Oakland drops ball on Russell

[jatfly]

Oakland drops ball on Russell
Contra Costa Times
Article Launched: 12/17/2007 02:59:50 AM PST


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Dec 17:

SO WE GOT to see The Second Coming of JaMarcus Russell, otherwise known by the Raiders as "Our Franchise."

He claimed he learned "a lot" in his second NFL action, a three-series stint that merely interrupted Sunday's 21-14 loss to the Indianapolis Colts.

He should have learned a lot more.

He should have had a chance to run the two-minute drill before halftime.

He should have played more than the 11 snaps he got in the third quarter.

He even should have been out there in the final minutes of the Raiders' comeback bid.

"I wish more could have happened," Russell said, "but sometimes that's how things go."

He was going, going, gone to the bench after each of his three possessions ended in a punt.

How's that supposed to help his confidence? Asked if he wanted to stay in the game longer, Russell replied: "Oh yeah. Being a very competitive guy, I wish I could have stayed in there more. But Josh (McCown) has a lot of game-time experience, and the way the game was flowing, I'm pretty sure coach wanted him in there."

Russell's right. Coach Lane Kiffin explained that he wanted to win Sunday and felt that McCown gave the Raiders (4-10, mind you) the best chance to win.

Only the Raiders didn't win. They lost. And Russell lost out on opportunities that could have enhanced his NFL growth.

That's no indictment against McCown, who started his eighth game and engineered a gutty comeback try, not to mention a 991/2-yard touchdown drive in the second quarter.

But why limit Russell so much? Because you don't want to hurt his confidence? Please. He doesn't lack confidence. He oozes it. Unconfident guys don't drape diamonds around their neck, wrist and ears. He just lacks playing time.

Imagine what a boost in confidence he could have had if he was given a legitimate chance to be Sunday's hero.

Of course, this is a long-term plan the Raiders are employing. Russell's to be their hero for years to come.

Next year, however, he'll be asked to run that two-minute drill and lead comeback attempts in meaningful games. This one Sunday simply factored into the Colts' playoff plans, not the Raiders'.

When Russell debuted two weeks ago -- two second-quarter drives against the Denver Broncos -- he brought tremendous energy to McAfee Coliseum, and he teased us by showing off that big right arm.

Against the Colts, his entrance again brought the crowd to its feet. He attempted five passes and completed just two for 10 yards. When practice-squad call-up Chris McFoy whiffed on Russell's 15-yard rocket over the middle on third-and-10, that ended Russell's first series.

The following two possessions were three-and-out efforts, so Kiffin reinserted McCown.

Kiffin considered holding out Russell altogether, "but we had made such a commitment that we were going to play him and develop him and give him some snaps.

"Did that cost us from winning the game? I don't know that. I won't be able to answer that question for you. It was something that we decided to do and regardless we were going to make sure that we played him. Last time it helped, it created energy. This time it didn't."

So what would have happened if "some snaps" led to some touchdowns?

"If you draft a guy to be the future and he starts acting like the future, then you leave him in there. That's just my opinion," McCown said. "If he's playing at a high level and doing the same thing, leading touchdowns or whatever, I guess you leave him in there. We'll cross that bridge when we get there. But it's been good for him."

You know what else has been good? The Raiders offense.

The running game has been quite charming behind 1,000-yard back Justin Fargas and the occasional cameo from Dominic Rhodes.

The linemen are protecting so well, they haven't allowed a sack in three straight games. Really. It's true.

And it makes for an inviting environment to turn Russell loose.

"I'm a very confident guy," Russell said. "At times, you can get a little down on yourself. I'm pretty sure coach knows what he's doing. Whether he puts me in or takes me out, it doesn't matter. Because I'm going to go out there and help my team any way I can."

He should have been allowed to help out more Sunday. Maybe his third time out will be the charm we're all looking for from him.

Contact Cam Inman at cinman@bayareanewsgroup.com.



jatfly's judgement:

Hey I don't write the articles just re-post them.
I will say this I want the guy to suceed and need him to suceed. So what ever that takes. And lets' be honest it's not like we were winning every game this year....It's called Re-building for a reason....

[massraider]

This kind of second-guessing is as valid as any other opinion, I suppose.

[Rupert]

Who, at the time, thought Russell was going to lead us on a TD or even a FG drive? He was not playing well enough. Blame it on the plays, blame it on broken offensive rhythm. Whatever. The bottom line is it wasn't happening with Russell in there.

Sure it didn't happen with McCown in there either, but we had a better chance when he returned.

[CrossBones]

That article is BS. We were in that game against the World Champs. We got the lead in the fourth quarter and that clown wants to have the rookie in there? Screw him. I think Kiffin did it just right. I want the kid to play as much as the next guy but in rethinking this, the way we're doing it feels alright to me. I wanted to win that damn game. So it didn't work out. Can't fault coach for giving it 100%.

[RHC]

1. Russell should have been in there the entire second half. We still had a chance to beat them with Russell. But of course, you'd have to give the kid a chance to make plays, which obviously wasn't part of the plan.

2. He should start the next 2 games. But he won't and I have to seriously question Kiffin's judgement. Perhaps he's trying to build up his resume for the offseason by getting a win in these final games. Perhaps he's sticking it to Al for drafting a guy he didn't want. Perhaps he knows he's leaving the team and is so pissed he wants to set us back as much as he possibly can on his way out. Perhaps he's sticking it to Russell for holding out. Perhaps he's sticking it to the fans for daring to question his tactics.

Whatever the reason, it's just a flat-out bad use of valuable PT.

[Rupert]

2. He should start the next 2 games. But he won't and I have to seriously question Kiffin's judgement. Perhaps he's trying to build up his resume for the offseason by getting a win in these final games. Perhaps he's sticking it to Al for drafting a guy he didn't want. Perhaps he knows he's leaving the team and is so pissed he wants to set us back as much as he possibly can on his way out. Perhaps he's sticking it to Russell for holding out. Perhaps he's sticking it to the fans for daring to question his tactics.
Man, you're not making a lot of sense there. Let's take it point by point shall we?

"[Russell] should start the next 2 games." Why? Just because? He hasn't earned the start. Okay, but there's precedent. McCown deserves to be the starter, BUT he's not under contract to us for next season. If we want to win games next season he might be the quickest route to it. Will he take us to the playoffs? It's possible. Will he do much in the playoffs. I doubt it. Okay, he's a poor-man's Gannon that might just one day become a Gannon. I'll give him that much. But here he's nothing more than a placeholder for Russell. So there's some push to start Russell.

But he won't and I have to seriously question Kiffin's judgement. He probably won't, that's true. I could see him getting that start in week 17. That would make sense. He might get some 2-minute reps this week. That would give him enough of a round sampling to let him start. That's a possibility. I'm not sure how likely it is, but it's possible. I wouldn't even be surprised to see him start week 17 and not play more than a couple series.

Perhaps he's trying to build up his resume for the offseason by getting a win in these final games. I can only think of one reason to try to win the games. Well I can think of around 60+. The players and the organization. The players have to know the coach is putting them in position to win week after week. When they KNOW it, when they believe it, they'll sell out for the coach. When they don't believe it, they sell the coach out (like last season). Unlike Russell's first couple series against Denver, I saw the team want McCown back on the field against Indy. They want to win in the worst way. They do NOT want to go through the motions.

Perhaps he's sticking it to Al for drafting a guy he didn't want. That's going to help him how? Sour his relationship with Al? I know no-one else will think too much of it, but if he'll stick it to the guy who gave him a shot, what's he going to do to the next guy who gives him a job and upsets his fragile little ego? People would stay away if this was the case. Kiffin's going to keep it professional or he'll lose people's interest.

Perhaps he knows he's leaving the team and is so pissed he wants to set us back as much as he possibly can on his way out. See above. No-one would be interested in such a tempermental and petty guy.

Perhaps he's sticking it to Russell for holding out. Players have to trust a coach to sell out for him. If he'll do this to a superstar, what's he going to do to chump change? It's a recipe for disaster.

Perhaps he's sticking it to the fans for daring to question his tactics. Yeah, that's what he's doing? He's sticking it to you, that's obvious, but he doesn't even know who you are, much less do any of us know he wants to stick it to you. Come on.

:pound::nono:

[RHC]

Man, you're not making a lot of sense there. Let's take it point by point shall we?Okie-dokie.
"[Russell] should start the next 2 games." Why? Just because? He hasn't earned the start.He earned it by being the future of our franchise and by virtue of the fact that our season is toast. He needs the experience. I thought that was the obvious impetus behind my comment. My tune hasn't changed for months.

Of course everyone wants to win. So go out there and win with Russell. There's absolutely NOTHING that says we can't win with Russell. Why you seem to think that Josh By-God McCown is some kind of monster upgrade over even a green Russell is beyond me.
Perhaps he's sticking it to the fans for daring to question his tactics. Yeah, that's what he's doing? He's sticking it to you, that's obvious, but he doesn't even know who you are, much less do any of us know he wants to stick it to you. Come on.Most of my speculation in #2 was tongue-in-cheek. However, the voice of the fans is loud and clear. He hears the boo's. He knows what the vast majority of Raider Nation thinks he should be doing. He's digging in his heels like a 4th-grader. He won't be seen as bowing to the demands of the fan base - or to the demands of Al Davis for that matter. More than one coach has been obstinate in this regard to the detriment of the team.

[Rupert]

RHC: Actually, Russell's performance has said we can't win with him, yet. Never said McCown was a monster upgrade, but I truly believe that if we had NOT given Russell those three series we'd have won the game. Of course anyone can speculate that we'd have choked down the stretch anyway. But I think we would have won if we hadn't put Russell in the game.

Sorry for reading #2 as bitter sarcasm rather than tongue-in-cheek. I wasn't at the stadium, and by the boo's I knew McCown was coming back in, but man I saw the offense respond to his being in. And despite the wasted three series with Russell in there, minus a bad no-call on pass interference, we'd have won the game anyway. I just see that as vindication of Kiffin's choice of QB. I think right now, based on their performance, the offense has more confidence with McCown under center. Yeah, that's purely subjective, but I think McCown's recent performance speaks for itself.

I think Kiffin has the team behind him, and I think he's lucky that McCown has started to perform. Hell, maybe it took the specter of Russell looming over him, maybe it took severe pain in his non-throwing hand. Whatever it was, McCown is performing now, and these guys seem to think they can win with him under center. I'd rather build off of that, as it seems Kiffin would as well. When the team has confidence, they can prop the rook up. When they don't they'd easily fall apart and drag him down with them.

Right now the offense seems to lose something with Russell under center. That will improve in time (so yeah, why not give him more time). The offense is just getting used to success. It's damned good for their morale, and falling apart while the rook gets his feet wet will be detrimental to their morale.

Only two games left and then the off-season, why worry about morale? When the guys are pumped to get back to work, they're going to work harder in the off-season, they're going to be more enthusiastic about participating in OTA's, and they'll be a step further along the development curve come the start of next season. I'm more pumped about that than I am about getting Russell a little more tune-up work.

This off-season will be telling for the club at QB. We'll have to add at least one vet, and it could be McCown coming back. Russell will have every opportunity to win the job outright, and Kiffin will probably put his full weight behind getting Russell game-ready. I see winning as far more valuable to the team's future than getting Russell a game-full of snaps.

[Crow]

Anyone else wonder if we would have beaten the Colts had we not put Russell in at all?

[massraider]

Anyone else wonder if we would have beaten the Colts had we not put Russell in at all?

no



123456789

[Crow]

Well, ya gotta admit. It was a lot closer than anyone thought it would be. Those couple series might have made a difference.

Probably not. Just something to ponder.

[S and B Executioner]

I say we start Russell for the last 2 games. Ya, we were in the game against the Colts. But we are done for the season and the kids needs toget some game pressure experience NOW.

Start Russell

[Rupert]

You know, I've flip-flopped on this again. Blame it on McCown actually looking like a viable QB. Blame it on the pass protection holding up. Blame it on Russell not being able to run the entire playbook. Whatever. When it didn't look like anyone was worth a damn I was all for starting RUssell and getting him the reps. Now that the team is getting momentum with McCown under center I think benching him would be detrimental to team morale.

My biggest concern with Russell under center now is the defense has had a taste of being off the field for long stretches, and they've lost the futility they began to cultivate last season. I wouldn't put Russell in for more than a taste here and there unless he starts performing. If he takes one of his three series and scores, dude gets another shot.

It's that simple in my book. The team is begining to believe. I don't want them to lose that edge they've just begun to hone.

[Madturk]

Some valid points here. It would be nice to win one of the two remaining games. It's too bad the SD game wasn't for their playoff lives. It would be extra special to end the season on a positive note like we did under Gruden when we beat the Chiefs a few years back.

I like what we've been doing with bringing in JaRuss on select series. It would be really tough to start him at Jax, especially considering how well they've been playing as of late. SD's going to be no cakewalk either as they're playing for playoff seeding. I'm more inclined to slow roll him and see if he's able to move the team on any sustained drives like Rupert alludes to. Of course if we're getting blown out, then put him in indefinitely.

[Rupert]

Of course if we're getting blown out, then put him in indefinitely.
Gotta agree with that. Can't get much momentum when you're getting blown out.

[poptart]

Anyone else wonder if we would have beaten the Colts had we not put Russell in at all?

It's possible.

The three 'drives' he QBed didn't amount to squat.

Perhaps the team might have added points -- or field position -- if McKlown had been left in.

[RaiderDestiny]

You know, I've flip-flopped on this again. Blame it on McCown actually looking like a viable QB. Blame it on the pass protection holding up. Blame it on Russell not being able to run the entire playbook. Whatever. When it didn't look like anyone was worth a damn I was all for starting RUssell and getting him the reps. Now that the team is getting momentum with McCown under center I think benching him would be detrimental to team morale.

My biggest concern with Russell under center now is the defense has had a taste of being off the field for long stretches, and they've lost the futility they began to cultivate last season. I wouldn't put Russell in for more than a taste here and there unless he starts performing. If he takes one of his three series and scores, dude gets another shot.

It's that simple in my book. The team is begining to believe. I don't want them to lose that edge they've just begun to hone.

What do we gain by winning the last 2 games? Play the rookie, get him game experience when it does not matter in a game time situation. I truly see no value in starting McCown even if we win. What do we gain for the future? Half of the team probably won't be here next year. Play the people that will be.

[CrossBones]

What do we gain by winning the last 2 games? Play the rookie, get him game experience when it does not matter in a game time situation. I truly see no value in starting McCown even if we win. What do we gain for the future? Half of the team probably won't be here next year. Play the people that will be.Waht we would gain is that the players would buy into Kiffin's program even more. What we'd gain is the players wouldn't feel like it's hopeless in Oakland. We'd actually gain a lot going forward. Of course we'd lose draft position but then I really don't care. We can fuck up the #2 pick as well as the #8 pick. The players would love to play these last two games knowing that the coaching stafff hasn't given up on them and is trying to win as hard as they the players are.

So for the sake of the players who have gone through these last 4 years it would be a Godsend. Not saying we will or can win the last two but it would be great. Frankly I think we can take the Chargers at home. LT has to be held somewhat in check but look what we did to Addai. It can be done.

'Ya know --- just sayin'. :)

[Rupert]

Waht we would gain is that the players would buy into Kiffin's program even more. What we'd gain is the players wouldn't feel like it's hopeless in Oakland. We'd actually gain a lot going forward. Of course we'd lose draft position but then I really don't care. We can fuck up the #2 pick as well as the #8 pick. The players would love to play these last two games knowing that the coaching stafff hasn't given up on them and is trying to win as hard as they the players are.

So for the sake of the players who have gone through these last 4 years it would be a Godsend. Not saying we will or can win the last two but it would be great. Frankly I think we can take the Chargers at home. LT has to be held somewhat in check but look what we did to Addai. It can be done.

'Ya know --- just sayin'. :)
Couldn't REP you again so soon, but you get it. Man those players were pumped up when McCown joined the huddle in the second half. Maybe it was just the matchup. Maybe it was just the expanded playbook. But they really looked like a viable offense.

What was the problem on offense last season. Coach said, "Just do what I tell you." When the players asked "Why?" Coach couldn't tell them, "Because it works."

What can Kiffin tell the players with McCown out there? "Because it works." Why should the defense stay disciplined? Because the offense can score. You can't say that with Russell out there.

If our defense was complete AND top 10 across the board, we could ask them to suffer the rook's growing pains. We can't ask this defense to try to tough it out because it can't. They're just going to get hammered. They'll wear down. They'll give up those long 3rd downs. They'll give up the 2 point conversion. Etc. You can't tell them to bow their backs and stiffen up cuz they know it won't do any good.

That's what putting McCown out there does. Every series? Nope. He's not going to lead a scoring drive every series anyway. So we can definitely burn a couple or three drives on Russell. I wouldn't even be opposed to him starting the game and then hitting the bench, especially if he doesn't lead a scoring drive. Start the game and then the half? Not opposed if we're getting our a$$es handed to us.

They way it looks right now, Kiffin is handling it well.

[RHC]

You know, I've flip-flopped on this again. Blame it on McCown actually looking like a viable QB. Blame it on the pass protection holding up. Blame it on Russell not being able to run the entire playbook. Whatever. When it didn't look like anyone was worth a damn I was all for starting RUssell and getting him the reps. Now that the team is getting momentum with McCown under center I think benching him would be detrimental to team morale."Momentum" with only 2 games left??

That's about as useful and relevant as tits on a boar.

If you want useful momentum - to carry through to next season - you play Russell every snap from here on out.

Who gives a shit about this 2007 team's morale?? They've already burned this season to the ground. I care about the morale and development of guys like Russell and Mario Henderson, who will dictate our future level of success. I've been looking towards 2008 since we hit 8 losses.

You guys were all bitching about how we need a decent team around Russell before we play him. Now you're bitching about playing him because we have a decent team.

What a load of bullshit.

Fuck his so-called limited playbook. Let him go out there and bust some plays. Let him go out there and get hit. Let him go out and improvise and make plays. Let him go get his timing down. Let him cut it loose a few times.

[Rupert]

RHC: Who the hell are you talking to? You quote me and then talk about other guys' opinions. Whatever "Coach Dauber".

[CrossBones]

Well I see what Crusher is saying. It's the ultimate Catch 22.

If I'm a vet player who has been around Oaktown the last 4 years I'm talking to myself. I'm saying to myself ``I go out there and bust my ass and we get terrible results...now we're in a close game and coach puts in the rookie QB and rookie LT. Fuck. That misses me off".

On the other hand I'm thinking like Crusher says this season is toast. If I'm gonan be here next year I want to be able to win. And getting Russell ready makes some sense too.

So WTF? I dunno. I want to win these last two games. Maybe Russell being in there gives us just as good a chance. I just don't know that. SO, I defer to Kiffin who is the leder and is there at all the pratices, knows what the team chemistry is like and can make the right decision.

Out. :D

[Stanny]

Waht we would gain is that the players would buy into Kiffin's program even more. What we'd gain is the players wouldn't feel like it's hopeless in Oakland. We'd actually gain a lot going forward. Of course we'd lose draft position but then I really don't care. We can fuck up the #2 pick as well as the #8 pick. The players would love to play these last two games knowing that the coaching stafff hasn't given up on them and is trying to win as hard as they the players are.

So for the sake of the players who have gone through these last 4 years it would be a Godsend. Not saying we will or can win the last two but it would be great. Frankly I think we can take the Chargers at home. LT has to be held somewhat in check but look what we did to Addai. It can be done.

'Ya know --- just sayin'. :)

Reppidty Rep.....And I agree.

[RHC]

RHC: Who the hell are you talking to? You quote me and then talk about other guys' opinions. Whatever "Coach Dauber".I'm talking to you and everyone else. I'm the only one here on my side of the fence. You've flip-flopped so many times I can't even remember where you started. Whatever "Hillary."

Situations change and the general whining around here shifts to some other pile of bullshit.

"Don't put him in, he might get mentally distraught because we suck."

"Don't put him in, he might get hurt because we suck."

"Don't put him in, he's so fucking stupid he only knows how to run 3 plays."

"Don't put him in, we're doing well now and all the other prima dona bitch players - a lot of whom won't even be here next year - might get their panties in a wad because they're not willing to bust their asses unless Josh Fucking McCown is under center."

"Don't put him in because we can only win with God-forsaken Josh Fucking McCown, who has all of a sudden somehow become Jeff Garcia in all our minds."

Fuck it. You're all crazy.

[Rupert]

Bones: Of course it's a catch-22. But if they throw Russell out there "to develop". And the defense just gets the hell beaten out of them after the 7th straight punt. What have we gained? We've gone through a necessary growing process for our QB and thrown the defense under the bus. A head coach cannot afford to piss off half his team.

So with half the team pissy, you see that our running game only got 2.5 per carry against Indy with Russell under center when we got 4.1 with McCown under center. So our running game dropped off too. That would piss off the RB's and OL. So who would putting Russell out there really make happy? The fans.

I just don't see how sacrificing what we've just started to build by giving the rook all the remaining reps improves the team overall.

Again, it's simple. If we're going to rebuild the DL next season to stop teams from running on us all day we can throw a little more pressure on them by having the rook out there. If we improve the OL with a guy or two next season, and can sack up when teams throw 8 in the box to stop the run, we can afford to have the rook out there.

Right now, I don't see that giving the rook ALL the reps helps this team as much as being able to have some success on offense and give the defense some rest.

[Rupert]

RHC: Sorry, I don't flip flop that much. Let me break down my position for you so you don't get confused.

When I wanted Russell to sit, we were trying to establish the offense. Putting him out there would have been detrimental to that end.

When we had racked up enough losses and it looked like we couldn't get the offense established. I thought it made more sense to put Russell in than be ineffective with a couple rental QB's.

When a rental QB started establishing an offensive rhythm, it was obvious to me that the team responded VERY positively. It doesn't make sense to me to ruin that progress by returning to the ineffectiveness of the early season by putting Russell out there full-time.

It's not about the guys who won't be here next season. A smart coach has to worry about those who will be here next season, and those he can "recruit" to be here next season.

Saying "fuckitall" and damning the team for a heels-dug-in stubborn approach to using the rookie QB is not the smartest approach.

Kiffin can challenge the offense to replicate their success with Russell under center, but he couldn't have done that without any success to draw upon. Kiffin can challenge the defense to play a little harder while Russell is in there if they know they're going to get some offense at some point in the game. He can't do that unless Russell has some success or he's willing to put McCown in for some series.

I said flip-flopping, but the truth is I prefer to use the appropriate strategy for the appropriate circumstances. I think Kiffin's approach is working, and I see the sense in it. If you can't see the sense in it, I cannot help you. And that's why I called you "Coach Dauber".

[RHC]

Who fucking cares how the team responded in that specific situation last week?

McCown sucks ass. He put up a mediocre effort, posted a 77 rating and couldn't close the deal. If the players get all excited when McCown trots out on the field then they're stupid.

In the 4th qtr, McCown goes 4 for 8 for 31 yards and shits the bed like he always does.

3-4-IND 31 (14:19) (Shotgun) J.McCown pass to R.Curry to IND 21 for 10 yards (T.Jennings). P13
2-7-IND 18 (13:12) J.McCown pass to J.Griffith pushed ob at IND 13 for 5 yards (F.Keiaho).
1-10-IND 10 (11:57) J.McCown pass incomplete short right to J.Porter.
1-10-OAK 45 (4:42) J.McCown pass to J.Porter to IND 48 for 7 yards (M.Giordano; J.Charleston).
1-10-IND 45 (3:27) (Shotgun) J.McCown pass to D.Rhodes to IND 36 for 9 yards (F.Keiaho).
1-10-IND 17 (2:40) J.McCown pass incomplete deep left to J.Porter.
3-9-IND 16 (2:00) J.McCown pass incomplete deep right to J.Porter.
4-9-IND 16 (1:54) J.McCown pass incomplete short right to J.Porter.

If not for YAC after little flare passes and dump-offs he would have thrown for maybe 50 yds in the entire game.

McCown has nothing to do with whatever pathetic success we've had. He brings nothing to the table over Russell. Our running game carries this team.

If you can't see that on the field, I cannot help you.

[Jack's sore libido]

I prefer to use the appropriate strategy for the appropriate circumstances. I think Kiffin's approach is working, and I see the sense in it.

Rep for you.

[Ghost To The Post]

I myself would love to see what we have in Russell. I would also like to see him TAKE the job from McCown.

This season's crop turned, for various reasons, into a big bag of horse-crap. There is very little you can do with horse-crap...can't eat it...can't smoke it...but you can use it to fertilize next years crop.

I would like to see Russell in a more meaningful situation (ie win the game or lose the game it on your shoulders) but I get ticked off by articles like these.


"I wish more could have happened," Russell said, "but sometimes that's how things go." Especially after missing an entire rookie training camp

"I'm a very confident guy," Russell said. "At times, you can get a little down on yourself. I'm pretty sure coach knows what he's doing. Whether he puts me in or takes me out, it doesn't matter. Because I'm going to go out there and help my team any way I can." Like showing up at training camp next season


This kid (or his agent..if you want) dug a deep-hole to climb out of. He will get a chance to compete for the starting job next season...hopefully he will earn it.

This season belongs to McCown by default and he will be the starter, but hopefully Russell will get a chance to play a few series back-to-back, a quarter or a half with an expanded playbook. I think we all want to see aglimpse of where we are headed.

[hawaiianboy]

This season's crop turned, for various reasons, into a big bag of horse-crap. There is very little you can do with horse-crap...can't eat it...can't smoke it...but you can use it to fertilize next years crop.


You usually have to scale some mountain and visit some ancient, wise Asian man sitting cross- legged at the very peak to get this kind of deep rooted wisdom... :bow:


__________________
This season's crop turned, for various reasons, into a big bag of horse-crap. There is very little you can do with horse-crap...can't eat it...can't smoke it...but you can use it to fertilize next years crop.
Ghost To The Post

[Crow]

Sig material, even. Yikes.

[CrossBones]

Ghost to the Post LIVES.

Nice post bro.

Good to see you around.

[RHC]

I myself would love to see what we have in Russell. I would also like to see him TAKE the job from McCown.

This season's crop turned, for various reasons, into a big bag of horse-crap. There is very little you can do with horse-crap...can't eat it...can't smoke it...but you can use it to fertilize next years crop.

I would like to see Russell in a more meaningful situation (ie win the game or lose the game it on your shoulders) but I get ticked off by articles like these.


"I wish more could have happened," Russell said, "but sometimes that's how things go." Especially after missing an entire rookie training camp

"I'm a very confident guy," Russell said. "At times, you can get a little down on yourself. I'm pretty sure coach knows what he's doing. Whether he puts me in or takes me out, it doesn't matter. Because I'm going to go out there and help my team any way I can." Like showing up at training camp next season


This kid (or his agent..if you want) dug a deep-hole to climb out of. He will get a chance to compete for the starting job next season...hopefully he will earn it.

This season belongs to McCown by default and he will be the starter, but hopefully Russell will get a chance to play a few series back-to-back, a quarter or a half with an expanded playbook. I think we all want to see aglimpse of where we are headed.So you want to smack Russell across the knuckles with a yardstick for missing camp? And hamper this team's progress in the process?

"This season belongs to McCown by default" Why?? I don't understand that statement at all. There's no "default". What in the holy hell has McCown done to rate the "default" position?? Other than post the worst rating of his career, 11 INTs to only 10 TDs, and less than 1000 yds in 10 freakin' starts?

Right now there's only the future. If there's any "default" to discuss, it's the fact that the future is Russell's by default. The future started 2 losses ago and we've ignored it.

[Jack's sore libido]

I think Russell is smacking his own knuckles for missing camp and preseason.

That was valuable time that could have prepared him to play this year.

[Rupert]

I myself would love to see what we have in Russell. I would also like to see him TAKE the job from McCown.

This season belongs to McCown by default and he will be the starter, but hopefully Russell will get a chance to play a few series back-to-back, a quarter or a half with an expanded playbook. I think we all want to see aglimpse of where we are headed.

Nailed it! We all want to see Russell. Russell's future depends upon the players around him. Getting them better used to the offense when it's working will help Russell when it's his turn. Letting the defense know they're not going to be on the field after 4 plays will go a long way to helping. Letting the offense stay on the field for more than 3 plays when Russell is in will go much farther towards building his abilities in it. Doing a 3-5 and out every series with Russell in the game is truly meaningless. That only prolongs a dismal present, it doesn't do very much to speed up the future.

[Abelardo]

Sending Russell in doesn't mean an improvement over McClown in terms of winning games, yeah. But we still have won nothing with him and the season is almost gone. Last sunday, we were not gonna beat Indy in no way. What you saw it's just a mirage turned into a moral victory. Anthing else is just mental masturbations. We lost that game. McClown had two successful drives only. Give Russell the same amount of opportunities to make a fair judgement.

The way we played against Indy encourages people to have interest in this season, good. Guess what, in two weeks we will be talkin about next year and what McClown did will be absolutely irrelevant and the games we may have won or lost will mean shit. I would send Russell and other young players to test the field. But that won't happen. Kiffin will play to win.
Therefore, enjoy your losses. In two weeks all these words will be flushed.

[Madturk]

I think Russell is smacking his own knuckles for missing camp and preseason.




Was that from an upright walking position? :pound: Sorry couldn't resist

[Rupert]

The way we played against Indy encourages people to have interest in this season, good. Guess what, in two weeks we will be talkin about next year and what McClown did will be absolutely irrelevant and the games we may have won or lost will mean shit.

In two weeks? Man we've been talking about next season for over a month.

It always has been a team game, and I don't understand the approach of sacrificing the morale and development of 21 players for the development of 1.

You say we're probably going to have a new #1 WR, at least 1 new OL, 2 new DL, a new S, and maybe a new OLB. So even if we get the wish list we're talking about 15 guys STILL starting for us from this season. I guess it's okay to tell them to put their bodies on the line the last 2 games for nothing. Don't try. Just try to not get injured. Why even put them out there? Then what do you have? You don't have a viable team around Russell and his time out there is meaningless.

Just giving up to play the kids actually hurts their development, or have we so conveniently forgotten how meaningless pre-season is.

You want to throw Henderson out there? Sure, just don't do it while Russell is out there.

We've seen McQuistan make the transition, but who was counting on him after last season? Exactly, my friends. You throw a guy out there in a clusterfuck and you get no good read on him. Just throwing the kids out there is creating a clusterfuck. Kiffin has done a good job preventing that. And you want to change that now? Not a good idea.

[RaiderDestiny]

Frankly I think we can take the Chargers at home. LT has to be held somewhat in check but look what we did to Addai. It can be done.

'Ya know --- just sayin'. :)

Can you recall a time that we have held LT in check? LT's only question when he plays us is what his new career single game record will be. We stand little chance of winning either game. Give the future a chance to learn while there is nothing on the line. The reason rookie QB's lose confidence is because there is immense pressure on them. There is no pressure in the last two games. If you want the team to believe in the future, show them the future. Don't show them the same crap they have already seen for 4 years.

[RaiderDestiny]

Guess what, in two weeks we will be talkin about next year and what McClown did will be absolutely irrelevant and the games we may have won or lost will mean shit. I would send Russell and other young players to test the field. But that won't happen. Kiffin will play to win.
Therefore, enjoy your losses. In two weeks all these words will be flushed.

I couldn't agree more. This season will be irrelevant the minute it is over, UNLESS Russell plays. That is the ONLY positive that can be gleaned from the next two games. McCown is not going to inspire confidence in ANYONE. None of the other players on the team are going to "develop" any more than they have. We are not all of the sudden going to gel and find chemistry. If I were a free agent, I would like to see if there were actually a future in Oakland before I would even consider coming here. Show them what we have. F^#&k this season. In case you have all missed it, it is over. 2 wins mean absolutely nothing at this point. Start building the future now.

[CrossBones]

Can you recall a time that we have held LT in check? LT's only question when he plays us is what his new career single game record will be. We stand little chance of winning either game. Give the future a chance to learn while there is nothing on the line. The reason rookie QB's lose confidence is because there is immense pressure on them. There is no pressure in the last two games. If you want the team to believe in the future, show them the future. Don't show them the same crap they have already seen for 4 years.Hmph. :D

I hear 'ya man. Like I said earlier it's a Catrch 22 for me.

[Rupert]

Can you recall a time that we have held LT in check? LT's only question when he plays us is what his new career single game record will be. We stand little chance of winning either game. Give the future a chance to learn while there is nothing on the line. The reason rookie QB's lose confidence is because there is immense pressure on them. There is no pressure in the last two games. If you want the team to believe in the future, show them the future. Don't show them the same crap they have already seen for 4 years.

The problem is, with Russell in there, it has looked like the same crap from the last 4 years. How is that going to inspire the players?

[RaiderDestiny]

The problem is, with Russell in there, it has looked like the same crap from the last 4 years. How is that going to inspire the players?

I will use fewer words this time to avoid confusion.

THE FUTURE

We know what we have with McCown. Because we are trying to improve for the THE FUTURE, why would we waste any more time with a known commodity that is not in the plans for the FUTURE.

I will accede to the arguement of starting McCown if any of you can give me one valid reason how McCown will help this team grow and improve in the next two games. Other than the ever present "we could gain confidence and momentum going into next year". I would buy that if our QB was Brett Favre and we had something to build on, but we are talking about riding a guy that WILL NOT BE PLAYING NEXT YEAR.

[Rupert]

I'll use fewer word this time to avoid confusion.

There are 10 other players on offense to worry about. With McCown in there they play better. We're talking about the offensive TEAM. That's 10 other guys AND subs that play off the bench that play better with McCown. They have to improve and get cohesive too.

[Rupert]

Destiny: One more thing. I don't see it as an either or situation. Kiffin is already doing some of both. When he thinks it's time to go 100% with Russell, I'm 100% behind it.

[007]

The ten other players dont get paid his type of money and wont be the 'face of the franchise'.

This whole thread is silly...Wouldnt Russell have to be given the ball, in order for him to drop it?

We havent seen enough of the guy and its damn well time we yanked McCown out of there in order to pave a path for the future.

JMO of course.

[raider60]

Destiny: One more thing. I don't see it as an either or situation. Kiffin is already doing some of both. When he thinks it's time to go 100% with Russell, I'm 100% behind it.

You and me both. I don't confuse my watching the games and following the team through the media as knowing as much or more about Russell and the future of the organization as Kiffin and company--

[SoCalRaider]

Because we are trying to improve for the THE FUTURE, why would we waste any more time with a known commodity that is not in the plans for the FUTURE.


If that were the most appropriate reasoning, this organization should have mailed it in about half way into each of the last 5 seasons... As long as Al is running this thang.... winning will always take precedence. No point in even debating it, or disagreeing with it... it's pretty much a first principle around here.





There are 10 other players on offense to worry about.

Agreed... and to build on that.... there's more to a football team than just 1 player. Nice part about being competitive in these last few games is an opportunity to continue to develop and evaluate players on both sides of the ball. I'm more excited about seeing guys like Howard play the best ball of their careers in a close game or seeing an OLine continue to grow and develop in a tightly contested game than watching the entire team throw it into 1st gear just to accomodate a single rookie... who never bothered showing up on time to begin with.

[BigTron]

If that were the most appropriate reasoning, this organization should have mailed it in about half way into each of the last 5 seasons... As long as Al is running this thang.... winning will always take precedence. No point in even debating it, or disagreeing with it... it's pretty much a first principle around here.







Agreed... and to build on that.... there's more to a football team than just 1 player. Nice part about being competitive in these last few games is an opportunity to continue to develop and evaluate players on both sides of the ball. I'm more excited about seeing guys like Howard play the best ball of their careers in a close game or seeing an OLine continue to grow and develop in a tightly contested game than watching the entire team throw it into 1st gear just to accomodate a single rookie... who never bothered showing up on time to begin with.

I think Kiffin feels the same way. He makes it clear he is checking out players for next season and seems to acknowledge the obvious pink elephant of re-building. He is basically grading the current roster and will make some power moves with Big Al this offseason. I think Kiffin knows what he has with most guys on the roster by this point. With the exceptions of JR, Bush and those injured.

[Crow]

In two weeks? Man we've been talking about next season for over a month.

Some of us have been talking about next year even longer.

[RaiderDestiny]

I'll use fewer word this time to avoid confusion.

There are 10 other players on offense to worry about. With McCown in there they play better. We're talking about the offensive TEAM. That's 10 other guys AND subs that play off the bench that play better with McCown. They have to improve and get cohesive too.

Again, how do these 10 other players develop with McCown beyond where they are now? My guess is that at least 4 of these 10 will not be playing next year. What are we trying to build? Cohesiveness and rhythm for 2 games? If you want to develop a team, then use the players that are going to be on the team. You all complain that Russell missed out on training camp and did not gain the experience that would have provided. How is this different? Why would we waste this opportunity? What could we gain that would be more important that getting the guy who is going to be our franchise some experience. I can't remember which QB it was, but he said the key to his development was that he played some at the end of his rookie year. It allowed him to know how to prepare for the offseason and next year because he knew what to work on. If Russell does not play, this season is a waste, the offseason is not as effective as it could be and we start next year with a rookie. We set the team back a whole season. And again, I ask for what benefit. So that our receivers can learn how to be underthrown? So that our offense can learn what it is like to play with a half of the play book because the QB can't make the throws for the other half? What will the TEAM gain? Has anyone thought what would happen if the kid came in and won both games or played well and actually learned something? Think that might have an impact on the future? Losing the games certainly won't hurt us. We are expected to lose.

By the way Rup, don't think any of this is directed at you. I am just frustrated by this argument. We consistently complain that we do not develop players as a team and then as fans we are all for stunting that development. We are not taking this argument with any of our other rookies. We are demanding that they produce. No one gives a crap about Miller's learning curve. We all think he should run perfect routes and catch every ball. No one has cut Higgens any slack with his bonehead play at times, but they are playing. They are getting experience and they will be better for it. I promise you that if Russell does not play, we will be asking ourselves early next year why Russell is not as far along as he should be. Others will argue that missing training camp this year is the reason, but my stance will be that we did not prepare him as we should have in game time situations where it really matters. I'd hate to see us waste this opportunity.

[RHC]

RD, the man isn't listening. You'll spend a lot of time laying out the wisdom behind playing Russell every possible second for the rest of the season, and he'll come back with the same bullshit touchy-feely therapy session crap.

Fuck the players' morale. Fuck their fragile little prima dona egos. Fuck them. FUUUUCKKK THEM!! They have burned this season to the ground and put us in the position where the best possible thing for this team at this point is to develop our franchise QB. THEY PUT US HERE!

There are 10 other players on the offernse who are LOSERS!! They have made a career of LOSING!! Know what they'll do in the next 2 weeks? THEY'LL LOSE!!

Know what McCown will do? He'll throw more INTs than TDs, continue to post a 68 rating and then, after the season is over, HE'S GONE!! He's fucking GONE, Rupert! GONE! Do you understand that? Who will start in 2008? Who will be responsible for winning games in 2008? WHO, RUPERT??

Nothing about starting Russell will stunt the development of any of our players. It's a stupid fucking argument and it's old and crusty as my dead and buried grandfather.

Rep to RD, couldn't give one to Abelardo yet but I'll get back to it.

[RHC]

It always has been a team game, and I don't understand the approach of sacrificing the morale and development of 21 players for the development of 1.What happens next season when we're losing our asses because Russell never learned how to play at the NFL level? What happens to player morale then? What happens to fan morale??

You're not thinking clearly.

[RHC]

The ten other players dont get paid his type of money and wont be the 'face of the franchise'.

This whole thread is silly...Wouldnt Russell have to be given the ball, in order for him to drop it?

We havent seen enough of the guy and its damn well time we yanked McCown out of there in order to pave a path for the future.

JMO of course.Rep.

2 games left. I'd dedicate every split second of them to preparing Russell for next season.

[Rupert]

Destiny: The arguments have been made one way and another over and over. Let me break them down for you:

Confidence: It's about all 11 players. Period. Tell me how the other 10 are going to gain confidence if the QB only knows half the plays (like Russell). You complain McCown can't make the deep throws. I agree. But Rich Gannon couldn't either, and he took us to the big dance. That argument doesn't fly. McCown ain't no Gannon either though, so don't mistake me for a guy who likes McCown. I've thrown enough dirt on the grave I wanted him buried in for that to be clear. How is the rook going to gain confidence if he's put in bad situations because we can't run the ball? And then we have to throw and the defense knows it. We become overly predictable with him in the game. He's going to have to overcome that and only more time in the offense is going to do that. Training camp would have done it. Pre-season would have given him game experience. Now, he's going to struggle mightily.

Cohesion and momentum: What the hell are you and others talking about two games for? We turned a corner 4 games ago. These two ADD to that making it 6 games. You're going to tell me we lost the last two games. But I'm going to ask you if we looked like the team that started the season in those games. I say we definitely didn't. We looked out-manned against Green Bay, but we played much better than we did early in the season. And we almost beat Indy, one of the best teams in the league (granted they're half injured).

We haven't given up a sack in three games. Do you think that's momentum? The last time we gave up a sack we had a guy who is very similar to the rookie under center, and Culpepper knows more of the offense than Russell and has a LOT more experience in the NFL.

Our defense stoped the run against Indy. We did WHAT? Part of the reason we did was because the offense put a couple long drives together and burned the clock.

The response to Russell under center will be simple. Stop the run and make the rookie beat you with his arm. That should go along well with Russell's play-fake ability, which I think is much better than McCown's. Teams aren't used to it yet, but they have film of it now. It won't be as effective, and they'll definitely be looking for it. The difference is, when McCown runs it, he might just be running with the ball. Russell doesn't pose the same running threat. Russell can throw the deep ball, but everyone knows it, and the secondary is going to stay deep for that very reason. They will play us with Russell under center like they played us last year, and the results will be frighteningly similar until Russell gets a better handle on the offense.

All of that momentum will go out the door if Russell does what he did in his only two opportunities this season.

The learning curve: Russell permanently delayed his learning curve by holding out. He's behind where he should be at this point. (NOTE: I don't recall complaining about him missing training camp, but don't try to tell me it's meaningless or that this opportunity is anything close to being the same.) If Russell had been in training camp he'd know much more of the offense and we'd be able to give him the full game. So when we can't give him the full game, we can't give him all the reps with the 1st team in practice. We can't give him all the reps with the 1's in practice means his development will be slower. It's a domino effect. Russell threw away the opportunity before the season began. We can't get that back now. Only an off-season and plenty of reps will do that. The practice schedule and games prevent that from happening. This opportunity is VERY different from training camp.

My opinion: I don't know why Russell didn't play in Green Bay. I was happy to see Walter get some time out there, but he looked scared. Would Russell probably have taken a sack on the play Walter threw a left-handed pass to Jordan? Probably. But I'd have taken the sack to let the rook experience life on the frozen tundra. I'm not as cautious as some around here want to be. My point is big picture. There are more guys we have to worry about than just the rook. His contract is meaningless when it comes to winning or losing games. The other 10 guys on offense outweight his contract quite handily. And then there are the guys on defense to consider. Running them out there, without quality depth, after 3-5 and out series after series is not responsible. Hell it's going to happen whether you want it to or not from time to time. It's not like we have the horses to absolutely prevent it. But when we have options that have proven to work, I think it's irresponsible and shows poor leadership not to use them.

In the natural progression of things Russell should see more snaps in this game than in the last game, even if it's on the road. He should work in BOTH halves. I wouldn't start him until San Diego personally, but I would start him then. I'd have a couple triggers for pulling him in the event he's getting flustered, or we put him in too many bad situations. I'd just calm him down while someone else takes a series or two, and then put him back in. It's the luxury you have with a rook. Put him in the fire, pull him out and talk about it. It changes the impact when he knows he's going back in. It's no longer, "Think about it until next time." It becomes, "Make the changes on the next series. Do it NOW!" So maybe he goes out and thinks too much. Pull him again. Go over the plays you want him to run the following series. Show him some pictures (or draw them in the sand box - whatever) and let him react. It's coaching man.

Just throwing the guy in there because you think he'll develop isn't coaching. You put him out there without a plan you're going to fail, and you're going to set his development back. You can fast-track him right out of your future.

[Rupert]

RHC: You're not thinking clearly. We're going to have a veteran QB on the team. Who RHC WHO? I'm betting it's a guy who knows the offense and the coach trusts. Seems like McCown is that guy.

[RHC]

Destiny: The arguments have been made one way and another over and over. Let me break them down for you:

Confidence: It's about all 11 players. Period. Tell me how the other 10 are going to gain confidence if the QB only knows half the plays (like Russell). You complain McCown can't make the deep throws. I agree. But Rich Gannon couldn't either, and he took us to the big dance. That argument doesn't fly. McCown ain't no Gannon either though, so don't mistake me for a guy who likes McCown. I've thrown enough dirt on the grave I wanted him buried in for that to be clear. How is the rook going to gain confidence if he's put in bad situations because we can't run the ball? And then we have to throw and the defense knows it. We become overly predictable with him in the game. He's going to have to overcome that and only more time in the offense is going to do that. Training camp would have done it. Pre-season would have given him game experience. Now, he's going to struggle mightily.

Cohesion and momentum: What the hell are you and others talking about two games for? We turned a corner 4 games ago. These two ADD to that making it 6 games. You're going to tell me we lost the last two games. But I'm going to ask you if we looked like the team that started the season in those games. I say we definitely didn't. We looked out-manned against Green Bay, but we played much better than we did early in the season. And we almost beat Indy, one of the best teams in the league (granted they're half injured).

We haven't given up a sack in three games. Do you think that's momentum? The last time we gave up a sack we had a guy who is very similar to the rookie under center, and Culpepper knows more of the offense than Russell and has a LOT more experience in the NFL.

Our defense stoped the run against Indy. We did WHAT? Part of the reason we did was because the offense put a couple long drives together and burned the clock.

The response to Russell under center will be simple. Stop the run and make the rookie beat you with his arm. That should go along well with Russell's play-fake ability, which I think is much better than McCown's. Teams aren't used to it yet, but they have film of it now. It won't be as effective, and they'll definitely be looking for it. The difference is, when McCown runs it, he might just be running with the ball. Russell doesn't pose the same running threat. Russell can throw the deep ball, but everyone knows it, and the secondary is going to stay deep for that very reason. They will play us with Russell under center like they played us last year, and the results will be frighteningly similar until Russell gets a better handle on the offense.

All of that momentum will go out the door if Russell does what he did in his only two opportunities this season.

The learning curve: Russell permanently delayed his learning curve by holding out. He's behind where he should be at this point. (NOTE: I don't recall complaining about him missing training camp, but don't try to tell me it's meaningless or that this opportunity is anything close to being the same.) If Russell had been in training camp he'd know much more of the offense and we'd be able to give him the full game. So when we can't give him the full game, we can't give him all the reps with the 1st team in practice. We can't give him all the reps with the 1's in practice means his development will be slower. It's a domino effect. Russell threw away the opportunity before the season began. We can't get that back now. Only an off-season and plenty of reps will do that. The practice schedule and games prevent that from happening. This opportunity is VERY different from training camp.

My opinion: I don't know why Russell didn't play in Green Bay. I was happy to see Walter get some time out there, but he looked scared. Would Russell probably have taken a sack on the play Walter threw a left-handed pass to Jordan? Probably. But I'd have taken the sack to let the rook experience life on the frozen tundra. I'm not as cautious as some around here want to be. My point is big picture. There are more guys we have to worry about than just the rook. His contract is meaningless when it comes to winning or losing games. The other 10 guys on offense outweight his contract quite handily. And then there are the guys on defense to consider. Running them out there, without quality depth, after 3-5 and out series after series is not responsible. Hell it's going to happen whether you want it to or not from time to time. It's not like we have the horses to absolutely prevent it. But when we have options that have proven to work, I think it's irresponsible and shows poor leadership not to use them.

In the natural progression of things Russell should see more snaps in this game than in the last game, even if it's on the road. He should work in BOTH halves. I wouldn't start him until San Diego personally, but I would start him then. I'd have a couple triggers for pulling him in the event he's getting flustered, or we put him in too many bad situations. I'd just calm him down while someone else takes a series or two, and then put him back in. It's the luxury you have with a rook. Put him in the fire, pull him out and talk about it. It changes the impact when he knows he's going back in. It's no longer, "Think about it until next time." It becomes, "Make the changes on the next series. Do it NOW!" So maybe he goes out and thinks too much. Pull him again. Go over the plays you want him to run the following series. Show him some pictures (or draw them in the sand box - whatever) and let him react. It's coaching man.

Just throwing the guy in there because you think he'll develop isn't coaching. You put him out there without a plan you're going to fail, and you're going to set his development back. You can fast-track him right out of your future.Wow. That's a whole lot of steaming horseshit in one place.

I'm embarrassed for you. Seriously. It's like watching a movie with an actor who has no clue how to act.

[Rupert]

That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection. Overruled!

[RaiderDestiny]

Destiny:Cohesion and momentum: What the hell are you and others talking about two games for? We turned a corner 4 games ago.


The learning curve: Russell permanently delayed his learning curve by holding out.

I am just going to address these two points because I am pretty much on board with RHC in that the rest is BS. I'm not sure what map you are looking at, but we have not turned a corner. We have made steady progress. We have been in every game this year for the most part. Improving yes, but turned a corner is way too far. Turning a corner suggests taking the next step and we have exhibited no such proof that we have done that. You are proud of our progress against Indy? (So am I for the record, but for different reasons) You think that the 20 play drive where we made 99 yards and a TD is the result of superior play calling and execution? For Christ sake, we ran it straight into the D for 13 plays and had 2 incomplete passes. I would say that speaks more to the state of the Indy D than our prowess on offense.

The biggest thing that Kiff has given this team is heart and a don't quit attitude. They are not going to lose that if we play Russell. Heck, has anyone considered that some of the team might even be pretty excited to see Russell?

In regards to Russells learning curve, that is total and unequivocal BS. If that is true, then Russell was the wrong pick and Kiffin is the wrong coach. You don't learn on your job every day? These guys are immersed in football for 14 hours a day. You would have to be a total and complete idiot not to pick up something. As Bill Parcells said, if you hold a clip board, you learn to hold a clip board. To learn to play, you have to play. Every former QB that has commented on the Russell situation has said the exact same thing. If Russell truly lost a whole season because he did not attend training camp, then he will probably never be the QB that we need him to be.

By the way, for anyone that has a job that is more than bagging groceries, were you ready the first time the boss said get to it? I didn't think so. I manage projects all over the world. Half the time I am scared shitless that things are not going to come together. Guess what, you figure out how to make it work or you fail. The good people make it work. Oh, and we don't like to sit on the sidelines either. There is one thing keeping Russell on the bench and that is fear. My guess is that it is Kiff that is scared and not Russell. The day that Kiffin deemed Russell was ready to take the field in limited duty was the day that Russell was ready to play. Keeping him on the bench now is just hindering his growth and telling him "We don't have the confidence that you can do the job." Kiffin is not even giving Russell a chance to hurt his confidence. He is doing it for him.

I'm not really sure when Raiders fans became such pussies, but the days of taking what we want are obviously gone. We are starting to resemble our friends from across the bay. Sad days.

[raiderfreak7]

Every former QB that has commented on the Russell situation has said the exact same thing. If Russell truly lost a whole season because he did not attend training camp, then he will probably never be the QB that we need him to be.


Steve Young disagrees. He said it's best for a quarterback to sit and learn. All those former quarterbacks were in different situations and therefore have different opinions. Theres no right or wrong way to develop a quarterback and both ways have produced some damn good quarterbacks.

[Rupert]

I am just going to address these two points because I am pretty much on board with RHC in that the rest is BS.

Then you're not as smart as I thought you were because there's a lot of general NFL knowledge there. A simple example: "Stop the run and make the rookie beat you with his arm." You don't think teams are going to do that? Then you don't know nothing. You don't think teams are going to stay deep and force the rookie to make his reads? Then you don't know nothing. You don't think they're going to try to make him hold the ball so they can tee off on him? Then you don't know nothing.

[CrossBones]

I know this is a frustrating subject. Please let's not let it get personal. As I have mentioned before, Natty is still close at hand and will be cracking knuckles if this persists.

Thank you. :D

[BigTron]

I wanted us to draft Lawrence Phillips and give him another shot. He is the 60 million dollar RB we need.

[RaiderDestiny]

Then you're not as smart as I thought you were because there's a lot of general NFL knowledge there. A simple example: "Stop the run and make the rookie beat you with his arm." You don't think teams are going to do that? Then you don't know nothing. You don't think teams are going to stay deep and force the rookie to make his reads? Then you don't know nothing. You don't think they're going to try to make him hold the ball so they can tee off on him? Then you don't know nothing.

And they have not used that strategy against McCown? Have you seen his stats? The guy does not break a 100 yards PASSING a game. We can run the ball the whole game with Russell just as easily as with McCown.

Sorry if I my previous statements were too strong. I am just so frustrated by this. I'll drop it because the argument is pointless, but not using Russell at this point just does not make sense. There is very little to lose and so much to gain. Oh well, nothing we do makes sense any more so I don't know why I would think this would.

[Abelardo]

In two weeks? Man we've been talking about next season for over a month.


Well, we started to talk 2008 for a while, but in two weeks it will be the ONLY subject; right now we still have two almost meaningless games, but they're like the last grasp of air in terms of fun for fans and some valuable learning for the future.


It always has been a team game, and I don't understand the approach of sacrificing the morale and development of 21 players for the development of 1.


I think this is an overreaction. These guys are pros, and are used to this and worse conditions. They have to overcome their feelings. They're warriors not sissies. The're already with Kiffin and won't change just because he is testing different stuff.



You say we're probably going to have a new #1 WR, at least 1 new OL, 2 new DL, a new S, and maybe a new OLB. So even if we get the wish list we're talking about 15 guys STILL starting for us from this season. I guess it's okay to tell them to put their bodies on the line the last 2 games for nothing. Don't try. Just try to not get injured. Why even put them out there? Then what do you have? You don't have a viable team around Russell and his time out there is meaningless.


If you use the meaningless factor, why worry? the games are already meaningless. I have seen teams playing youngsters just to give them a chance to learn thre pace of the game. How could that be bad even if they blow it? Errors and corrections are a normal part of any learning process.


Just giving up to play the kids actually hurts their development, or have we so conveniently forgotten how meaningless pre-season is.


Too radical. Just give them the chance to test the field. Some plays here and there, complete series, whatever... how could a veteran not understand this? Mcclown clearly has showed the pro attitude towards the Russell game time.


You want to throw Henderson out there? Sure, just don't do it while Russell is out there.


There's no need to send them all at the same time. Sorry if I implied that. It is in some way like war, you mix up new divisions with old the help them make the transition. There's always a beginning.


We've seen McQuistan make the transition, but who was counting on him after last season? Exactly, my friends. You throw a guy out there in a clusterfuck and you get no good read on him. Just throwing the kids out there is creating a clusterfuck. Kiffin has done a good job preventing that. And you want to change that now? Not a good idea.

We have to take things easy. It's only two meaningless games in terms of the season, and I really have trouble understanding why playing some time in just two remaining games can be such a bad thing. If the kid is doing bad just put him outa field and send the veteran again. I know you think the vets feelings will be hurt and may lose faith in Kiff, and that the kid can learn bad stuff. Still seems to be out of proportion.

[Abelardo]

10 Reasons to start Russell

1.- Guy will have some valuable film to work in the offseason.

2.- When next season begins, if he is the starter he won't be nervous to enter into a season and a career at the same time.

3.- He will know the lowest point of a team. In the future he will say "I've already knew everything in this league: from top to bottom".

4.- Often, people learn more from the bad than from the good. Let things happen.

5.- Expose him sufficiently to the speed of the pro game so next season it will be more natural.

6.- Get him used to the pressure. I'm pretty sure Jax and SD will do that. Every QB is subject to pressure more often than not. Better get used to it since now. It's an intangible, experience is always valuable. Early experience may be like gold. He's not forced to suceed and can play more relaxed.

7.- He will feel the love and that must help him play better. People really likes him, and nothing possibly could really go wrong. People knows INTS and fumbles can happen, but they happen even to Brady and Manning. Elway had many INTs his firsts years.

8.- Will give Kiffin extra information to plan next season.

9.- It may expose bad things, possible to correct better at the beggining than later.

10.- Fans will enjoy it more than a moral victory, our best expectation for last two games, cos we can hardly expect a win, even if SD sends some backups. They will be still fighting with Pitt and/or Jax in the race for the AFC west Home field advantage, better be #3 than #4. Stop treating Russell like a virgin who must be prepared perfectly for her first night.

[SoCalRaider]

10 Reasons to start Russell
... and 10 objections to each reason....




1.- Guy will have some valuable film to work in the offseason.
He's going to have more than enough valuable film work if he bothers showing up in the preseason. Why not let him learn the offense first.






2.- When next season begins, if he is the starter he won't be nervous to enter into a season and a career at the same time.


This year is meaningless. He will have accomplished nothing heading into next season, regardless of what happens in the next 2 weeks. If he isn't anxious about his performance starting next season............... ---> BUST






3.- He will know the lowest point of a team. In the future he will say "I've already knew everything in this league: from top to bottom".

The day he shows up thinking he knows everything is the day he will officially be a bust. The lows can be a lot worse than this.... just ask Callahan and Shell.






4.- Often, people learn more from the bad than from the good. Let things happen.

Ridiculous... There's not a single example in NFL history to back up your claim of a rookie QB who skipped the entire offseason that benefited by being thrown out there in a pair of diapers.






5.- Expose him sufficiently to the speed of the pro game so next season it will be more natural.
The game will be more natural once he learns how to read a defense. You can't learn how to read a defense if you don't already know your own offense. Learning your own offense has nothing to do with starting.






6.- Get him used to the pressure. I'm pretty sure Jax and SD will do that. Every QB is subject to pressure more often than not. Better get used to it since now. It's an intangible, experience is always valuable. Early experience may be like gold. He's not forced to suceed and can play more relaxed.

If he's doesn't have the innate drive to succeed and thinks this is a walk in the park ------------------> BUST






7.- He will feel the love and that must help him play better. People really likes him, and nothing possibly could really go wrong. People knows INTS and fumbles can happen, but they happen even to Brady and Manning. Elway had many INTs his firsts years.
:bong:






8.- Will give Kiffin extra information to plan next season.
Extra information? The guy barely even knows the offense yet. :rolleyes:






9.- It may expose bad things, possible to correct better at the beggining than later.

Expose bad things versus develop bad habits? This is where me, Kiffin, and Al disagree with you.






10.- Fans will enjoy it more than a moral victory, our best expectation for last two games, cos we can hardly expect a win, even if SD sends some backups. They will be still fighting with Pitt and/or Jax in the race for the AFC west Home field advantage, better be #3 than #4. Stop treating Russell like a virgin who must be prepared perfectly for her first night.
:bong:

[Rupert]

My opinion: I don't know why Russell didn't play in Green Bay. I was happy to see Walter get some time out there, but he looked scared. Would Russell probably have taken a sack on the play Walter threw a left-handed pass to Jordan? Probably. But I'd have taken the sack to let the rook experience life on the frozen tundra. I'm not as cautious as some around here want to be. My point is big picture. There are more guys we have to worry about than just the rook. His contract is meaningless when it comes to winning or losing games. The other 10 guys on offense outweight his contract quite handily. And then there are the guys on defense to consider. Running them out there, without quality depth, after 3-5 and out series after series is not responsible. Hell it's going to happen whether you want it to or not from time to time. It's not like we have the horses to absolutely prevent it. But when we have options that have proven to work, I think it's irresponsible and shows poor leadership not to use them.

In the natural progression of things Russell should see more snaps in this game than in the last game, even if it's on the road. He should work in BOTH halves. I wouldn't start him until San Diego personally, but I would start him then. I'd have a couple triggers for pulling him in the event he's getting flustered, or we put him in too many bad situations. I'd just calm him down while someone else takes a series or two, and then put him back in. It's the luxury you have with a rook. Put him in the fire, pull him out and talk about it. It changes the impact when he knows he's going back in. It's no longer, "Think about it until next time." It becomes, "Make the changes on the next series. Do it NOW!" So maybe he goes out and thinks too much. Pull him again. Go over the plays you want him to run the following series. Show him some pictures (or draw them in the sand box - whatever) and let him react. It's coaching man.

Just throwing the guy in there because you think he'll develop isn't coaching. You put him out there without a plan you're going to fail, and you're going to set his development back. You can fast-track him right out of your future.

You see, I don't think anyone read this because then they'd stop acting as if I don't want Russell to play. It's frustrating responding to attacks that assume I don't want him to play.

[BigTron]

I think the team is going to try to win both these games with 100% effort. This team had alot of guys who didnt quit last year and i dont see it happening this year. Saying that we shouldnbt expect a win vs SD back-ups is s stretch. I think we have a chance to beat SD even more because they will have some back-ups. If we dont expect to win the game 100% then Russell shouldnt play. Shit I hope Kiffin expects to win. If he is already accepting losses he shouldnt be coaching here.

[RHC]

That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection. Overruled!I've laid down page after page of hardcore football analysis. Everything you keep spewing has been debinked at least 3 times already.

My New Year's resolution is to let fools flounder around in their own ignorant sewage. I'm getting started early because your case is particularly pig-headed.

[RHC]

Steve Young disagrees. He said it's best for a quarterback to sit and learn.Steve fucking Young sat behind the greatest QB who ever played, and his team was winning while he was on the bench.

Take an apple in one hand. If there's not an apple in the other hand, please don't compare the two.

[BigTron]

Damn this thread is gangsta. Cant we all just agree to disagree? Alot of this shit is opinion based on knowledge we dont have. I believe some of you guys would actually try and convince Coach Kiffin you know better than him! We need some Bronco's fans in here to take some punishment. Were all S&B here right?

[RHC]

I think the team is going to try to win both these games with 100% effort. This team had alot of guys who didnt quit last year and i dont see it happening this year. Saying that we shouldnbt expect a win vs SD back-ups is s stretch. I think we have a chance to beat SD even more because they will have some back-ups. If we dont expect to win the game 100% then Russell shouldnt play. Shit I hope Kiffin expects to win. If he is already accepting losses he shouldnt be coaching here.And why can't you go into a game expecting to win with Russell under center? What kind of magic wand does McCown wield that everyone believes he's the only way we can win?

He sucks.

And before you all start yapping about how Russell didn't do anything in the last game, just save it. Russell wasn't allowed to do anything. Kiffin has been throwing the fans and Al a bone by sending him out on the field, but he's tying the kid's hands. Kiff trotted the young stud out and trotted him around the track so we could ooh and ahh, then covered him back up and stuck him in the stable.

[RHC]

Damn this thread is gangsta. Cant we all just agree to disagree? Alot of this shit is opinion based on knowledge we dont have. I believe some of you guys would actually try and convince Coach Kiffin you know better than him! We need some Bronco's fans in here to take some punishment. Were all S&B here right?The reason this topic is so acidic is because those on my side of the fence aren't happy with losing. All I care about is making the playoffs. Once that happens, all I care about is winning the next game.

If it doesn't happen, there are other considerations. It is no longer just about winning the next game. Because once we're out of the playoff hunt this year, all I care about is making the playoffs NEXT YEAR.

Our only hope to do that is to move Russell along the learning curve as quickly as possible.

I don't want to hear the training camp crap. Get the kid as ready as you possibly can. Put him out there. Do everything in your power to help him succeed and win games. It's a simple equation. And it most certainly will not result in the end of the world as we know it.

I don't care about the teams' psyche. They can eat it. They've failed miserably this year and now they can help move us in the right direction.

[RHC]

I know this is a frustrating subject. Please let's not let it get personal. As I have mentioned before, Natty is still close at hand and will be cracking knuckles if this persists.

Thank you. :DSorry Bro. I can't help myself. I'll try to tone it down but you may have to eject me from the game. Be gentle.

[BigTron]

I never said i dont think we can win with Russell at QB. Im just saying coach Kiffin thinks giving him time early in three games is the best way to bring him along. I have to trust he knows more about it due to his closeness to the situation, his NFL background, his drafting and teaching of JR, being a former QB etc. I think if JaMarcus was ready to have a great game he would be starting. I think Kiffin knows we dont match-up well vs the Jags and doesnt want to put him in a risky situation with a nasty team heading into the playoffs trying to keep momentum vs a rebuilding team like us.

The Jags have a nasty D that will shut down our running game with one of the best corners in the game on one side of the field(Mathis). Then they will field a dual headed attack form Fred Taylor and MJD on our run D while Garrard doesnt turn the ball over. We are missing our best player on O this year in Fargas and JaMarcus might be better served to come off the bench one last time and play a good amount of snaps. Then next week maybe you give him the start against a SD team that may not be motivated or fully dispatched.

Then at the end of the year you have a QB who has played in 4 games with a start vs a good team.

[SoCalRaider]

I don't care about the teams' psyche. They can eat it. They've failed miserably this year

If they win the season finale.... and sweep the AFC West in the 2nd half of the season.... I wouldn't call this year a failure at all...

[Rupert]

I've laid down page after page of hardcore football analysis. Everything you keep spewing has been debinked at least 3 times already.

My New Year's resolution is to let fools flounder around in their own ignorant sewage. I'm getting started early because your case is particularly pig-headed.

Sorry, nothing I've said has been "debinked" yet, neither has any of it been debunked. Strange to hear you of all people calling anyone pig-headed though. That's particularly ironic. That entire last paragraph is bitingly ironic. :pound:

[RHC]

If they win the season finale.... and sweep the AFC West in the 2nd half of the season.... I wouldn't call this year a failure at all...Disagreement at the most fundamental level.

So be it.

[raiderfreak7]

Steve fucking Young sat behind the greatest QB who ever played, and his team was winning while he was on the bench.

Take an apple in one hand. If there's not an apple in the other hand, please don't compare the two.

But you want to compare our situation to Peyton fucking Manning when he played twice as many games in college and started all four years?:pound:

Dude, no situation is ever going to be the same so sitting here and saying that your way is the best isn't going to get you anywhere.

[RHC]

But you want to compare our situation to Peyton fucking Manning when he played twice as many games in college and started all four years?:pound:

Dude, no situation is ever going to be the same so sitting here and saying that your way is the best isn't going to get you anywhere.Where exactly is it that you think I want to be? I'm arguing because I love the game and the team and I've learned a little something about it over the last 25 years.

Football fans have lost the core values we all used to have. Some of you guys should go ahead and switch over to synchronized swimming. It suits your temperament better.

Winning.

Leaving it all on the field.

Beating the guy across from you.

Dominating.

Being the best in the world.

Hitting hard.

Sacrificing your body.

Imposing your will.

These are some of the core values. Everything else is smoke and BS.

[Rupert]

RHC: You forgot:

It's a team game.

It takes all 11 guys being on the same page.

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

There's no I in TEAM.

[SoCalRaider]

If they win the season finale.... and sweep the AFC West in the 2nd half of the season.... I wouldn't call this year a failure at all...Disagreement at the most fundamental level.

So be it.

I can appreciate you setting the playoffs as a barometer for success. I just think we're a lot closer to getting to the playoffs (in the next few years) with Kiffin's current approach towards developing the rest of the squad at a different pace than Russell.

[Abelardo]

Why the objections fall by themselves.


He's going to have more than enough valuable film work if he bothers showing up in the preseason. Why not let him learn the offense first.


There's no comparison to the real thing, it has more value than most things you can simulate in practice. You say "If he bothers showing up in the preseason" what does that have to do with my argument? I just said get some film evidence of real current situations. You just switched a different context. Probably you're still pissed because he skipped training camp. That was not my point. Objection Overruled.


This year is meaningless. He will have accomplished nothing heading into next season, regardless of what happens in the next 2 weeks. If he isn't anxious about his performance starting next season............... ---> BUST


You're elaborating way beyond the facts. This is not about accomplishments, just getting some experience that can help him to be less nervous. Experience is an intangible composed of many factors, and like other things in life needs to be known, you don't get much of it by talking or simulating it. Nobody can say there is a sure way to get it. Try the possibilities you have at hand. And we have two games to give Russell a chance to get some. Playing time provides facts from where you can analize and extract conclussions. Objection overruled.



The day he shows up thinking he knows everything is the day he will officially be a bust. The lows can be a lot worse than this.... just ask Callahan and Shell.


????? You're in deep in your own context now. I clearly said: in the future he (Russell) will say "I knew everything in this league". Past tense. It means when his career in its end. You can't turn into a bust when you're retired if logic shouldva been applied, or maybe it was read too quickly. Otherwise he would say as you imply: "I know everything in this league". And then from nothing you think he can turn into a bust for this? You want to punish him indeed. What did the kid do to you? Objection overruled.


Ridiculous... There's not a single example in NFL history to back up your claim of a rookie QB who skipped the entire offseason that benefited by being thrown out there in a pair of diapers.


Again taking it to your own context and obsessions. I talked of exposing to experience in general for human beings. My comment says literally: "Often, people learn more from the bad than from the good. Let things happen." It is an absolutely general observation, anybody can see it. Then you switch to your own particular obsessions and come out with diapers and QBs who skipped training????? Where are your comments located at? I'm impressed. Objection overruled.



The game will be more natural once he learns how to read a defense. You can't learn how to read a defense if you don't already know your own offense. Learning your own offense has nothing to do with starting.


Again, changing the context. I just said "expose him to the speed of the game". Nothing more than that. Then you "forget" the word speed and change it to "the game will be more natural" While I only talk of the "game speed will be more natural", you magnify and distort the context introducing "reading a defense" and "knowing your offence"... different things, I don't see them in opposition to the speed concept. Again, poor logic taken from your own obsessions. Overruled.


If he's doesn't have the innate drive to succeed and thinks this is a walk in the park ------------------> BUST


What??? Obsessions everywhere. My comments had nothing to do with what you're saying. "Innate drive???? BUST???? I just said: "Let him feel the pressure". Again the kid can be bust?? Why the obsession? Too much distortion. Objection overruled.


:bong:

When I said he (JaMarcus) would feel the love of the people, it was just a rethoric way to say he could feel comfortable and protected, like in a family, which in many ways the Raiders are. Errors are forgiven. He won't feel bad if he throws an INT. If you like to see things from a drugs point of view, that's your own world, not mine.


Extra information? The guy barely even knows the offense yet. :rolleyes:


Precisely. Playing now from the beggining may help to identify which things he needs to work on or make emphasis in the next camp. It's weird to understand why you consider extra info cannot help. You're being way too negative towards the boy. Isn't it clear now that you're mad at Russell because he skipped training camp, and all this is being written just because you want him to be punished?


Expose bad things versus develop bad habits? This is where me, Kiffin, and Al disagree with you.


I'm surprised. Logic is gone. Again, you're elaborating way too much. I just said: "Expose bad things to correct them" then you add, just like that, expose bad things vs developing bad habits????? I didn't say that. Then you line up with Al and Kiff, just a cheap trick to support your argument, which in fact can't be supported because it's going nowhere, and expresses only resentment.

You're just pretty much upset and the reasoning is falling to second place. I'm sorry for that. Cmon man, give JaMarcus a chance; yeah, he skipped camp, and that was a bad thing, but don't be mad at the kid. It was all about money, like everything. Now he is here, and it could be good to see him play. If things don't work, I don't see a disaster there. The season has not been precisely successful, why focus so much anger in watching our franchise player play now, and hating the people that cheer for him?

[Crow]

http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/photos_images/news_images/04-2006/measuring_tape_lg.jpg

[SoCalRaider]

You say "If he bothers showing up in the preseason" what does that have to do with my argument? I just said get some film evidence of real current situations.
He's getting his game time situations and his film evidence. If he wants to be a "starter" in this league... he's got to show up to training camp and preseason and actually learn the offense.





Probably you're still pissed because he skipped training camp. That was not my point. Objection Overruled.

The Internet psychology is laughable. The fact that you think you have credibility to overrule something is even more laughable.






Again, poor logic taken from your own obsessions.
You're starting to sound like a really depraved little man. If you want to actually have a coherent discussion... got no problem with that... but if you want to get into some sort of a pissing contest.... I've got better things to do with my time.

[Abelardo]

I know you probably have more interesting things to do than posting replies to my "10 reasons" but you quoted and replied. I didn't address specifically nobody, so I think it's normal to reply back.

I know you consider yourself the "coherent", but what I just wrote didn't call you names or associated nobody with drugs, even less I laughed about arguments which start seriously. If I talk about obsessions it's because it's incorporated in your comments on Russell. Any serious text analysis will expose that. Fortunately everybody can read. Almost everything you said about Russell is negative, therefore it's possible to assume you're angry. That may be Internet Psychology to you, other people will say it's only common sense. Training camp skipped is also a constant in your writings. That's the past and still you keep taking it to next season, while obvioulsy JaMarcus will be there, cos hes now under contract. But in no way I laugh at you or consider perverted or things like that. I just see you're mad at him and you have the right to express so. When people is angry, usually reasoning is blurred by feelings. No more than that.

So, don't go away, I'm not pissed because you think different. And if wanna use names or call me depraved go ahead. Have no problem.

[RNorris]

http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/photos_images/news_images/04-2006/measuring_tape_lg.jpg


OverRULED!

[SoCalRaider]

If I talk about obsessions it's because it's incorporated in your comments on Russell. Any serious text analysis will expose that.

Who are we kidding. I've heard better bull shit from a 10 year old. It's one thing to argue a point... but it's another to try and analyze a poster with 3rd grade internet psychology... I'll never understand why some people always resort to the latter when they run out of things to add to a conversation.

[Crow]

OverRULED!

Can't measure mine with a ruler. Gotta account for the bend.

[raiderfreak7]

Can't measure mine with a ruler.

Try a microscope.

[Abelardo]

Who are we kidding. I've heard better bull shit from a 10 year old. It's one thing to argue a point... but it's another to try and analyze a poster with 3rd grade internet psychology... I'll never understand why some people always resort to the latter when they run out of things to add to a conversation.

I can you see you have heard better BS in your terms from a 10 years old, watching your ideas develope, you possibly may be used to that stuff. The words and terms you use, tell more than you think. That's why your texts are easy to break. Your logic and language seem primitive, and as for this case, always end up in the "NO training camp" argument.

Nobody will do that serious analysis I was talking about your texts cos it would be useless, but many guys can notice the synthesis: You're against the kid for some reason. This is what the text analysis should prove. In the meantime it's noticeable a lack of arguments and an excess of hard feelings. They turn slowly into sassy insults, and they tell things abouot you.

You have a lot of things to understand and not only about football. I suggest more reading and writing, so at least the insults get a little more quality. It won't do no harm to you. I'd be encouraged to post more interesting stuff if you try to make a better case out of such limited concepts.

I've seen you like the insults, but I've seen better. Comparing me to a 10 year old boy, wow! how hard! I haven't said nothing really strong yet and seems you're already running out of effective analogies? Cmon, hit me with your best shot... Let's make this really interesting.

[007]

It's a crappy time of year to throw in the personal stuff guys. As much as I want to jump in and get involved, I agree with Bones that we can all do better.

Lets get pumped to watch our rookie Franchise QB rip it up tomorrow morning.

I think we can all get get on board for that. (I hope)

[RHC]

Here's the deal, people. Next year when we're sitting at 0-6, I'll be so happy to think back and say to myself:

"Gosh, you know, those guys were right. I'm so glad I coughed up more than $200 of my hard-earned money for the Ticket last year so I could watch my team get dismantled on a regular basis while we nurtured Russell's fragile little mind and made sure he didn't get any stains on his jersey."

"And now I get to do it all over again because Russell still doesn't know what he's doing. Gosh golly, I love pouring my money, heart and soul into my team like this."

"But hey, we really had hope last year going into the Jacksonville game, didn't we?? Man, that was exciting! That kind of stuff will sustain you for years and years. That's the kind of thing you tell to your grandkids when you're putting them to bed at night! Man, that was special."

"Plus it really was therapeutic for all the players when we sent McCown out there again to do his magic. And isn't that what it's all about? I bet those players feel great, just like I do!!"

Too many people around here sound like Lions fans to me.

[Abelardo]

SoCalRaider:

This thing has gone too far, and I really don't see the need to continue for such a small bussiness. In the long term we agree more than disagree as I have seen. My apologies for any offensive stuff.

[Crow]

We drafted a big, raw, dummy. I don't anticipate him being the guy that puts us over next year. What we do on defense and at RB will decide where we are. Best we can hope for regarding Russell is that he just doesn't fuck things up when the D and ground game are working. Whether he plays now or not really isn't going to make much difference, if any. 2 games aren't going to make the difference with this guy.

[CrossBones]

I think you have a point Crush...but the thing is a lot of fans, me included, are giving Kiffin the benefit of the doubt. Plenty of time to revert back to the "we suck" takes"...I'm sure I'll be one of the first. But right now I see some improvement and hope for next season. I wanted Russell to start beginning in week nine. It's a little troubling that he "isn't ready" to hand the ball off like McCown is for the most part but I'm still giving Kiffin the benefit of the doubt. To me he has a plan. He's trying like hell to stick to his plan. Whether that is from stubbornness or from a well thought out plan is up for debate. I can't fault him for sticking to his plan. If he fails and if Russell isn't able to take the reins next season well I guess I'll second guess him as much as the next guy.

Just my opinion but hell I can see where you're coming from too. I didn't make the trip to Oakland even once this year. Not willing to throw down that kind of money like I have the last three years and simply have no fun (other than be with firends).

We'll see how things look next season but I have my eye on an AFCWF/KFFL shindig in New Orleans in 2008. ;)

[007]

We drafted a big, raw, dummy. I don't anticipate him being the guy that puts us over next year.

Not many second year QB's ever dictated how a team does. Not Manning. Not Favre. Not Montana. Not Palmer. Not Elway. Not Bradshaw.

It usually isnt a race when you draft a QB, especially when you've been the worst team in the league for five years.

What we do on defense and at RB will decide where we are.

Same can be said for every franchise in the NFL. Defence and a running game. Sound QB play and good coaching. It's a pretty basic recipe. We havent really followed it lately.

Best we can hope for regarding Russell is that he just doesn't fuck things up when the D and ground game are working. Whether he plays now or not really isn't going to make much difference, if any. 2 games aren't going to make the difference with this guy.

Wrong. The best we can hope for, is that he's good enough to carry us when our team is lower in talent. Brady, Manning, Favre, Roethlisberger and even guys like McNabb, Romo and Hasselbeck, the so called franchise guys, always find ways to compete when they shouldnt. Thats what good QB's do for franchises. They give you a chance to hang in there and battle...To make the throws when they have to. I doubt Al Davis drafted JR to be a guy who 'doesnt lose the game' for the Raiders. They drafted him to be the guy who leads us.

That's why teams draft QB's first overall, more often than not.

He's got the talent and the ceiling to be mentioned with the top tier guys. Let's just hope he delivers.

[BigTron]

When JaMarcus is finally comfortable defense's are not going to be able to stack the box. Kiffin's committed run game + big armed/hard to sack JaMarcus = problems for the NFL. If we can add some more players to this talented young D I wont be shocked if we are a major threat in 2 years. JR seems to have all the talent in the world, his attitude seems good too. He seems kinda religious to me? Never a bad thing in an athlete...i suppose? At least we dont seem to have to worry about any off the field antics. Thats some good traits to have in your leader. Talent + good attitude. I may be a homer but i expect alot from this guy. Gruden said his work out was "Star Wars", AL compared him to Elway, Sapp said he cant wait until he takes over...am I that wrong to think this kid might be a special QB in the league?

[Crow]

Wrong. The best we can hope for, is that he's good enough to carry us when our team is lower in talent. Brady, Manning, Favre, Roethlisberger and even guys like McNabb, Romo and Hasselbeck, the so called franchise guys, always find ways to compete when they shouldnt. Thats what good QB's do for franchises. They give you a chance to hang in there and battle...To make the throws when they have to. I doubt Al Davis drafted JR to be a guy who 'doesnt lose the game' for the Raiders. They drafted him to be the guy who leads us.

That's why teams draft QB's first overall, more often than not.

He's got the talent and the ceiling to be mentioned with the top tier guys. Let's just hope he delivers.

Sounds like pipe dreaming to me.

QBs that can carry a team are very few and very far between. If we're counting on Russell being that guy, we're in a world of shit.

If he can be the guy that converts 3rd downs, protects the ball, hits open receivers consistently, and hits the homerun when the opportunity is there, that's all w can reasonably ask for. His physical tools don't mean a damn thing if he can't deliver the basics.

[CrossBones]

Sounds like pipe dreaming to me. :mad:

QBs that can carry a team are very few and very far between. If we're counting on Russell being that guy, we're in a world of shit.You don't know he can't. None of us do. What if, just what if he comes out and lights it up? It could happen? Can we jsut dream for a little while?

If he can be the guy that converts 3rd downs, protects the ball, hits open receivers consistently, and hits the homerun when the opportunity is there, that's all w can reasonably ask for. His physical tools don't mean a damn thing if he can't deliver the basics.Well that was profound. :p

[Crow]

:mad:
Your string is showing...

You don't know he can't. None of us do.
Very true. But ya gotta admit, the odds are stacked firmly against it. It's hard enough to find a good QB. Finding one who can carry a team on his back is next to impossible. I would argue that, other than Brady, such a QB may not even exist in the NFL.

What if, just what if he comes out and lights it up? It could happen? Can we jsut dream for a little while?
Go for it. Too many wrinkles in the bed for me. Plus, the pillow smells like unwashed hair.

Well that was profound. :p
I'm like...deep and stuff.

[RHC]

We drafted a big, raw, dummy. I don't anticipate him being the guy that puts us over next year. What we do on defense and at RB will decide where we are. Best we can hope for regarding Russell is that he just doesn't fuck things up when the D and ground game are working. Whether he plays now or not really isn't going to make much difference, if any. 2 games aren't going to make the difference with this guy.I rep'd you but it was grudging. I hate when you put all my fears down on the screen.

Bastard.

[raider60]

Commissioner Roger Goodell: With the tenth pick in the 2008 draft, the Oakland Raiders select the quarterback from Heaven, Jesus Christ.

Crow: Unbelievable—the guy’s ancient, a big dummy, and has never proven he’s a winner on any level. Couldn’t even hold his own team together—look at Judas (and when he blows up for the Broncos, remember I started the Judas Jihad). Al Davis strikes again--

:rolleyes:

[RaiderIVlife]

Commissioner Roger Goodell: With the tenth pick in the 2008 draft, the Oakland Raiders select the quarterback from Heaven, Jesus Christ.

Crow: Unbelievable—the guy’s ancient, a big dummy, and has never proven he’s a winner on any level. Couldn’t even hold his own team together—look at Judas (and when he blows up for the Broncos, remember I started the Judas Jihad). Al Davis strikes again--

:rolleyes:

LMFAO

Rep !!!!

[Crow]

Commissioner Roger Goodell: With the tenth pick in the 2008 draft, the Oakland Raiders select the quarterback from Heaven, Jesus Christ.

Crow: Unbelievable—the guy’s ancient, a big dummy, and has never proven he’s a winner on any level. Couldn’t even hold his own team together—look at Judas (and when he blows up for the Broncos, remember I started the Judas Jihad). Al Davis strikes again--

:rolleyes:
He'd be another Ricky Williams. The dude was a hippie. No way he'd pass a piss test.

I hear he made a really great wine, though. :rolleyes: