considered a liability? When the ball was thrown to him, he caught it. Did he fumble, or deflect a pass into a defender's hands? Maybe someone can refresh my memory, because right now, it looks to me like you're just making shit up.

Regarding Richardson, I think he has Bobby Hamilton written all over him. Not too shabby IMO.
I can see him reaching Hamilton status. So, like I said, a low ceiling.

I loved Hamilton. Hell, he's a Southern Miss guy. Had to homer for him. But he was a run stuffer and not much else. Not exactly what you'd consider a quality starter, unless you're running a 34. If we were, then yeah. I could see Richardson being that same sort of guy.

Boy, no kidding.

By the way, people in glass houses:
There's a neighborhood full of shattered houses around here, in case you haven't noticed.

Would love to see the leaps of logic that resulted in this conclusion. I especially like the "another" part. Is there a master list of players that Kiffin didn't want somewhere that I can peruse, or can I just assume it's any player that hasn't succeeded?
So then you explain to me why Kiffin didn't play the man, or Rhodes for that matter. Explain to me why Kiffin took the blame for Higgins' lack of production by admitting that he didn't get the man the practice reps or the field time. Kiffin isn't shy about publicly kicking a player in the nuts. Why not do the same to Higgins?

You're so smart. Explain it to me.

You kinda need to know who's going to start and get the reps at QB early in the week.

It should be a lot easier for a WR to overtake someone on the depth chart and get on the field.
Not if he's not getting any reps in practice.

JLH did nothing to distinguish himself when he did get opportunity.
So a rookie WR who got a minimal number of reps in practice didn't set the world on fire when he finally saw the field. Imagine that. Next you'll be telling me that a rookie QB who misses all of camp and preseason won't be ready to play any time soon.

Oh. Wait.

JLH needs time, like most young WRs.

I have no idea if he'll be any good. He didn't show much his rookie year. That, plus 2 bucks, will get you on the subway. The list of rookie WRs that didn't show much is pretty long, and a lot of them went to better programs that UTEP.
That seems to be the type of common sense that's lacking around here. Nice to see it make an appearance.

One thing I was encouraged about last year: Many of his highlights were on underneath stuff. He wasn't just James Jett, flying down the field. He may be fast but his game is closer to Wes Welker than Alvin Harper. He seemed like a really fast possession guy, from the limited stuff I saw. Maybe Lav Coles is a better comparison (after all, Welker is a good return man :pound:).
Cold. :D

I'm not going to make any comparisons this soon. Every scouting report made mention of his lack of fear working the middle. For a small speedster, that's definitely encouraging. Of his 6 catches, 6 were underneath routes, IIRC. If whoever happens to be coaching this team in the coming years can learn the boy to run a good slant route, there's really no reason to believe he can't become a good YAC receiver out of the slot. Maybe, in a perfect world, even a Greg Jennings type.

Curry blew it as a return guy too. A whole lotta shortsighted people wanted his ass run out of town on a rail. I'm seeing a lot of that same sort of brilliance here again. Should be damn amusing to see those same superscouts get their yaps shut again.

Raider Bill

01-15-2008, 05:29 AM

We carried 4 wide recievers much of the year.. I think it's pretty safe to assume Higgins got some reps in practice.

CrossBones

01-15-2008, 06:13 AM

As I mentioned in my previous post... Li'l Manning is peaking right now. A lot of momentum since the Pats game. More likely to see the bad Favre...Don't you think Favre is peaking after the way he dismantled Seattle?

007

01-15-2008, 10:30 AM

We carried 4 wide recievers much of the year.. I think it's pretty safe to assume Higgins got some reps in practice.

Buh, buh but...Young wide receivers dont produce. He needs time to develop. :rolleyes:

Guys like Rice, Laurent Robinson, James Jones, CJ, Bowe and Gonzalez this year and Colston, Holmes and Jennings last year show you can make an impact at the position early.

Hell the guy lost playing time to Mike Williams, Chris McFoy and Tim Dwight.

Those guys couldnt make 3 quarters of NFL rosters.

SoCalRaider

01-15-2008, 07:52 PM

Don't you think Favre is peaking after the way he dismantled Seattle?

I think Favre peaked early in the season. He has been somewhat erratic after getting his lip gloss smeared in the Cowboys game.

007

01-15-2008, 08:42 PM

Favre doesnt need to peak in Lambeau.

He needs to play smart, limit his turnovers and use Ryan Grant. A lot.

He's played well all season, minus 2-3 games. I fully assume he'll play solid this weekend.

raiderfreak7

01-17-2008, 10:32 PM

We re-signed Joe Ech.

(Update: Thanks to the e-mailer who told me Adimchinobe Echemandu, who was the Raiders best running back during training camp, has signed a contract. Echemandu, who immediately took to the zone-blocking system, was cut late in the season by Houston).

http://www.ibabuzz.com/raidersblog/2008/01/17/position-analysis-running-backs/

007

01-17-2008, 10:57 PM

Haha, atta boy.

He is a killer preseason back.

massraider

01-18-2008, 06:45 AM

Haha, atta boy.

He is a killer preseason back.

Bush, Fargas, Echemandu. If those were our backs opening day, I could live with that.

jatfly

01-18-2008, 07:42 AM

just a comment on the title of this thread......Maybe we shouldn't stand on Mike Bush since right now he is stil rehabbing and a little fragile........I KILL ME!

No really I like Bush but need to see how he performs at this level. If we can get Huggy to come back at a resonable price and have Rhoades and Bush back there as well. If that senerio happens we don't draft McFadden......

BigTron

01-19-2008, 12:58 AM

I like Michael Bush as much as the next guy, and even saw some of his college games and wondered what he would be like IN S&B. With that said i fully expect next year to be tough for Bush because he has to learn to play again. He has been off the field for a very long time. I hope he bounces back fast but to be safe id wouldnt pencil him in past #3 on the depth chart.

SoCalRaider

01-20-2008, 09:52 PM

and with Li'l Manning peaking right now, he may be the best QB on the field this weekend.

I'm putting my money on a very boring Pats - Giants rematch...

Man... if this shit keeps up, I'm going to take up forecasting football games on a full time basis... If the Pats go 19-0 in 2 weekends, my '07 winnings would break 6 figures.... Is this shit supposed to be taxed?

Really? Eli better than Farve?

.... By a mile

Eli has never been in an NFC championship tho.

Irrelevant...

Favre will more likely be up to the challenge.

That's when the bad Favre tends to show up... those picks today were vintage....

Eli might regress back into the guy the players didnt respect early THIS season. He is still proving himself where as a leader like Favre can throw 2 early picks and come back and beat you in the 4th.

Play the percentages... and go with the hot QB bro....

Lets not forget it's in GB

The Giants are and have been a better cold weather team than the Pack this year.... This was too obvious after the Bears game. Plus, the Giants supposedly hold the NFL record for most consecutive road wins......

and they have some players in the secondary in Woodson and Harris.

To be fair, the Pack got outcoached today. The decision to keep their inferior CB on Burress the entire game was the kind of abortion that I'd expect from an Al Davis coached defense, not a conference championship team.

Wood should have been covering Burress from the outset.... not sure how much of a difference it would have made since the Giants smashed the Pack in every phase of the game (with the exception of kicking field goals)... but that matchup was a disaster from the get go.....