Porter favors not throwing No.1 to lions [Archive]

jatfly

11-07-2007, 05:38 AM

Porter favors not throwing No.1 to lions
Column by Monte Poole
Article Last Updated: 11/05/2007 02:34:44 AM PST

http://www.insidebayarea.com/sports/ci_7374769 (http://www.insidebayarea.com/sports/ci_7374769)

OAKLAND — The question was posed to several Raiders in a relatively subdued locker room, where their fourth straight defeat sat in their stomachs like a spoonful of tacks.

What would you say to those fans clamoring to see JaMarcus Russell on the field?
The answers were mostly diplomatic, from veteran fullback Justin Griffith's plea for patience, to rookie defensive end Jay Richardson's long pause and heavy sigh before he eventually begged off.
"I'll let the coach explain that one," Richardson said with a grin.
Jerry Porter was by contrast unflinching, as pointed as a spear.
"Shut up!" he said.

"I'd tell them to shut the (heck) up," Porter reiterated. "And I mean it. Write it."
Porter conceded that quarterback Josh McCown was less than sharp during Sunday's 24-17 loss to Houston. McCown completed 13 of 28 passes, for 158 yards, throwing three interceptions while barely avoiding a fourth.

The boos were out of line, according to Porter, perhaps more misplaced than the strident demands for Russell, Oakland's 22-year-old quarterbackof the future.
"I hate it," Porter said of the booing at McAfee Coliseum. "I'm (bleeping) sick of it.
"No, Josh did not have his best game. But ... if we put (Russell) in too early, and things don't go the way everybody wants them to go, he could end up getting booed. Then what? If that happens, it could be Akili Smith all over again."

Like Russell, Smith was an early entry into the
NFL, drafted No.3 overall out of Oregon in 1999 by Cincinnati to be its quarterback of the future. Smith, like Russell, missed nearly all of preseason camp. Smith then floated in on a cloud of confidence, took the field and failed miserably.
Out of the NFL since 2002, he is a cautionary tale of the heralded talent prematurely placed on stage.

Porter implied the Bengals' careful handling of their next franchise quarterback was proof they learned from the Smith experiment.
"They gave Carson Palmer enough time to develop (behind veteran Jon Kitna) and didn't put him out there until he had his best chance to succeed," Porter said.

I then asked Porter if he understood the level of frustration running through the aisles of the Coliseum?
"Like we're not?" he snapped. "Nobody's more pissed off than the people in this room. We work our asses off every week, Monday to Saturday, and when we lose, it sucks. Think that's what we want?

"But for it to be like this? We're at home, but it feels like a damn road game."

Porter, in his eighth season, has played for five head coaches, from Jon Gruden to Lane Kiffin. Only tackle Barry Sims has been a Raider longer than JP, who has heard disapproval directed at every man to take a snap in Oakland.
"They even booed Rich Gannon here," Porter recalled.
Just last year, Porter himself was singled out for boos. Art Shell took over as head coach, the two clashed from the start, and the result was a silly, destructive cold war for which Porter took much of the blame. But this latest diss clearly got under Porter's skin.
Disturbed as much by the lack of support for McCown as the pleas for Russell, Porter was animated in voicing his disappointment in the fans.
Understand, the Raiders all heard the chants, felt and heard the boos. How could they not? Noise rumbled down like rocks on upon the tender heads of a battered team in crisis.

Many in the announced crowd of 49,603 spent the afternoon expressing disgust with McCown, while imploring Kiffin to insert Russell. When they weren't chanting, "Rus-sell, Rus-sell, Rus-sell," they were booing McCown.

"As bad as the fans feel right now, as much as they hate me, they don't understand how I feel," McCown said. "Nobody in this room wants to feel like I do right now. Trust me. It's a sick, hurt feeling that you can't describe."

Maybe that's what's happening here. Maybe Porter's fury and McCown's agony personify the pain felt within the Raider Nation but more acutely among those who wear the uniform. The Nation bleeds Silver and Black, but the Raiders leave blood on the turf.

"I understand where they're coming from. They're hungry for something to spark us," running back Justin Fargas said of the fans. "But it's discouraging to hear that at home."

The chants for Russell came six weeks after the chants were for Daunte Culpepper, who took over when McCown sustained a broken foot in mid-September. Culpepper started four games, went 1-3 and was back on the bench Sunday as McCown made his first start since Sept.23.

The starter next week, assuming it's not Russell, likely will be no more than one interception from open disapproval. What neither Porter nor his teammates might know is this is a sad tradition in Oakland, dating back nearly 30 years, to the profoundly unpopular Dan Pastorini.

If Raiders fans can find it within themselves to boo Gannon, who won an MVP and led the Raiders to the Super Bowl, is anyone safe?
Might be fair to consider this at the next sighting of McCown or Culpepper. Or any time a fan wants fresh meat and demands a young quarterback.

( jatfly notes: Porter is right but we are about the point in the season where he is gonna have to get some time in to be ready to start next year.)

Raidermania12

11-07-2007, 06:28 AM

Actually Porter is 100 percent right. And he shouldnt see the field at all this year. Though I dont that calms people down.

poptart

11-07-2007, 07:00 AM

Despite the stereotype, Raider fans are among the most loyal, passionate and INTELLIGENT in all of pro sports.

This is a VERY proud franchise with proud fans who are not accustomed to being kicked around like a can.

4-12
5-11
4-12
2-14
2-6

Yep, fans are OUT of patience.

No patience left to watch back-up material QBs flounder and flop around on the field, lobbing weak-armed throws up into crowds of defenders.

Fucking makes me sick.

Porter may be right about Russell though.
Gotta think long-term about how you deal with him.

Until Russell takes snaps though, whoever is hacking around as Raider QB can expect to hear the boo birds when he craps the bed.

Swords

11-07-2007, 07:02 AM

It's refreshing to see Porter stick up for McNoun AND Russell.

but the tree falling deep in the forest is noone mentioning Walter.

hawaiianboy

11-07-2007, 10:09 AM

Curry agress with him FWIW:

Building a Russell-friendly system

Posted by Jerry McDonald - NFL Writer on Tuesday at 2:33 pm
It's interesting to note that both starting wide receivers, who would stand to benefit the most from having JaMarcus Russell on the field, think it's too soon to put the rookie in a game.

Following Sunday's 24-17 loss to Houston, wide receiver Jerry Porter told Oakland Tribune columnist Monte Poole anyone calling for Russell at this point should "shut the (heck) up. And I mean it. Write it."

He wasn't speaking only out of anger following a loss. Porter talked about how the Bengals rushed No. 3 overall pick Akili Smith, and then later took their time with No. 1 overall pick Carson Palmer.

"They gave Carson Palmer enough time to develop (behind Jon Kitna) and din't put him out there until he had the best chance to succeed," Porter said.

A day later, Curry, speaking with the Santa Rosa Press Democrat, seemed in agreement.

"I don't think the offense is to the point where you want to put your franchise player out there and end his career before it gets started," Curry said. "Until we get something stable on offense to where he can come in and perform to his abilities, I don't think this offense will help him out . . . I don't think it will be a comfortable situation for him, personally."

I gotta kind of read this as the receivers saying that JaMarcus just isn't on the same page as everyone else yet...

Abelardo

11-07-2007, 11:33 AM

Raider fans are not lambs. Modern players suck, they're a bunch of crying babies making millions, many of them without deserving.

Raider fans don't take shit. If pros believe we're gonna support players just because theyre wearing the uniform they're dead wrong. It has been like that forever, not now.

Raider fans will boo players of their choice until they play good, or leave; and even then, fans keep their right to express their feelings, loud and clear. They paid for it.

Raider fans distinguish themselves for their passion, not for their acceptance of bad stuff just because it's wrapped in silver and black.

Raider fans can fill up 10 stadiums, but will go to the Oakland Coliseum (???? sorry, I like the name) only when a good show is on display.

Raider fans support the beer bussiness. (I prefer Corona).

Some other Raider fans support other bussiness I will not mention because of legal stuff.

Raider fans usually take care of their dogs (OK, I can't prove this).

Raidermania12

11-07-2007, 01:56 PM

Curry agress with him FWIW:

I gotta kind of read this as the receivers saying that JaMarcus just isn't on the same page as everyone else yet...

i read it as "dont bring a rookie into a house thats falling apart."...This offense has the potential to give him some serious lumps as is. I would contend that Payton Manning had a better o-line and rb than what we have in his first year(healthy Marshall Faulk taking up 86 safe receptions giving him over 2,000 yards of total offense is always a big help). That isnt counting a young marcus pollard, young marvin harrison, and jerome pathon(wr's with enough speed to get separation unlike ours).

Fargas has only played one game as a starter, so we dont know what we have yet from him. Also Bush hasn't seen time yet. Until we prove that we can run the ball against all teams, theres no room for Russell to play.

Langlier

11-08-2007, 02:26 AM

id be ok with russell playing... but doing so against the bears isnt the best idea. when kiff puts him in i'll think hes ready.

R4Life

11-08-2007, 09:12 AM

Jordan doesn't want any trouble

ALAMEDA – LaMont Jordan isn’t one to bite his tongue.

But when he does, there’s usually a reason.

Jordan was candid about being benched and not liking it. He also blamed himself for not playing better.

He said he didn’t find out the rotation would change so much until gameday in Nashville against the Tennessee Titans.

A week later, Jordan was No. 2 behind Justin Fargas.

When asked about the Raiders’ quarterback situation – specifically Josh McCown being booed and the calls for JaMarcus Russell – Jordan was uncharacteristically bland because his comments might get him “in trouble.”

That’s the first public sign, albeit veiled, that the locker room is tired of the McCown era and is ready for Russell.

Jordan never says anything just to say it. He’s smart enough to know when a no comment says a lot.

Whether Kiffin likes it or not, it might be time for the future to see the field soon.

poptart

11-08-2007, 09:50 AM

RHC

11-08-2007, 10:33 AM

R4Life

11-08-2007, 10:38 AM

Kiffin gives a ton of good reasons, Porter gave a few and so did Curry. I'll take their word for it.

raiderfreak7

11-08-2007, 10:39 AM

When you're Kiffin you have to look at the "only 2 games behind in the division" aspect of it if he doesn't want to lose his locker room.

R4Life

11-08-2007, 10:43 AM

From ESPN

It is always difficult to know when it's time to throw a rookie QB into the fray and let him play. This has to be a question the Oakland Raiders mull over on a daily basis regarding prized rookie QB JaMarcus Russell.

The Raiders are now at the halfway point of the season and at 2-6, the question becomes when will Russell see the field? It's tough to say when Russell will be ready, but had he been in camp early on and not missed the entire preseason, he would be more prepared than he is at this moment.

Still, the one thing you can't ever do is just throw a rookie QB out there before he is ready to play. There have been some success stories such as Peyton Manning and Troy Aikman. These were guys who played as rookies and were able to battle back from tough starts. However, there are far many more cases of QBs that ended up failing because they were handed the reigns before they were ready. Some of these guys might have been busts regardless, but Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Cade McNown, Ryan Leaf, among others, are just a few examples of guys that were probably thrown into the fray before the time was right. They weren't ready, they got hit often, the media and fans often reminded them of their failures and they were never ever really able to recover.

...there's more but I'm not an Insider

RHC

11-08-2007, 10:43 AM

McKlown played like @ss last game.

Hey, I've been around, and I've seen a LOT of shit play from Raider QBs over the years, but Joke McKlown's performance v. Houston was about as bad as it's ever been.

The little half-wit seems to have no realization of the fact that he is NOT a playmaker.
Weak-arming the ball into crowds of players trying to 'make something happen' I guess.
The little talent-lacking douchebag fancies himself as some sort of modern day Randall Cunningham.

All Kiffin really expects of his QB right now is to just TAKE CARE OF THE FOOTBALL, and yet here we have this inbred hairbrain Hanson boy running around out there like a chicken with his head cut off.

I wanted to fucking kill him.
Cut his fingers off and feed them to my fish.

If he stinks it up v. Chicago I'd bet mucho money that Kiffin pulls the plug on his act for the rest of the season.

Inbred mountain boy better damn well take his meds before this upcoming game or something very bad is gonna happen.Now THAT got the rep.

Does anyone think we're fans because we like the city of Oakland, or automatically have respect for any idiot who puts on a black shirt, or any coach who thinks they're doing the right thing even though we have a 2-6 record??

Fuck that. Fuck Porter, fuck Curry and fuck Kiffin. I'd have all the patience in the world if "the next coming" was out there on the field and we were losing. Why? Because it would be productive and I can't wait to see him operate. It makes a game worth watching.

And right now I'm fucking bored to death watching this abortion. This team has no heart. Instead of pissing ang moaning, how 'bout shutting your fucking yap at least until you hit the fucing 500-yd receiving mark.

If you want to stick with what's out there then maybe you should go out and make some plays for the stupid fuck.

Don't defend the indefensible. It's a waste of my time.

RHC

11-08-2007, 10:46 AM

Kiffin gives a ton of good reasons, Porter gave a few and so did Curry. I'll take their word for it.So you like the excuse that "Russell is a weak-minded pussy so we don't want to put him in until we have NE's o-line, plus Tomlinson running the ball for him, T.O. at WR and Gates at TE."

What the fuck is this, group therapy? There's no fucking crying in football. Man up, go out there and make some progress.

RHC

11-08-2007, 10:50 AM

When you're Kiffin you have to look at the "only 2 games behind in the division" aspect of it if he doesn't want to lose his locker room.That's the ONLY legit reason. But 2 more losses and it's a no-brainer.

But let me ask you this. Do you think Russell would do worse out there than McCown's 39 rating with 3 picks against the garbage Texans??

IMO McCown and Culpepper are imminently replaceable by a star rookie at this point.

Let Russell go out there and win a couple of games before he takes the keys in 2008.

R4Life

11-08-2007, 10:51 AM

So you like the excuse that "Russell is a weak-minded pussy so we don't want to put him in until we have NE's o-line, plus Tomlinson running the ball for him, T.O. at WR and Gates at TE."

What the fuck is this, group therapy? There's no fucking crying in football. Man up, go out there and make some progress.

Dude,
Swearing and exaggeration do not an apt point make.

Don't put him in with out an average O Line, RB and receivers. Right now we only have an average RB group and below average O lines and receivers. Let the rest of the talent level catch up to him b4 he goes all Akili on us to try and save an unsavable season.

RHC

11-08-2007, 10:54 AM

However, there are far many more cases of QBs that ended up failing because they were handed the reigns before they were ready. That's an unbelievably presumptuous statement. To authoritatively draw a solid cause and effect line between starting as a rookie and sucking is myopic and simplistic in the extreme. And it's irresponsible.

There are other factors out there that just might have had something to do with those QBs washing out.

Like idiocy, among other things. You can cover that up in college but they'll make you pay dearly for it in the NFL.

RHC

11-08-2007, 10:57 AM

Dude,
Swearing and exaggeration do not an apt point make.

Don't put him in with out an average O Line, RB and receivers. Right now we only have an average RB group and below average O lines and receivers. Let the rest of the talent level catch up to him b4 he goes all Akili on us to try and save an unsavable season.If you ask me this place needs more swearing and less excuse-making.

It's old and stale.

Jack's sore libido

11-08-2007, 10:59 AM

When you're Kiffin you have to look at the "only 2 games behind in the division" aspect of it if he doesn't want to lose his locker room.

Interesting point, considering the Chiefs might have lost Larry Johnson for the year and the Chargers still have Norv Turner.

R4Life

11-08-2007, 11:05 AM

If you ask me this place needs more swearing and less excuse-making.

It's old and stale.

Pissing bitching and moaning is a breath of fresh air?
Run that drag to someone else. It takes less effort and thought to criticize without construction than it does to support your struggling team and look for solutions instead of dressing down the problem.

Most blogs are rife with meely-mouthed ignoramuses who offer vitriol and call it "keepin' it real". I enjoy this blog for the thoughtful input of it's members. We all know how bad this sucks RHC - but I've never seen deconstruction build damn thing.

Boo if you want, but I'll wait for the opportunity to cheer.

RHC

11-08-2007, 11:12 AM

Pissing bitching and moaning is a breath of fresh air?
Run that drag to someone else. It takes less effort and thought to criticize without construction than it does to support your struggling team and look for solutions instead of dressing down the problem.

Most blogs are rife with meely-mouthed ignoramuses who offer vitriol and call it "keepin' it real". I enjoy this blog for the thoughtful input of it's members. We all know how bad this sucks RHC - but I've never seen deconstruction build damn thing.

Boo if you want, but I'll wait for the opportunity to cheer.I've criticized constructively until I'm blue in the face. Now I'm just pissed.

Especially with the "meely-mouthed" attitude that we shouldn't start our huge, rifle-armed rookie star because he might get mentally distraught.

So take that drag somewhere else.

007

11-08-2007, 11:18 AM

Myopic?

Vitriol?

Presumptuous?

Some big time words going on here.

You guys lost me 10 posts ago... ;)

Rupert

11-08-2007, 11:26 AM

Hmmmmmmmm. Okay, let me extend Kiffin's comment for those who don't get coach-speak.

Kiffin said Russell isn't ready - translation - Russell doesn't have all his progressions down in the passing game.

Kiffin said we don't have a complete offense to put him in - translation - the OL isn't going to protect him every play, the WR's and TE's aren't going to get open every play, and penalties are going to put him in bad situations.

What happens when you put the two together? Russell could get hammered if he forgets the progression. If he's not 100% certain of the progression and the WR doesn't get open when he's supposed to, he could begin to doubt his knowledge during the game, causing him to hold the ball and get hammered even if the line does it's job. The next time they run that play, he might not follow the progression since he isn't certain of it or the receiver running the route. You get cascade failures that give us the vapor lock we saw on Walter last season.

The solution is simple, get Russell ready as quickly as you can. You know we need to upgrade the position. You know we need him to be truly ready before we throw him out there. You can't put him out there too soon, but at some point you have to give him enough work and show a little confidence in him and the work done.

Kiffin won't put Russell out there before he's ready for two reasons: 1) it will slow down Russell's development, 2) it will show questionable judgement on his part.

Deciding to put Russell in is tough. You can't do it too soon, and you shouldn't wait too long.

Question Kiffin all you like, but if you trust anything he's already done, I say you need to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one too.

R4Life

11-08-2007, 11:42 AM

Rep to Rup
I like that drag...

hawaiianboy

11-08-2007, 01:05 PM

Myopic?

Vitriol?

Presumptuous?

Some big time words going on here.

I know... I feel like the slow kid in class all of a sudden... Time to take it up a notch and get me some word of the day toilet paper... and a British accent... oh and a monocle... Guys with Brit accents and monocles always sound smart....

If you ask me this place needs more swearing and less excuse-making.

I've never been much for cussing... It's uncouth, especially if you have a British accent and wear a monocle...

It's old and stale.

That's just Bones... it may smell like stale beer and feet, but I assure you, that's just Bones... You kind of get used to it and embrace the funk after awhile...

If we didn't start JaMarcus last week, we won't start him till the first week of December when we get the Donx at home IMO.... A rookie is going to get blitzed and blitzed some more till he proves he can audible and make the correct hot reads... Knowing that, I don't know if it wouldn't be foolish to start a virgin QB out in Minny's dome or at Arrowhead where the crowd noise is a major factor... Having to run plays using silent counts and audibling against that crowd noise isn't exactly going to be a QB friendly environment, especially for a guy that didn't even get a preseason game snap...

I'd like to get him a series or two a game with the idea he'll get the full time go at it vs the Donx... In fact the best thing to do may be get him work in a two minute drill where a series of plays are called, he can work out of the shotgun, the ball is snapped on first count and where the defense isn't going to have the chance to do anything exotic...

GRaider

11-08-2007, 01:15 PM

It's refreshing to see Porter stick up for McNoun AND Russell.

but the tree falling deep in the forest is noone mentioning Walter.

Haven't you heard? We are keeping him to be a backup next year but he is not good enough to be a backup this year.:pound:

RHC

11-08-2007, 01:29 PM

Hmmmmmmmm. Okay, let me extend Kiffin's comment for those who don't get coach-speak.

Kiffin said Russell isn't ready - translation - Russell doesn't have all his progressions down in the passing game.No rookie QBs ever do. And neither do 2nd year QBs, especially if they sat out their entire rookie season. OJT is the best solution to this problem.

Kiffin said we don't have a complete offense to put him in - translation - the OL isn't going to protect him every play, the WR's and TE's aren't going to get open every play, and penalties are going to put him in bad situations.:eek: *GASP*

No NFL QB should EVER be put into "bad situations!!" Things like that are just unheard of!!

You win, I'm a fool.
What happens when you put the two together? Russell could get hammered if he forgets the progression.Or he could remember the progression and make the play. Or he could improvise, roll out and use that monster arm to make something out of nothing. Or he could pull it down and run for the 1st down. Or he could..... ad infinitum...
You get cascade failures that give us the vapor lock we saw on Walter last season.If Russell is Andrew Walter we're completely fucked. If he's not, which he isn't, then predicting the kind of vapor lock you're talking about is nothing but mental masturbation.
The solution is simple, get Russell ready as quickly as you can. You know we need to upgrade the position. You know we need him to be truly ready before we throw him out there.No QB is ever "truly ready" for their first game. Hell, maybe we should sit him for 5 years. Maybe he'd be "truly ready" then.
Question Kiffin all you like, but if you trust anything he's already done, I say you need to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one too. What's to trust? A 2-6 record just doesn't instill a lot of trust now, does it? He's not exactly pulling a Sean Payton here.

But hey, thanks for the life-changing lesson in coach-speak. It was fascinating.

CrossBones

11-08-2007, 01:58 PM

I sense the Raider Nation is completely and utterly frustrated beyond all recognition. :p

And we should be.

Play Russell. As a few have said there is very little chance Russell could do any worse than Culpepper and McCown. The future appears to be now.

R4Life

11-08-2007, 02:14 PM

You don't bring out the nice China and crystal to the Kid's table, folks. Russell is too valuable to risk with without a serious upside.
KK's plan A was to have McCown/Culpepper succeed enough to sit JR all year. Playing JR is like plan C at best. If wwe see him before the last four games, I would consider it very bad news.

RaiderIVlife

11-08-2007, 04:02 PM

Baptism by fire baby, baptism by fire.

If he plays and flounders badly, we can always pull him. I'd like to see him get some actual experience on this field in 2007 so that he can hit the ground running this offseason.

Rupert

11-08-2007, 04:19 PM

RHC: I've seen the error of my ways. You're right. I'll call Al and tell him to fire Kiffin and hire you. Quit your job, sell your house, divorce the wife, sell the kids, and move to Oakland immediately. You're gonna be a star bro. In 2020 they'll be calling it the RHC Trophy.

Madturk

11-08-2007, 04:23 PM

It's the proverbial Jewish dilemna, free ham. We won't win another game this year with McClown under center

CrossBones

11-08-2007, 04:36 PM

Who said it? Fuck Porter. Since when is that idiot an authority on who should be playing? He can STFU and concentrate on catching footballs on Sunday. Maybe, just maybe, if JaMarcus was in there he could get you the ball you fuckin' dip shit. :spank:

Rupert

11-08-2007, 04:47 PM

It's the proverbial Jewish dilemna, free ham. We won't win another game this year with McClown under center
If we do it will be in spite of him. That's why I'm in favor of putting a LOT of effort into getting Russell ready. Give Russell 1st team reps in practice. Seriously. Give the majority of them to him. How many reps does it take for Kiffin to know McCown's accuracy will never improve? McCown's got the poise of a veteran and the accuracy of a high schooler, okay college freshman. Once Russell is where Culpepper was it's time to get him in. And I would do it just like Culpepper, in the 2nd half after we've seen what their guys are doing.

HB added the one thing I left out, the blitzes from the opposition that increase for rookie QB's. That would make our running game suffer too. I trust Kiffin to do the right thing. When he said he thought about using Russell against Texas it says he thinks Russell is close.

Abelardo

11-08-2007, 06:28 PM

How can experience be a bad thing in football? There's no adequate moment to start a QB, it's always, always a gamble. They all started as rookies you know.

Rusell ain't ready, OK I concede. Is Kiffin also ready to coach pro football? Why he isn't using the same logic? I would like to see some consistency here, otherwise he should quit and take a few more learning years in the NCAA and then in the NFL as assistant coach.

Next year won't be much different. What makes you think the 2008 Raiders will offer Russell a substantially superior support? If not, are they gonna wait till 2009 when the conditions are OK?

He is tougher than McCown and Culpepper, his body frame is bigger. Nothing bad is gonna happen if he take some sacks. He will learn something of it.

In the end, I mean, he is not a baby. Stop babysitting him. He can play, as thousands of rookies have been doing for decades. He may not give you full pro performance, but what we want is to get him ready as soon as possible, and there's no other way to learn to play: you have to play.

SoCalRaider

11-08-2007, 06:40 PM

Next year won't be much different. What makes you think the 2008 Raiders will offer Russell a substantially superior support?

I'm not sure it's a supporting cast thang as much as it is a getting up to speed with the pro game. I really think getting a full training camp and preseason is vital. Last thing you want to do is throw him out in a trainwreck and then suddenly start have to break bad habits next offseason. Patience could really be a virtue here.

If not, are they gonna wait till 2009 when the conditions are OK?

You won't see any ROI til then anyways. If you play the percentages, Russell won't have much of an impact in '08 (which will really be his rookie season in my opinion). I think '09 is when you bust out the measuring stick and look to really see if he has it or not. It's a bummer that this season got flushed down the toilet like it has.... but 2 wrongs don't make it right either.

Nothing bad is gonna happen if he take some sacks. He will learn something of it.

This is where I think you're being a little near-sighted. The Vikes rookie QB was literally inches away from getting killed on a QB scramble this Sunday. If he slides, no harm done... but when you're new to the game, new to the speed of the defense, new to the system, new to the playbook, new to making a read, and new to everythang else.... you tend to forget that you're in the big leagues and running head first into the defense could be a career mistake... This is where breaking somebody in during the preseason can be a really valuable learning experience.

Raidermania12

11-08-2007, 06:48 PM

Next year won't be much different. What makes you think the 2008 Raiders will offer Russell a substantially superior support?
Superior is a strong word. It needs to be adequate. The Colts offense wasnt Superior when they threw in Manning, but they were adequate.

007

11-08-2007, 07:01 PM

Right now Russell's 2008 supporting cast would be mediocre at best.

Adding a free agent OL or two, and a dynamic playmaker through the draft would go a long way.

Another year of everyone learning the system would help too.

Abelardo

11-08-2007, 07:02 PM

I'm not sure it's a supporting cast thang as much as it is a getting up to speed with the pro game. I really think getting a full training camp and preseason is vital. Last thing you want to do is throw him out in a trainwreck and then suddenly start have to break bad habits next offseason. Patience could really be a virtue here.

Yeah that's the ideal stuff. But as in many other aspects in life, there's always little chance to be full prepared. You have to go when you have to go. Life won't wait for you to be ready.

You won't see any ROI til then anyways. If you play the percentages, Russell won't have much of an impact in '08 (which will really be his rookie season in my opinion). I think '09 is when you bust out the measuring stick and look to really see if he has it or not. It's a bummer that this season got flushed down the toilet like it has.... but 2 wrongs don't make it right either.

OK, no but again, wa want him there to get experience not to be an immediate impact player.

This is where I think you're being a little near-sighted. The Vikes rookie QB was literally inches away from getting killed on a QB scramble this Sunday. If he slides, no harm done... but when you're new to the game, new to the speed of the defense, new to the system, new to the playbook, new to making a read, and new to everythang else.... you tend to forget that you're in the big leagues and running head first into the defense could be a career mistake... This is where breaking somebody in during the preseason can be a really valuable learning experience.

Cmon, football is a contact sport. Every player is in big risk, young or old. they know it and that's one of the reasons because they're getting millions. A coach can't go beyond setting rules to protect them, the player will always do something of their own trying to make a play. And that's a part of the mistery of football. Nobody really knows what's gonna be like, until the player takes some snaps. Everybody had a first time. I really can't understand why such a cautious approach, while lots of other young players take reps because the situation asks for it. Its almost religious the denial to let him play. I bet even Al wants to see him there.

SoCalRaider

11-08-2007, 07:20 PM

Yeah that's the ideal stuff. But as in many other aspects in life, there's always little chance to be full prepared. You have to go when you have to go. Life won't wait for you to be ready.

That's the thing... Russell doesn't "have to go" anywhere this year... and the Raiders can wait for him to be ready....

Cmon, football is a contact sport. Every player is in big risk, young or old. they know it and that's one of the reasons because they're getting millions. A coach can't go beyond setting rules to protect them, the player will always do something of their own trying to make a play. And that's a part of the mistery of football. Nobody really knows what's gonna be like, until the player takes some snaps. Everybody had a first time. I really can't understand why such a cautious approach, while lots of other young players take reps because the situation asks for it. Its almost religious the denial to let him play. I bet even Al wants to see him there.

I'll never understand the comparisons to "other young players". Russell is the only young player who didn't participate in training camp or preseason. Russell is the only young player yet to take a 1st team snap as of last week. Count me in as one of the guys who thinks you should learn how to walk before you step foot on a race track...

Rupert

11-08-2007, 08:53 PM

Superior is a strong word. It needs to be adequate. The Colts offense wasnt Superior when they threw in Manning, but they were adequate.
Well if you think of superior in a relative sense, if we turn out to be average next year we'll be superior to this year.

RHC

11-09-2007, 05:50 AM

CrossBones

11-09-2007, 07:28 AM

People, no risk, no reward. All this risk management shit is really tiresome. You're acting like statisticians and psychologists instead of hard-nosed football fans.I agree with this all the way. Some feel Russell was a complete waste of a draft pick. Some think he's going to be the next big thing. So what's all this babying of the guy? Throw him in there. Let's see what kind of moxie he has. We know and he knows that it's going to be tough. Or maybe just let him sit on the bench for the next two years while he "learns'? Bullshit. I'm tired of that crap. Put the fucker in there...sink or swim.

R4Life

11-09-2007, 10:48 AM

From another board - I just missed the interview...
Kiffin was on Jim Rome today and said " we'll probably see Jamarcus this year"

Rupert

11-09-2007, 05:33 PM

From another board - I just missed the interview...
Kiffin was on Jim Rome today and said " we'll probably see Jamarcus this year"
Probably? Definitely! Like I said somewhere before, getting him some meaningful action this year will do wonders for his off-season program, and will put him at least one leap ahead of going into the off-season without it.

It's not about risk management. It's about an intelligent development program. You don't throw a QB in there who isn't ready for even a scaled down role. If all you're going to do is hand off and throw a couple simplified pass routes it's not worth much at all. It has to be meaninful work. And if he's not ready for meaningful work, putting him out there is meaningless.

It has nothing to do with being a hard-nosed football fan and everything to do with developing a player correctly. Who thinks Cunningham or Vick were developed correctly? Pittsburgh threw on 37% of offensive snaps Roethlisberger's 1st season, then 41%, then 53%, now down to 45%. We're currently throwing 46% of the time, but I'm certain Kiffin would like to throw more often. If our running game were as tough as Pittsburgh's was and our defense as impenetrable, we could do what they did. We're nowhere near that level. I think Kiffin is being prudent while many are being impatient.

SoCalRaider

11-09-2007, 05:41 PM

It's not about risk management. It's about an intelligent development program. You don't throw a QB in there who isn't ready for even a scaled down role. If all you're going to do is hand off and throw a couple simplified pass routes it's not worth much at all. It has to be meaninful work. And if he's not ready for meaningful work, putting him out there is meaningless.

Agreed... the interesting part about our remaining schedule is that we'll be playing teams in contention, so they'll have every incentive to bring the house and try to destroy the rook. Just not sure having the rook face a bigtime blitz on every passing down is going to be more productive than letting him get his feet wet against the prototypical vanilla schemes in preseason play.

Rupert

11-09-2007, 06:07 PM

Agreed... the interesting part about our remaining schedule is that we'll be playing teams in contention, so they'll have every incentive to bring the house and try to destroy the rook. Just not sure having the rook face a bigtime blitz on every passing down is going to be more productive than letting him get his feet wet against the prototypical vanilla schemes in preseason play.
I really think it would be helpful to get some regular season action in. Where I made the point before I referenced a couple of the L.A. Kings rookies last season. And I mean rookies with zero pro experience, never been in the minors, never been to a pro camp, in other words two college kids. Both the players and the coaches said coming into camp this season that the regular season experience gave the players a head start on camp. They were a leap ahead of where they were when they arrived at the end of last season.

I think pre-season is a baby step for a college player, especially a QB. I said somewhere else that getting Russell real reps this season will give him tape of how his decisions and his throws worked and didn't work in live action. He won't have to think, "Well Culpepper didn't hit his mark as soon as I would, so I could hit the WR out of his break." He'll be able to say, "I need to release the ball sooner, or later, or continue the progression because that guy was covered." He'll have actual plays with him out there to break down in the off-season. DUDE! There's no substitute for it. NONE!

It's why I think having him use a completely dumbed down playbook is meaningless. Even if he doesn't know all the audibles, he has to know the progressions. If he blows an audible, he can see why he has to audible on tape. He can even see what he has to audible to. Again, it goes right back to his own decisions that he can go over in the off-season. He will grow much quicker when he knows what he saw and what he thought on the play. With anyone else out there, he has to guess what was thought, and guess how his skills would differ. He can't use tape of McCown to decide whether he could have fit a ball in, and he can't use tape of Pepper to decide on timing. Neither guy on tape helps him develop his game much. But he has to have enough of the offense for it to be really useful.

Rupert

11-09-2007, 06:10 PM

RaiderIVlife

11-09-2007, 07:50 PM

2007 has become the 2008 preseason. Any playing time, in any scenario, would be a good thing IMO.

I think JaMarcus Russell has the moxy to withstand the peaks and valleys (more valleys to be sure) of playing QB as a rookie, on this poor offensive team.

I'm just excited to hopefully get a glimpse of the future- for the future and hopefully Michael Bush is part of the equation.....

Raw as he may be, I bet he has a better shot at loosening up the defense than noodle-armed and wildly innacurate Josh McCown?

I'm confident that Russell as a rookie can match McCown for INT's. Bwahahahahaha

SoCalRaider

11-09-2007, 08:03 PM

About those opponents. It's why we bring him in for the 2nd half. If we're already down and out (and who wouldn't expect us to be with McCown throwing his usual complement of picks) the opponent is going to run on us and play vanilla defense until they need to stop us in the red zone. He'll get vanilla AND the kitchen sink. He'll get some success AND some adversity. I can't think of any better food to grow on. Can you?

I could definitely see where that makes some sense. If we can get him in situations where a defense is playing not to lose (i.e. prevent or 3 deep)... that could have some benefit. Here's to falling behind by 5 touchdowns. :D

RHC

11-10-2007, 04:10 PM

Fuck a development program. He was on one of the best teams in the nation in college. He played in the best conference in college. He played against the best defenses and won.

He was touted as the next John Elway. He can supposedly throw it 70 yds from his knees. He's fucking huge and supposedly nimble as well.

We drafted him #1 overall because we think he'll be one of the best QBs in the league. If you go #1 you'd better work your ass off, be tough, smart, accurate and mentally strong. If he's not all those things then he'll fail. And If he's not all those things he'll fail whether we play him now or not.

People, there is no direct correlation between playing a rookie QB early and having that QB "ruined." You think Couch sucked because he played his rookie year? That's stupid. You think Akili Smith went down the shitter because they started him as a rookie? Horseshit. Some guys are just lights-out in college and can't make the jump to the pro game. Some guys have the physical talent to dominate in college but are too stupid to do anything in the pros (I'm concerned Russell is one of these).

Russell was at all our minicamps and he's been with us for months now. He's got the earpiece on and the clipboard in his hand at games. He's been coached, he's had a playbook to study, meetings to attend, film to watch, conditioning to make him stronger, practices to run through, vets to talk to, knowledge to absorb all around him.

He demanded insane record money and flipped us the bird until we said uncle. Now he can start to fucking well earn it.

The rest of the 2007 season is the best possible development program you can put Russel into. Why in the helll would Russell feel any pressure?? We're cooked. We're dead men walking. It's all about guys like him, Higgins and Henderson now.

I really don't get the sentiment that playing him now is "meaningless." That's absolutely insane. Real-world reps against a team that's motivated to beat you are worth Russell's weight in gold. And that's a lot of motherfucking gold.

It's not like he's coming straight out of pop-warner or something. He's been playing for a big-time program, running the big plays and dominating. Why all of a sudden is he so stupid we can't open up half the playbook for him? Why can't he wear a wristband, go out there and run the show??

Babying a guy like Russell is ludicrous. And yes, worrying about what might happen to his fucking psyche if he goes out there and does what he's been doing all his life is babying the fucker.

SoCalRaider

11-10-2007, 04:38 PM

Fuck a development program. He was on one of the best teams in the nation in college. He played in the best conference in college. He played against the best defenses and won.

Bro... whateva that shit is you're smokin'.... pass it ova here. He got worked against the better defenses. Go look at his stats against ranked opponents. If only he were half as good you say.

RHC

11-10-2007, 05:01 PM

Bro... whateva that shit is you're smokin'.... pass it ova here. He got worked against the better defenses. Go look at his stats against ranked opponents. If only he were half as good you say.The only game I see where he got "worked" was against Florida (the national champions). That was the only game in 2006 where he threw more INTs than TDs. And even then he completed 59% and threw for 228.

He didn't score against Auburn but he threw for 270 and took care of the ball.

My point was that we either have a franchise QB or not. So let him play.

Rupert

11-10-2007, 05:52 PM

Fuck a development program.
Another feather in the "make RHC head coach" cap. Classic.:pound:

CrossBones

11-10-2007, 07:24 PM

I'll take Crusher's take over the rest.

Why are we afraid to play this kid against anybody? Are we afraid he'll do worst than the clown's we've been running out there? I seriously think that would be impossible. I really hope our first year head coach hasn't put together a play book that is so complicated that a former pro bowl QB couldn't grasp in three months...come on guys. Russell needs to play. At this point the sooner the better. Kiffin knows it but I think he's trying to save a little face for some reason. I'm going to be pretty pissed if we piss this whole season away without letting Russell see the filed and play in some meaningful situations. That effectively flushes 2008 down the toilet too the way I see it.

Abelardo

11-10-2007, 07:33 PM

It is like that technique from the strippers: they don't remove all the clothes at once, they try to extend the striptease till near the end. Russell is the last card in Raiders entertainment football. Once depleted the last resource of atention, The fans will lose interest, and they won't fill the stadium up. Russell will play, but in some weeks, hope not many.

BigTron

11-10-2007, 07:48 PM

I was all for it until i read the players comments. They made it seem like he wasnt ready. I actually think plugging him in the game in the 2nd quarter for a series or two would be a good way to get it started.

RaiderIVlife

11-10-2007, 10:07 PM

I think part of the thought process here for Kiffin is that Russell hasn't "paid his dues" as a teamate for missing camp, etc. Plus the old adage of play the veteran QB if you're still "mathematically in the playoff hunt", yada, yada, yada.

IMHO, the quickest way to gain the respect of his teamates will be to face the fire with everyone else, take his lumps, STRUGGLE, deal with the tough questions & post game interviews as the "Team Leader", etc.

BTW, Cutler & Rivers are struggling this year and they both played extensively last season. The sooner Russell get's acclimiated the better. All young QB's stuggle, what else is new?

The Raiders will have to upgrade OL & WR in the offseason, but I don't see how he won't benefit from the experience. Kiffin's offense get's the ball out faster than Shell's offense and Cable, despite the lack of talent, still has this unit playing better than last season IMO.

The time is now.

Raidermania12

11-11-2007, 04:55 AM

CrossBones

11-11-2007, 06:47 AM

Oh and a random thought here: Joe Thomas has not given up a sack this season. :o

RHC

11-11-2007, 08:49 AM

Another feather in the "make RHC head coach" cap. Classic.:pound:You're right Rup. In 25 years of being a hardcore pro football/Raiders fan I've neve learned a single thing that would qualify me to have an educated opinion on something like this.

None of my arguments have made a lick of sense. I bow to your risk management mentality.

And don't bother denying it. Nobody who's a risk manager wants to be seen as one. Because it means you have no balls.

RHC

11-11-2007, 09:38 AM

No one here can point to a scenario within the past 10 years where a qb started in his first year with as lil help as we have to offer Russell, and been successful. Manning had MArshall MVP Faulk, Ken Dilger when he was still of value, Young Marcus Pollard, Young Marvin Harrison, and alot in place. We dont have anything close to that. I'd take Marvin Harrison as a rookie over any of our WR's. And its no contest when comparing our whole RB core as a group to Marshall Faulk let alone one RB. The closest we come is at TE.

Ben Rothlisberger? One of the better O-lines in the NFL, a very potent running game, and a pretty good defense behind him.

My point is that you guys want trial by fire, but even that has to be rigged a lil' bit with some damn help. Otherwise you're slaughtering your franchise qb.Bullshit. Akili Smith was a poor man's Seneca Wallace. And that's bad.

Roethlisberger is an entirely different story. He didn't go #1 overall. He went to a team that actually DID have solid pieces in place. So let's compare apples to apples - #1 overall picks. Because they're supposed to go out there and become great quickly. And they all go to crappy teams.

Manning had a ton of talent in place?? That may be true, but why did he go 3-13 as a rook? You think he didn't take his lumps? You think it wasn't a struggle every day for him out there?

Testaverde played in 6 games as a rookie on a TB team that was a complete piece of shit. He's now #6 all-time in passing yards.

John Elway. 11 games as a rokie. Really took his lumps. Next season he threw for 2600 yds and 18 TDs, his team went 13-3 and went to the playoffs.

Troy Aikman. He played 11 games as a rook and still didn't explode until his 3rd season. But he went 7-9 in his 2nd year. I think we would all agree that would be a substantial upgrade over where we are now.

Jeff George. A monster talent who was a little bit of a headcase. A disappointment, but not a bust. In fact he had some great years in the league. Played 13 games as a rook and his team went 7-9. In fact, IND lost 3 straight until they put him on the field that year.

Bledsoe. 13 games as a rook. #7 all-time in passing yds, #13 all-time in passing TDs. SB appearance, 4 playoff years. Great QB.

Couch. Played 15 games as a rook, loser bust.

Vick. I never thought he was worth a shit. Nevertheless a dangerous pro bowl player who took his team deep into the playoffs. 8 games as a rook. Another head case.

Carr. Plyed all 16 games as a rook, loser bust IMO.

Palmer. Sat out his rookie season. Went 8-8 the following year. Suffered a massive injury early on. Great QB now, but has only gone to the playoffs once (lost in the first round to PIT) on a team loaded with talent.

Eli Manning. 9 games as a rook. 3700 yds and 24 TDs in his 2nd season. Twice to the playoffs in his first 3 years, and headed there again. He's a risk-taker who will get more consistent over time. I'd take him over Russell in a heartbeat.

Alex Smith. 9 games as a rook. Still question marks but he hasn't shown much.

THERE IS NO CORRELLATION BETWEEN PLAYING A #1 OVERALL QB IN HIS FIRST SEASON - ESPECIALLY ON THE BACK END OF IT - AND HAVING THAT QB RUINED.

NONE.

RaiderIVlife

11-11-2007, 10:11 AM

CrossBones

11-11-2007, 10:14 AM

Raidermania12 - I don't think those of us that are advocating that Russell play expect him to be "succesful". In fact, I expect the opposite. This is simply about jump starting the learning curve because I believe that he, and the team, will be better for it in 2008. Simple as that.

"Succesfull"

This team is not even playing well with the veterans. Russell might as well play.Well said bro.

Russell is all about 2008 and having him ready to go from the jump. Without some significant exposure this year in meaningful games (not useless preseason games) you can write off 2008 as a throw away AGAIN. Not what I want to see. I want to go into 2008 with a reasonable expectation to be a lot better on offense.

007

11-11-2007, 10:25 AM

RHC is bringing the heat. Good posts.

CrossBones

11-11-2007, 10:27 AM

RHC is bringing the heat. Good posts.Yes he is. And his posts make total sense to me. :D

RHC

11-11-2007, 01:00 PM

The bottom line is we didn't throw Russell to the wolves. He's been watching and supposedly learning the entire 1st half of the season.

He should be ready and able to make some plays.

I'm with BigTron. Give him a couple of series over the next 2 games then start him.

Make it so.

Raidermania12

11-11-2007, 01:56 PM

RHC i noticed every guy who failed that you listed is saw as "i never thought he make it anyways" or "he's a loser bust". But they very well coulda been successful with some patience. High prospects are high prospects. IMO if they dont prosper its the teams fault. Looks like slighted opinion about what I'm saying. I bring up a scenario and you say "well thats different". But generally theres a consistency of solid supporting help=better growth.

Raidermania12 - I don't think those of us that are advocating that Russell play expect him to be "succesful". In fact, I expect the opposite. This is simply about jump starting the learning curve because I believe that he, and the team, will be better for it in 2008. Simple as that..
Nothing wrong with believing that. But i never said he should be successful. I spoke about him getting killed. I'm talking about him breaking his leg or tearing ligament running for his life because we got dog piss blocking for him and we lose 2008 being greedy for a jump start. Is that risk worth it. No imo. Not when you are paying this guy more than most starting qb's the rest of his career possibly.

RHC

11-11-2007, 02:42 PM

RHC

11-11-2007, 02:47 PM

Nothing wrong with believing that. But i never said he should be successful. I spoke about him getting killed. I'm talking about him breaking his leg or tearing ligament running for his life because we got dog piss blocking for him and we lose 2008 being greedy for a jump start. Is that risk worth it. No imo. Not when you are paying this guy more than most starting qb's the rest of his career possibly.Risk manager.

No guts no glory. No pain no gain. No risk no reward.

This is the NFL. It's one of the 2 most dangerous team sports in the world. People get hurt.

We have a running game to take heat off of him. We have guys who can be quick outlets. We can run screens and quick outs.

WTF is the matter with you people?

Our guys get killed right now because NOBODY RESPECTS THE PASS. Yeah, our o-line isn't good at pass blocking. Such is life. Get someone in there who can actually PASS and things could get better.

It's all interconnected to an extent.

RaiderIVlife

11-11-2007, 04:19 PM

With each increasingly pathetic performance by the offense, the arguement against playing JaMarcus Russell get's weaker and weaker.

Play the man, give this team a charge. Give the home fans something to cheer for on the field.

We aren't expecting victories, we just want to see something of the future. I know Raider Nation will cheer these guys on if Russell is on the field.

It's plain as day to me.

Rupert

11-11-2007, 04:22 PM

I'm sick to death of McCown. Culpepper hasn't made me sick, but there's no advantage to running him out there anymore.

Kiffin has to decide how much he thinks Russell can currently run. Decide that tonight. (McCown just fumbled). Fucker. Back to what I was thinking. I'll put it into bullets.

Decide what Russell can run currently
Decide the minimum he needs to learn for next Sunday
Decide what you can teach him by next Sunday
Decide whether you'll be able to teach him enough
If you cannot, design a game plan that you can make work (in other words minimize the plays he'll be shaky on)

Then commit to Russell from Monday (film day) onward. Tell the whole team. Tell them there's no going backwards. No safety net. The defense is going to have to shut opponents down. The offense is going to have to help him succeed, and that's everyone.

There is no more "this season". McCown sucks. There's no upside to Culpepper. Russell time is now. We'll see how well Kiffin and his staff can coach right now. They've done a great job with the OL and stop-gap players. Now they've got to put the rubber to the road. No more kicking the tires baby. Like race day has arrived and your car isn't perfect, make adjustments in the pits till it's driving the way you want it to. The alternatives have no upside.

SoCalRaider

11-11-2007, 04:25 PM

No guts no glory. No pain no gain. No risk no reward.

All the cliches in the world can't disguise the fact that the Russell jihadists still don't have a coherent take to overcome the fact that the kid is too green to play.

We have a running game to take heat off of him.
Won't help if our playbook is trimmed down to 15 plays.

We have guys who can be quick outlets.
Bull shit.... Every team will line up with a bump and run and bring the house.

We can run screens and quick outs.
No we can't.

Our guys get killed right now because NOBODY RESPECTS THE PASS.
So let's kill Russell? :rolleyes:

Get someone in there who can actually PASS and things could get better.
It's too late to go back in time and sign J.Garcia.

Rupert

11-11-2007, 04:26 PM

As another example: They decided Jordan wasn't getting it done, they switched to Fargas. Yeah, yeah, QB is tougher. I know. Russell has been here long enough to hand off 60% of the time.

RHC

11-11-2007, 04:28 PM

Rupert

11-11-2007, 04:33 PM

RaiderIVlife

11-11-2007, 04:34 PM

Raider fans would actually cheer the team on if Russell was playing. That alone is worth it.

We'll run 60% of the time and Russell with have 2 reads to make or chuck it away.

Why the fuck not.

Byron2112

11-11-2007, 04:37 PM

Who are we playing next week, The patriots?

RaiderDestiny

11-11-2007, 04:38 PM

RaiderIVlife

11-11-2007, 04:38 PM

I think Minnesota?

Raidermania12

11-11-2007, 04:38 PM

We have a running game to take heat off of him.
No we dont. And further more we dont have the WR's to help him out. McCown's sorry ass bust his ass getting free from the defense only to find only one WR even trying to get open.

No guts no glory is cool. But not at the expense of our 60 million dollar qb. Throw Walter in if you gotta just have someone in. I'm sure Russell will get some time. But i'm not itching to see him play so soon.

RHC

11-11-2007, 04:39 PM

All the cliches in the world can't disguise the fact that the Russell jihadists still don't have a coherent take to overcome the fact that the kid is too green to play.Yes we do. He can only be better than what we have now. That's a crystal-clear, coherent take on the situation.
Won't help if our playbook is trimmed down to 15 plays.Of course it will. It always helps. Besides, right now there are exactly ZERO pass plays that McCown's capable of executing. If Russell can execute even 5 of those 15 we're in great shape.
Bull shit.... Every team will line up with a bump and run and bring the house.And Russell will have to man up and throw the ball to make them pay. He's a fucking #1 pick for the luva God. Let him do what he was hired to do.
No we can't.Can too. :rolleyes: Can too Can too Can too...
So let's kill Russell? :rolleyes:.Yes. I want him dead. I'm just concerned that he probably won't get killed out there. I mean, that's a big concern for me. :rolleyes: Fuckin' risk managers.
It's too late to go back in time and sign J.Garcia.Well shit, man. Let's cut Russell now and sign Jeff George. Or Koy Detmer. If Russell can't pass then we're up shit creek for a long time.

RaiderDestiny

11-11-2007, 04:40 PM

Won't help if our playbook is trimmed down to 15 plays.

Our playbook IS down to 15 plays. 13 of which are the same running play. The coach has no confidence in his QB's to throw, so we are one dimensional. The playbook cannot be trimmed any more than it already is.

Byron2112

11-11-2007, 04:41 PM

Here's the thing, we have no weapons, we have no protection.

Who's gonna help the kid learn the NFL passing game?

Tim Dwight?

Jerry Porter?

Fuuuuuck....

CrossBones

11-11-2007, 04:44 PM

Here is the remaining schedule...

Sunday, November 18 10:00 a.m. at Minnesota Vikings
Sunday, November 25 10:00 a.m. at Kansas City Chiefs
Sunday, December 2 1:05 p.m. Denver Broncos
Sunday, December 9 10:00 a.m. at Green Bay Packers
Sunday, December 16 1:05 p.m. Indianapolis Colts
Sunday, December 23 10:00 a.m. at Jacksonville Jaguars

Sunday, December 30 1:15 p.m. San Diego Chargers

Not shaping up well for the Raiders. Can we beat Minnesota on the road? KC? Denver?

SoCalRaider

11-11-2007, 04:44 PM

SoCal: Getting Russell killed isn't much of a worry for me. How bad were Pepper and McCown hurt? Not a big deal.

I don't have a problem telling Russell his 3rd/4th option is to throw the ball away. That's about as effective as McCown, maybe even better.

Part of it is an injury concern.... but part of it is on the development side. Obviously nobody has a birds eye view of what's going on in practice.... but the big red flag I see is I'm not sure Kiffin has done anything to develop any of our QBs. Look at a guy like Walter. He's been in Kiffin's system since day 1... yet we can't even get the guy on the field? Now we're saying put Russell out there with a fraction of the time that Walter has had.

This coach has too many agendas for me to grasp. I think the writing is on the wall that this is gonna be a 1 and done. At this point, I'd rather not have Russell see a damn down in this stupid system because this system won't be place next year.

RaiderDestiny

11-11-2007, 04:46 PM

No we dont. And further more we dont have the WR's to help him out. McCown's sorry ass bust his ass getting free from the defense only to find only one WR even trying to get open.

No guts no glory is cool. But not at the expense of our 60 million dollar qb. Throw Walter in if you gotta just have someone in. I'm sure Russell will get some time. But i'm not itching to see him play so soon.

Why try to get open? If the WR is more than 7 yards down the field, McCown can't get it to him anyway. If I were a WR on this team, I would be bored out of my mind. You track how many passes have been over 15 yards down the field this year. Now subtract the one Pepp threws. I bet you could count them on one hand.

I do agree with one thing you said. If you are not going to put Russell in, put in Walter. He can't be any worse that what we have been watching. He was better than this last year when the team was absolutely pathetic. Or was that this year? It happens so often lately I forget.

RaiderDestiny

11-11-2007, 04:48 PM

RaiderIVlife

11-11-2007, 04:49 PM

Firing another coaching staff would be stupid mistake.

Aside from an overall lack of talent, our biggest issue is lack of continuity.

Even if you don't like Lane Kiffin, there are competent assistants throughout the staff.

RHC

11-11-2007, 04:49 PM

No we dont. Fargas has a 5.4 ypc average and is headed for a 1000-yd season even though he has only started a few games now. WTF don't you understand about a running game? Don't fucking tell me I'm full of shit. You're blind.
And further more we dont have the WR's to help him out. McCown's sorry ass bust his ass getting free from the defense only to find only one WR even trying to get open.Ahhhh... So it's not McCown at all! It's the receivers!! Curry, Porter, Miller, Dwight, Jordan... None of those dudes can get open or catch a ball.

I get it now. :rolleyes:
No guts no glory is cool. But not at the expense of our 60 million dollar qb. Throw Walter in if you gotta just have someone in. I'm sure Russell will get some time. But i'm not itching to see him play so soon.We've done Walter. And he's done. There's no hope there. There's not a single reason to play him at this point.

And BTW, our $60M QB is getting paid $10M this season to sit in a film room and relax.

RaiderDestiny

11-11-2007, 04:50 PM

Here's the thing, we have no weapons, we have no protection.

Who's gonna help the kid learn the NFL passing game?

Tim Dwight?

Jerry Porter?

Fuuuuuck....

And this will change next year? I thought that was why we had coaches.

SoCalRaider

11-11-2007, 04:50 PM

Yes we do. He can only be better than what we have now. That's a crystal-clear, coherent take on the situation.
That's an irreverent take. Some of us are concerned about developing a QB.... and you're focus is on winning games. Apples and oranges.

Of course it will. It always helps. Besides, right now there are exactly ZERO pass plays that McCown's capable of executing. If Russell can execute even 5 of those 15 we're in great shape.

You're wasting you're time if you think you're gonna convince me that Russell can execute a damn thing when he's this green.

And Russell will have to man up and throw the ball to make them pay. He's a fucking #1 pick for the luva God. Let him do what he was hired to do.

Where he was drafted is irrelevant.

RaiderDestiny

11-11-2007, 04:51 PM

Rupert

11-11-2007, 04:54 PM

YESSSSSSSSSSSS!

Let it hang out there and don't be afraid to get it chopped off.

Tell Russell before he leaves the stadium tonight that he'll be working 12-hour days beginning tomorrow. He'll take 100% of the snaps in practice. He'll practice just as hard at handing off as he will at throwing. Center/QB exchange. 2 reads on every play - primary and outlet. Working with half the field.

Put every running play in the book into next wek's gameplan.

Whatever the hell it takes.
Yes. Definitely tell Russell tonight. "How ya doin' kid? Got a good shower in? Excellent. Study pages 86-214 in the playbook tonight. Don't worry about 4 and 5 in the progression. We're going over them in the morning. Come to class at 8am. Bring lunch and dinner."

We ran a smaller game plan for Culpepper. We ran the full book (really?) with McCown. We got squat. There's no reason to go for wins this season at this point. Let's start preparing for wins next season. Everything else is gravy.

It's time to manage the risk with Russell on the field.

SoCalRaider

11-11-2007, 04:57 PM

Al did not fire the ENTIRE coaching staff to fire Kiffin after one year. He will be here next year.

Last year has no bearing on this year. These are the things that matter:

- This team has regressed every week since the Miami game.

- None of our young guys on offense (Walter, Bush, Miller, Russell) are any more developed now than they were a year ago.

- We're still one of the worst teams in football.

The question I have for you is what has Kiffin done to this point in the season to justify bringing him back?

RHC

11-11-2007, 05:02 PM

That's an irreverent take. Some of us are concerned about developing a QB.... and you're focus is on winning games. Apples and oranges.I'm not focused on winning games at all at this point. In fact, my whole point is that it doesn't make any difference anymore anyway. And all I want to do is develop this QB. That's why he needs to be in games. That's the best possible way to develop the kid.

You disagree. So what.

And BTW, why don't you swaddle him and stick a pacifier in his mouth while you're at it.
You're wasting you're time if you think you're gonna convince me that Russell can execute a damn thing when he's this green.How fucking green could the kid possibly be anyway? Didn't he play 4 years in the toughest conference in college football?? Didn't he go to all our mini-camps? Hasn't he sat out the entire season learning the system and the playbook?? Hasn't he had vets and coaches to talk to and learn from? WTF is he, an imbecile? I don't see him drooling on himself, so I don't think he has brain damage.
Where he was drafted is irrelevant.Except for the fact that #1 picks are supposed to be very close to ready to play in the NFL. Except for the fact that #1 picks are supposed to have talent oozing out of their ears. Except for the fact that #1 picks have done everything right to impress the hell out of scouts, coaches, owners and analysts.

Other than that you're right. It's irrelevant. :rolleyes:

Being picked #1 means a lot.

Byron2112

11-11-2007, 05:03 PM

And this will change next year? I thought that was why we had coaches.

Coaches... for what?

Are they gonna suit up?

When I say who do we have to help him learn the NFL passing game, I'm talking about players that can help give him some on-field success to progress as a QB... to have a chance to build on something.

We have 4 WR's on the entire team, 2 projects that played different positions in college(Curry, Porter), a rookie(Higgins), and a guy that was mowing his grass on sundays before last week(Dwight).

We have a stable of backup RB's.

We have a decent rookie TE, that's not the kinda player that takes over a game or gets wide open, our other TE is a former WR that I don't know was even drafted.

Both offensive tackles were low round/undrafted guy's, our guards are a bust tackle and scrub free agent, and our center is playing on a knee held together by a prayer... I don't know that he even has a backup.

We have no legit starting quality at any of the key positions on offense. Not at RB, not at WR(whatever you want to argue about Curry/Porter, the argument is made that neither is a #1 or a particularly noticable #2). No TE that's proven anything in the this league. Street people at center and offensive tackle.

Again, I ask, who on this offense is going to help Russell learn and progress as an NFL QB?

RHC

11-11-2007, 05:11 PM

Yes. Definitely tell Russell tonight. "How ya doin' kid? Got a good shower in? Excellent. Study pages 86-214 in the playbook tonight. Don't worry about 4 and 5 in the progression. We're going over them in the morning. Come to class at 8am. Bring lunch and dinner."

We ran a smaller game plan for Culpepper. We ran the full book (really?) with McCown. We got squat. There's no reason to go for wins this season at this point. Let's start preparing for wins next season. Everything else is gravy.

It's time to manage the risk with Russell on the field.Tell Porter, Curry and Miller to keep their eyes peeled so they can come back to Russell if the play breaks down. Make sure Russell know he has a lot of room to improvise, roll out and run. Let him tap that talent and make plays. Run max protect more often.

With his gun he should be able to hit guys who have less separation. It'd be nice if he can lob a timing pass 30 yds downfield for Higgins. Probably asking too much.

CrossBones

11-11-2007, 05:24 PM

This coach has too many agendas for me to grasp.I've been in Kiffin's corner from day one BUT I see a little of what you say here and it's a little disturbing. I understand his ego was stroked by being named the youngest HC in the NFL's history but there does seem to be a lot of arrogance which won't work with high paid pro athletes. Hopefully he'll get through this tough time. I still think he's a good fit for this organization with all it's perceived problems in the FO etc. We'll see.

I doubt seriously if Al would send him packing after one yhear. This team has more problems than any of us thought. :o

RHC

11-11-2007, 05:25 PM

Again, I ask, who on this offense is going to help Russell learn and progress as an NFL QB?Who is going to do it next year?? Are you banking on bringing in high-value FAs and having them rock your world in their first season with the team?

Is Crayton or Berrian going to come in here and flip the switch in his head??

Is Faneca going to turn the ship around on the o-line and all of a sudden we've got world-class protection?

How about Ron Dayne. Maybe he'll come take a big load off, right?

If you're searching for a great situation for Russell then we'll be waiting a good 2 more years at least. In fact, I'd argue that it's his job to come in and improve the CURRENT situation. He is the chosen one. We chose him. So let's choose him already.

RaiderDestiny

11-11-2007, 05:27 PM

Coaches... for what?

Are they gonna suit up?

When I say who do we have to help him learn the NFL passing game, I'm talking about players that can help give him some on-field success to progress as a QB... to have a chance to build on something.

We have 4 WR's on the entire team, 2 projects that played different positions in college(Curry, Porter), a rookie(Higgins), and a guy that was mowing his grass on sundays before last week(Dwight).

We have a stable of backup RB's.

We have a decent rookie TE, that's not the kinda player that takes over a game or gets wide open, our other TE is a former WR that I don't know was even drafted.

Both offensive tackles were low round/undrafted guy's, our guards are a bust tackle and scrub free agent, and our center is playing on a knee held together by a prayer... I don't know that he even has a backup.

We have no legit starting quality at any of the key positions on offense. Not at RB, not at WR(whatever you want to argue about Curry/Porter, the argument is made that neither is a #1 or a particularly noticable #2). No TE that's proven anything in the this league. Street people at center and offensive tackle.

Again, I ask, who on this offense is going to help Russell learn and progress as an NFL QB?

If we wait for this to change, Russell may not start until his 5th year.

SoCalRaider

11-11-2007, 05:30 PM

How fucking green could the kid possibly be anyway? Didn't he play 4 years in the toughest conference in college football??

Laughable. For a second there, you fooled me into thinking you knew how much of a project this kid is....

Byron2112

11-11-2007, 05:39 PM

Maybe a top 5 pick,one a the first few picks in the second round, a couple/few well chosen free agents.

Yeah, I believe we can upgrade the talent some next season. The scrubs on the roster, and Russell, will know more about what this offense is about.

What if we'd have signed Steinbach and drafted Joe Thomas... think our offense would be better?

Why can't we do something like that next season, plus add alittle speed/talent to the skill postions?

What I don't want to do is throw Russell, who doesn't know shit from shine-ola, in with a buncha guys, that even if they knew something, couldn't do anything about it.

The guy is the fifth highest paid QB in the league, right ahead of Brady. If we break him, or give him the Vinny Testaverde treatment, we'll all be having this same discussion here on Bone's board in 2012.

Why in suich a hurry to throw the guy to the dogs? This team isn't doing shit this season anyhow.

I just wanna make sure he's ready to run the offense... and if he's not, I sure don't want to throw him in against the NFL with the JV squad covering his back.

I say play it smart and be patient.

RaiderDestiny

11-11-2007, 05:41 PM

Who is going to do it next year?? Are you banking on bringing in high-value FAs and having them rock your world in their first season with the team?

Is Crayton or Berrian going to come in here and flip the switch in his head??

Is Faneca going to turn the ship around on the o-line and all of a sudden we've got world-class protection?

How about Ron Dayne. Maybe he'll come take a big load off, right?

If you're searching for a great situation for Russell then we'll be waiting a good 2 more years at least. In fact, I'd argue that it's his job to come in and improve the CURRENT situation. He is the chosen one. We chose him. So let's choose him already.

Here, here. Nothing teaches you to win in the NFL like experience. Everyone keeps saying that if you play a QB too early, then it could ruin his confidence and he could never develop, a la Carr and Harrington. I've got news for you - you either have it or you don't. Those people didn't fail for any other reason than they do not have what it takes to win in the NFL. History is full of these guys. It wouldn't have mattered if Jeff George did not play until year 2 just as it wouldn't have mattered if Brady played year one. Does anyone really think Ryan Leaf would have been a great QB if he didn't play his rookie season? A player is a player. Some have instincts, some don't. Do you think Jordan is going to "develop" into a more instinctual runner? Name 5 QB's that "developed" because of time. They develop because of game experience. Have you ever noticed that the only people talking this crap is announcers that never played? Someone made the analogy a week or so back, but Aikman had a pretty rough rookie season. It obviously ruined his career. Like I said, you have it or you don't. Let's find out if we have it.

I also agree that it is the QB's responsiblity to make those around him better. Prior to this year, the WR's at New England would have been 3rd WR's on any team, but it was enough because Brady used them well. Rice and Brown were WELL past their prime, but Gannon played to their strengths. Somehow I think that our WR's "separation" problems would disappear with a QB that could get them the ball.

There is a reason that teams draft #1 fellas and it ain't because they are good. At any other position our first round pick would be on the field or he would be a bust. I say play the kid. He has had 10 weeks and a bye week. Give him a shot. If he doesn't want to play at this point, he is not a competitor and we have another problem entirely.

Rupert

11-11-2007, 05:42 PM

Part of it is an injury concern.... but part of it is on the development side. Obviously nobody has a birds eye view of what's going on in practice.... but the big red flag I see is I'm not sure Kiffin has done anything to develop any of our QBs. Look at a guy like Walter. He's been in Kiffin's system since day 1... yet we can't even get the guy on the field? Now we're saying put Russell out there with a fraction of the time that Walter has had.

This coach has too many agendas for me to grasp. I think the writing is on the wall that this is gonna be a 1 and done. At this point, I'd rather not have Russell see a damn down in this stupid system because this system won't be place next year.
Yeah, I get the development angle. Kiffin has said he doesn't like Walter's attitude. He said Walter hangs his head after a mistake. Is that fallout from last season? Who knows?

Can the same thing happen to Russell? I don't think so. I don't think it would happen to Walter in this system either.

Here's the thing. I accepted McCown this week because last week could have been rust (but I didn't think so). So I was willing to see one more week to give him the opportunity to make the throws he missed last week. He was better this week, but that's like saying he was a 3 last week and he was a 3.5 this week (out of 10). Enough of that crap.

As for the coaching staff. I don't know how you can say they haven't developed a QB. It's a 3-year job. So why put Russell out there before he's developed? Part of the development process takes place on the field. I don't see this scheme as having the potential to screw with a guy's mind like last season's. I'd rather wait until Russell could use more of the playbook, but that risk can be managed on the field by having him throw the ball away, waaay away.

I don't see the "talent" around him as that bad.

The OL. Okay, their pass protection isn't that great, but look at other teams. I watched New England, Green Bay, Indy, and other top-level teams have protection breakdowns. Not as often, yeah true. But the point is it happens. So at some point Russell has to learn to slide, step up, and make throwing lanes. He might just learn that faster here, or at least be forced to.

The WR's. Porter and Curry and company get open as often as most WR's. They're not elite by any stretch of the imagination, but they get it done often enough. McCown and Culpepper have missed more than their fare share of open receivers. It's time to try the next guy. And if it isn't Walter (as Kiffin suggests), then it's Russell.

RB's? Man I'd rather have Fargas than Benson. And our FB's are nasty blockers. We might get to see what Bush has to offer, since Jordan seems to have fallen to 3rd HB. Fargas also does well in the blocking game, so I'm not worried about blitz pickup.

If you want an example of why this coaching staff is better than last season, and will last beyond this season, look at the protection they've gotten with their blocking schemes. The results haven't been there, just like last season because of execution, but the opportunities are much more frequent this season. It's not the blocking that can't support the 7-step drop anymore and WR's not running their routes. Now it's the QB that can't make the throws. The QB who can't hold onto the ball from under center. The biggest problem I see this season is the QB. Not the scheme, not the guys running routes (though there is some of that), not guys dropping perfect passes (there aren't as many this season). The weakest link on the offense is clearly the QB. I've argued that OL is a major need in the off-season because we've got the QB of tomorrow on the team.

I think the time has come for the coaches to bite the bullet and start the on-field development of their young QB.

Rupert

11-11-2007, 06:11 PM

Hey, I don't buy the argument that a guy drafted #1 overall HAS to play now or should be protected until everything is in place. Every situation has to be evaluated in it's own right. I've seen enough from everyone else on offense to suggest that the QB is the weakest link.

Would I be concerned if Fargas goes down? Maybe, we are a little thin at HB when it comes to quality. But that would bring Bush up and Rhodes looked decent in the couple carries he's gotten so far (it's one damned small sample though).

WR also has a quality depth problem. But if guys start going down it won't change how you run the offense. Open, open, or throw away. So we'd have guys open less often. That wouldn't hurt the QB learning the reads. It might hurt his confidence in the WR's, but hell, they'd be backups anyway.

I don't buy the "he played in the SEC" argument either. That doesn't prevent it from being a college environment. The defenses are better? Yeah, but so are the offenses. The net result is essentially zero. And think of it this way, a small school guy plays big schools before conference play since he's on the tune-up college squad. The big school guy plays small school guys before conference play since they're tuning up. net result? Who knows? Every schedule is different.

Again, I go back to evaluating the situation at hand. I don't care if we drafted Mr. Irrelevant. If it made sense to start his development now, I'd lobby for doing it. The likelihood that Russell can help us is greater since he's a #1 than if he were Mr. Irrelevant. But if he weren't on the squad, I'd be lobbying hard for Walter. Since Walter doesn't seem to be an option, bring on Russell.

CrossBones

11-11-2007, 06:14 PM

Rupert

11-11-2007, 06:29 PM

Who is going to do it next year?? Are you banking on bringing in high-value FAs and having them rock your world in their first season with the team?

Is Crayton or Berrian going to come in here and flip the switch in his head??

Is Faneca going to turn the ship around on the o-line and all of a sudden we've got world-class protection?

How about Ron Dayne. Maybe he'll come take a big load off, right?

If you're searching for a great situation for Russell then we'll be waiting a good 2 more years at least. In fact, I'd argue that it's his job to come in and improve the CURRENT situation. He is the chosen one. We chose him. So let's choose him already.
We can and should improve next season. But so what? Properly managed Russell can learn this season (I know you agree). He can still learn his progressions if guys aren't getting open. He can still learn what throws he can and cannot make. He can still learn how to time the bomb. He can still learn to time a screen over a lineman. Slide. Step up. Make his own passing lane. He can learn it all. With the threat of getting injured? Sure. But that can be managed.

I don't know that it's Russell's job to make things better, yet. But here's why I've changed from wait to go. Is he going to throw MORE picks than McCown? I guess that's possible. But even then he'd be learning. Would he fumble as often as Culpepper? That's possible too, I guess.

I just can't buy that we've got a better chance of winning with McCown or Culpepper under center. Not anymore. McCown had to clean up his passing. His decisions were pretty good. His passes were not. Two weeks in a row. Added to his early season "work". There's no upside to running Culpepper out there. Make it the kid's job now. You can't give it to Walter since you've dropped him down to 4th on the chart. The depth chart should read Russell, Walter, McCown/Culpepper (who cares after the 1st 2). If you need to take Russell out for a little chat, get your other young QB out there. Enough of the crappy vets.

Rupert

11-11-2007, 06:33 PM

Good post Rupert. (REP!!!!)

In a perfect world or a classroom Kiffin is probably right. But this is the real world and things aren't perfect. He tried to make it work with McCown for whatever his reasons but clearly it's not working. The kid doesn't have "it". hopefully Russell can get in there and show his teammates that he does have "it"; that he can lead and that they can win with him at quarterback. Vince Young has done this pretty well in Tennessee. You watch that team and you see that they believe in Young and VY doesn't have the tools Russell has (sans his legs)...so there is hope even for a rookie. Let's see what we got.
Absolutely! And VY even took a step backwards this season. You could argue that Roethlisberger's injuries caused his drop-off last season, whatever. He also took a step backwards. But it's clear that those offenses believe in their QB. There's a reason our WR's gave up when McCown broke contain late in the game. They don't believe in him.

Raidermania12

11-11-2007, 06:34 PM

And BTW, our $60M QB is getting paid $10M this season to sit in a film room and relax.
And whats your answer if cornell green matadors jared allen to him for and injury that'll have us paying him well into halfway next year getting free money?

We've done Walter. And he's done. There's no hope there. There's not a single reason to play him at this point.
We never did anything but bench him with no shot. He's more talented than McCown. Thats all that matters to me. I didnt say bring in the savior. I said bring in a QB who can make the simple throws atleast. Walter can do that much.

Fargas has a 5.4 ypc average and is headed for a 1000-yd season even though he has only started a few games now. WTF don't you understand about a running game? Don't fucking tell me I'm full of shit. You're blind.
Actually he's projected to to reach 800 if he stays consistent. Which brings me to the fact that consistency hasnt been his motto. I saw more in fargas than you ever did in your fickle ways and called for him to start before anybody here. So no need to call me blind to anything. What you may be overlooking is that he's only started 2 games..spin that anyway you want but with his injury history, he has to put in a lil' more work before you "crown his ass" as Dennis Green would say. And I say this as someone who roots for him to do well.

Ahhhh... So it's not McCown at all! It's the receivers!! Curry, Porter, Miller, Dwight, Jordan... None of those dudes can get open or catch a ball.
Why are you making shit up? I never said it was all anybody. I gave an example of a play (theres been a few of them) where when McCown wasnt killing us, and had time to find somebody. There was next to nobody open against defenses looking to stop our run game. McCown sucking doesnt excuse the WR's just as their lack of speed doesnt excuse him. give up trying to draw more out of what i say than whats there. The wr's arent much help whether because they are fickle or just maybe dont care anymore. Are they scrubs? No. Are they guys i'd want my qb to depend on to get open w/o a big name receiver to draw away the coverage? not really. jmho. but if you think they are legit targets for a rookie qb facing mass blitzes with a shitty o-line to boot. Agree to disagree.

Raidermania12

11-11-2007, 06:38 PM

There's a reason our WR's gave up when McCown broke contain late in the game. They don't believe in him.

Which is the last thing you want from a wr core that contains a team captain in it. Because it also means he's lost his peers. Players who make fan like decisions like not hustling because the qb is mediocre, dont earn their check. Dwight ran like he still gave a shit. If the others did that, we possibly keep that drive going on that play.

Rupert

11-11-2007, 06:40 PM

Who are we playing next week, The patriots?
Nah Minnesota. And even if we were, would Russell throw MORE picks than McCown? Fumble more often than Pepper? If his progression is two reads then throw away we manage the risk on the field and start the development for next season. Everything else is just holding him back.

CrossBones

11-11-2007, 06:40 PM

Oh wait on his way to the HOF Adrian Peterson had a mild setback today:

One week after his record-setting 296-yard performance against San Diego, the Packers held Peterson to 45 yards on 11 carries before knocking him out of the game with a knee injury in the third quarter.

Peterson has a sprained right knee and has an MRI exam scheduled for Monday.Injuries to a running back getting the ball as much as AP can be problematic especially on a team a lousy as Minny. Hopefully this knee isn't a big problem.

Film @ eleven.

Rupert

11-11-2007, 06:43 PM

Which is the last thing you want from a wr core that contains a team captain in it. Because it also means he's lost his peers. Players who make fan like decisions like not hustling because the qb is mediocre, dont earn their check. Dwight ran like he still gave a shit. If the others did that, we possibly keep that drive going on that play.
Yeah, but Dwight ran to where McCown couldn't make a play. Curry came back to McCown, but ran into underneath coverage. He pulled up when McCown threw deep.

SoCalRaider

11-11-2007, 06:53 PM

Yeah, I get the development angle. Kiffin has said he doesn't like Walter's attitude. He said Walter hangs his head after a mistake. Is that fallout from last season? Who knows?

Wow... I've never heard that spin before.... but at the same time, Kiffin's lip service isn't worth a penny to me. He's never struck me as somebody who actually thinks before he opens is hole... That said, if Kiffin can't undo the bad habits from last year.... you can argue that either Walter really is damaged goods, or Kiffin never made so much as an attempt to do anything about it. After watching the dog-n-pony show from the preseason... and hearing Walter's reaction to getting humiliated before the last preseason game... and now seeing Walter still on the roster at Al's insistence.... my intuition tells me our arrogant, pea-brained coach never gave the young QB a fair shake.

As for the coaching staff. I don't know how you can say they haven't developed a QB. It's a 3-year job. So why put Russell out there before he's developed? Part of the development process takes place on the field. I don't see this scheme as having the potential to screw with a guy's mind like last season's. I'd rather wait until Russell could use more of the playbook, but that risk can be managed on the field by having him throw the ball away, waaay away.

I'm talking about beginning that process of developing a player. Both Russell and Walter fall into that category. To me there is something very wrong if all the 1st team snaps in practice are still being split by our 1 year rentals. If I'm a coach committed to rebuilding this thang and developing players for the future... those 1st team snaps go to Russell and Walter.

If you want an example of why this coaching staff is better than last season,
I never asked for a comparison of this year's staff to last year's staff. I'm simply asking that if you take all the theoretical bull shit out of the equation can you point to a single damn thing that Kiffin has successfully put his signature on this year?

- Offensive improvement? No
- Developing young players? No
- Taking veteran players to the next level? Fargas (maybe)

.... the only thing I can remotely think of is the success in the run game.... but the question I have is how much of that is really attributable to Cable. If you want to say Kiffin should get credit because he handpicked Cable... fair enough... but my retort is I can't give Kiffin that credit until we establish an identity of running the football.... I'm more inclined to think our success running the ball comes in spite of Kiffin and his love affair with McGown.

RaiderIVlife

11-11-2007, 07:08 PM

Are there any press conference links up?

RHC

11-11-2007, 07:09 PM

Hey, I don't buy the argument that a guy drafted #1 overall HAS to play nowI don't either. Take Philip Rivers, for instance. Brees was winning. SD was a force. THAT's when a team can afford to let their #1 QB marinate on the bench.

We have no hope. There is no future with McCown, Pep or Walter. Hell, there's no PRESENT with those guys.

So I argue that not only is Russell the future, but he's the only one who can even attempt to deliver a PRESENT as well.

And what's being suggested here is that we take a torch to the rest of 2007 and watch it burn. There's no reason to play the games. Let's forfeit the rest of the season and keep all our guys healthy for next year. Why run guys like Sapp and Newberry out there at all?

That's bullshit. There's a purpose for every game played in this league if you choose to create it.

You know, for all the negativity around here about playing Russell, did you ever think it might be a very positive experience for him? Ever think he might go out there and win 2 or 3 games and be flying high heading into 2008? This kid could give everyone around him a reason to keep playing.

Rupert

11-11-2007, 07:13 PM

SoCal: Yep. I said, development of the QB is a 3-year job. We're not going to see the results for a couple seasons. I agree. We've got to stop giving the vets reps. Look at my depth suggestion: Russell, Walter, etc.

I think Miller looks good. O'Neal is a beast. Richardson is doing well for a day 2 rook. Clemons has found a spot as a pass rusher. Yeah, how much have they been "developed"? Regardless, they've been put out there. It will take a couple seasons to see if they develop. I can't throw Kiffin under the bus on that yet.

He got Fargas going. At least had the balls to put him in there. Found a place Gallery couldn't hurt that much. Other than that, do you think we had vets that could develop? So much of our roster is "what you see is what you get".

I see Kiffin has a Dale Carnegie (hope I'm not assigning the idea to the wrong guy) approach of make quick decisions and be slow to change them. Right or wrong he gives his evaluation a chance to work or fail and then moves on. I think he's going about this thing the right way.

CrossBones

11-11-2007, 07:14 PM

Are there any press conference links up?I have been looking for one but can't find one. Ought to be a beauty. :p

Rupert

11-11-2007, 07:21 PM

There's a purpose for every game played in this league if you choose to create it.

You know, for all the negativity around here about playing Russell, did you ever think it might be a very positive experience for him? Ever think he might go out there and win 2 or 3 games and be flying high heading into 2008? This kid could give everyone around him a reason to keep playing.
I've said it a couple times. There's a LOT to be gained from him having film of himself out on the field. A lot that he can break down in the off season. I was in favor of waiting until it made the most sense. It currently makes the most sense.

I didn't think McCown would be able to clean up his throws, but I was willing to give him the opportunity, especially since we were still essentially in the division. McCown was true to what I thought he'd do.

Either way, Kiffin HAD to start McCown this week. He HAS to demonstrate to his players that he will give them an opportunity to succeed. But he also has to show them that there are consequences for failing. Riding the pine is a natural consequence. Eventual release is another.

RHC

11-11-2007, 07:31 PM

And whats your answer if cornell green matadors jared allen to him for and injury that'll have us paying him well into halfway next year getting free money?.The same answer it would be if Manning got injured. Or Brady. Or Romo. Or Vince Young. Or Drew Brees. It sucks bad. It happens. There's big money tied up all over this league. Believe it or not, guys play anyway.
I didnt say bring in the savior. I said bring in a QB who can make the simple throws atleast.For what purpose? What in the hell do we gain?
Actually he's projected to to reach 800 if he stays consistent. Which brings me to the fact that consistency hasnt been his motto. I saw more in fargas than you ever did in your fickle ways and called for him to start before anybody here. So no need to call me blind to anything. What you may be overlooking is that he's only started 2 games..spin that anyway you want but with his injury history, he has to put in a lil' more work before you "crown his ass" as Dennis Green would say. And I say this as someone who roots for him to do well.That's the stupidest post I've seen in a long time. Congratulations on not being "fickle." And go get a "Math for dummies" book or something. He has 518 yds right now after 9 games. If he keeps up that pace - which of course is a stupid way of looking at it given that he's starting now - he'll hit 921 yds. But of course that's not a good way to extrapolate it since he's our starter now. So he'll go over 1000 yds. It's a simple equation.

And saying he'll hit the 1000-yd mark is equivalent to "crowning him???" Now I know what your problem is. You're so used to seeing garbage on the field you don't remember what good football is. Saying Fargas will hit 1000 yds isn't exactly "crowning" him. He's a solid runner. He's running hard. He has an excellent ypc average. He'll hit 1000 yds. He's part of our good running game. He can help take pressure off Russell. He's part of the solution, not the problem.
Why are you making shit up? I never said it was all anybody. I gave an example of a play (theres been a few of them) where when McCown wasnt killing us, and had time to find somebody. There was next to nobody open against defenses looking to stop our run game. McCown sucking doesnt excuse the WR's just as their lack of speed doesnt excuse him. give up trying to draw more out of what i say than whats there.After what you said about me "crowning" Fargas I'll just chuckle and ignore this dumb-ass rant.
The wr's arent much help whether because they are fickle or just maybe dont care anymore. Are they scrubs? No. Are they guys i'd want my qb to depend on to get open w/o a big name receiver to draw away the coverage? not really. jmho. but if you think they are legit targets for a rookie qb facing mass blitzes with a shitty o-line to boot. Agree to disagree.Life is hard all around. You do what you can with it. And if you have the talent Russell is supposed to have, you should be able to do something positive with it.

RaiderDestiny

11-11-2007, 07:35 PM

I don't either. Take Philip Rivers, for instance. Brees was winning. SD was a force. THAT's when a team can afford to let their #1 QB marinate on the bench.

We have no hope. There is no future with McCown, Pep or Walter. Hell, there's no PRESENT with those guys.

So I argue that not only is Russell the future, but he's the only one who can even attempt to deliver a PRESENT as well.

And what's being suggested here is that we take a torch to the rest of 2007 and watch it burn. There's no reason to play the games. Let's forfeit the rest of the season and keep all our guys healthy for next year. Why run guys like Sapp and Newberry out there at all?

That's bullshit. There's a purpose for every game played in this league if you choose to create it.

You know, for all the negativity around here about playing Russell, did you ever think it might be a very positive experience for him? Ever think he might go out there and win 2 or 3 games and be flying high heading into 2008? This kid could give everyone around him a reason to keep playing.

Agreed. All that I have to say is Vince Young. Total junk around him, but his team had something positive to build on for 2007 because he played in 2006. And don't anyone tell me that he had any more talent around him than we do. Unless we are just conceding that he has more talent than Russell.

Byron2112

11-11-2007, 07:40 PM

Just for the record, I'm not strictly against Russell playing this season. I just want it to be when coach thinks he's ready, not because us fans think the season is down the toilet and there's nothing more to lose.

I don't know when that might be, I can only speculate that Russell not being an exceptionally NFL ready QB comming out, and missing the entire offseason, has moved that moment further into the future than it would otherwise be.

Since I have no idea what's in Kiff's and Russ's heads in reguards to his chances of success at this particular moment I can only form an opinion based on what I see of the capabilities from the rest of the offense. It doesn't give me much reason for hope. We can run the ball an itty-bit, and not much more.

So, from the outside looking in, it doesn't appear to be a real promising situation at the moment IMO.

Rupert

11-11-2007, 07:52 PM

Just for the record, I'm not strictly against Russell playing this season. I just want it to be when coach thinks he's ready, not because us fans think the season is down the toilet and there's nothing more to lose.
Agreed, almost. I want it to be when the coach thinks it's the best option. I don't think any rookie QB will ever be "ready". I just don't think it's possible. It's why I favored waiting until next season early in the season. The way I see it now is that there is more to be gained from playing him than there is to be lost. It's not throwing away the season since it's already in the can.

Raidermania12

11-12-2007, 06:35 AM

RhC you keep reading shit that isnt there. that whole 1,000 yard rant totally missed the point. Its obvious you're gonna spin everything to appease your righteous belief. I'm just glad you dont run this team(and before you respond about me not being able to run this team either, you're right i wouldnt want to run it nor could I).

Raidermania12

11-12-2007, 06:36 AM

Since I have no idea what's in Kiff's and Russ's heads in reguards to his chances of success at this particular moment I can only form an opinion based on what I see of the capabilities from the rest of the offense. It doesn't give me much reason for hope. We can run the ball an itty-bit, and not much more.

This is about where I stand.

RHC

11-13-2007, 05:31 PM

007

11-14-2007, 01:14 AM

I think the announcers on Sunday said it best: 'All young QB's struggle'

If you look at it over the last few seasons, its so true:Smith, Young, Leinart, Losman, Jackson, Chris Simms, Grossman, Frye, Boller, Eli, Cutler, Campbell, Ramsey...The list goes on and on.

The only young QB's who seem to be playing stellar are Roethlisberger (Who's defense is giving up barely 200 yards and 12 points a game) and Romo (Who has the best OL, Owens, Witten, Barber, Jones, Crayton etc. at his disposal) I mean, even David Garrard would be classified as an older QB. About to turn thirty, 6 year vet, with 6 TD passes all season...The jury is still out.

Taking a quick glance at the top 10 in passer rating gives us names like Manning, McNabb, Favre, Brady, Kitna, Palmer, Garcia. Even in years before that, it's always the veterans topping the list, and in most cases leading teams into the playoffs.

It might take a couple years for our 22 year old QB to start showing his worth, so Im not in a huge panic, although I want to see him toss the rock around. I'll worry if it's season three, and he isnt producing (Alex Smith, are you there?)

Raidermania12

11-14-2007, 05:48 AM

You're right, you couldn't.

I'm also right to be glad that you never will in your wildest armchair fantasies. ;)

Jack's sore libido

11-14-2007, 09:25 AM

The only young QB's who seem to be playing stellar are Roethlisberger (Who's defense is giving up barely 200 yards and 12 points a game) and Romo

Romo also had several years flying completely under the radar as a backup, with absolutely no pressure to get in the game on him or on the organization, to develop his skills.

Rupert

11-14-2007, 11:33 AM

I would certainly hope no-one is expecting stellar play from Russell if he's put in this season. I am certainly not. But I think you forget another player who came in his 2nd season and started playing pretty damned well. Tom Brady. He had 3 attempts his rookie season, but after taking over in his 2nd season he never looked back, except to see how long the train of people riding his jock was. From his 3rd season on you could essentially call his play upper-echelon.

People expect a #1 draft pick to be able to step in and perform like Brady or Roethlisberger. The truth of the matter is that's an unlikely event. The circumstances of his contract negotiations have played against his development this season, which means we'll probably have to wait until his 3rd season before he explodes like Brady or Roethlisberger. And hell, by then we'll probably have more talent around him and the semblance of an official scheme in place.

I don't know that it makes sense to wait for the talent to start his on-field development when our options give us the same restrictions in play selection that he would, give us the same type of mistakes he'd make, and aren't exposed to a great risk of injury.

Jack's sore libido

11-14-2007, 11:43 AM

Daunte also didn't play a down as a rookie, but started his second year and was fantastic.

RHC

11-15-2007, 05:52 AM

Look, I'm going to say this one more time because I'm getting real tired of these arguments.

The fucking Vikings went 10-6 in Daunte's rookie year. Cunningham and George were tearing it up. They didn't get knocked out of the playoffs until round 2.

So I ask again, how in the fuck is that similar to our situation here in Oakland in 2007? Why in the HELL would they start their rookie QB under those circumstances??

We have no reason to continue starting our vet QBs. Unless our greatest desire is to coddle the guy we deemed spectacular enough to be worth the first #1 overall pick in our team's history.

Let's strap the diaper on him and feed him strained peas while we're at it. But don't forget to burp him. He might get indigestion and be ruined for his entire career because of the mental and physical agony.

:rolleyes:

Jack's sore libido

11-15-2007, 12:42 PM

Look, I'm going to say this one more time because I'm getting real tired of these arguments.

The fucking Vikings went 10-6 in Daunte's rookie year. Cunningham and George were tearing it up. They didn't get knocked out of the playoffs until round 2.

So I ask again, how in the fuck is that similar to our situation here in Oakland in 2007? Why in the HELL would they start their rookie QB under those circumstances??

You need to calm the fuck down if you're getting this worked up over these discussions.

No one is saying the '07 Raiders and '99 are in similar situations. No one.

In fact, I have on more than one occasion in these forums the past few weeks touted the idea of playing Russell.

The Daunte comparison is relevant with regards to the individual player's learning curve and development.

There are compelling arguments for both sides.

RHC

11-15-2007, 02:26 PM

You need to calm the fuck down if you're getting this worked up over these discussions.

No one is saying the '07 Raiders and '99 are in similar situations. No one.

In fact, I have on more than one occasion in these forums the past few weeks touted the idea of playing Russell.

The Daunte comparison is relevant with regards to the individual player's learning curve and development.

There are compelling arguments for both sides.The comparison still isn't relevant because when he finally started playing in 2000, he had a great offense surrounding him. Robert Smith, Rand Moss, Cris Carter... SIX players from that offense went to the pro bowl that year (including Pep). That's over half their starting unit for the love of God. And BTW, he choked his ass off against NYG in the playoffs that year, losing 0-41, throwing for 78 yds, 0 TDs and 3 picks.

The year before the Vikings picked Pep they were 15-1!! 7 pro bowlers on that offense. Talk about stepping into a great situation.

The "learning curve" for someone who steps into a team that's a SB contender vs. someone who's taking over one of the worst teams in the league may be just a hair different.

The comparison is completely off the mark. Pretty much the only thing they had in common was that they were QBs. And I guess they were both big and black. Beyond that, nothing.

You can pick a few instances where some guy sat out a year and then did well. It's completely meaningless because you have no idea what they would have done if they'd played as rookies. It's even more ridiculous if the team they were on was so good that they had every advantage known to man to help them post their numbers.

There are no "compelling arguments" for not playing Russell now. Unless you're concerned that Newberry will step on the hem of his dress while he's trying to drop back. Russell might fall on his butt and get an ouchie.

Rupert

11-15-2007, 03:05 PM

Jack's sore libido

11-15-2007, 04:36 PM

There are no "compelling arguments" for not playing Russell now.

What's that saying about thinking you know it all .... ?

BigTron

11-15-2007, 04:46 PM

I cant wait until JaMarcus plays and starts kicking ass. We will never have to worry about shit like this again.... for 12 years!

SoCalRaider

11-15-2007, 05:00 PM

There are no "compelling arguments" for not playing Russell now.

If that's the case, then why do you keep talking about it? You're right... and everybody else including all the players that have practiced alongside Russell are wrong.

Will somebody rep this guy and get it over with. :rolleyes:

Stanny

11-15-2007, 05:07 PM

I think the whole argument revolves around the "mental" aspect of the game as several others have posted, spoke or quoted such as Kiff. Some guys don't know the meaning "QUIT" while others succumb at the drop of a hat or over a period of time. Brett Favre, Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Joe Namath, John Elway, Johnny U, just got the piss beat out of them through out the course of their careers as well as their first few years in the league. They had some growing pains but they always picked themselves up, never quit during a game and would play with one good leg, a bad arm, back and concussion. Then you have other QB's who were supposed to be all world and got the piss beat out of them such as Dave Klingler, Akili Smith, Heath Shuler, Tim Couch, Todd Blackledge and Dan McGuire and didn't have the mental aspect for the game and just got worse as they got the piss beat out of them.

Then you have the other QB guys such as Jeff George, Jim Drunkenmiller, Andre Ware, and Ryan Leaf who thought their shit didn't stink with their big arms, crappy attitudes and then figured out they couldn't read a defense worth a shit and just fell in the tubes. George had a decent career but is considered a bum and underachiever again, because the mental aspect, and maturity issue.

So by not throwing JRock into the fire, the team and management I believe thinks it could eliminate some of the "mental" issues or pressures to throw at the kid who hasn't been here since day one, who is counted on being the savior. I think HB brought it up, its easier to ease a QB into the big picture and eliminate the bad habits, ala back foot, holding the ball low, throwing across the field, side arm, forcing the ball etc...Not all the time does that work, but you have a better chance of taking baby steps rather then entering into the full sprint as developing bad habits are very hard to break since they are part of your "comfy zone."

Will all my blabbing, I think the best approach would be to use him in key situations, let him get a few plays to get him aclimated...see how he adjusts to different line-ups, allow him to audible a few plays and make adjustments. Let him see the field, talk to the coach, let him know what he sees etc. You do this for two games or so and keep increasing his playing time based off of his performance. Once you see the kid get rattled and fall apart, give him a chance to pick himself up, if he continues to crumble, take him out and start over the following week.

Just me two pesos....

RaiderIVlife

11-15-2007, 05:42 PM

Stanny, I would absolutely be in favor of that scenario.

Although I'm one of the founding members of the "Throw in JaMarcus Russell" clique, if the coaches feel that this is the best approach, "I'm In".

He does need to see the field in some capacity. Seeing live action, etc. will serve him well for all the reasons you already mentioned and if he totally falls apart, you can go back to Culpepper.

RHC

11-16-2007, 10:39 AM

RHC: You know whats funny? Before the last paragrah I thought you'd changed your mind and were advocating for Russell to sit out until he had better talent around him. Every argument you made up until then was straight from the sit Russell until we're better camp.No, it was a "don't compare Culpepper to Russell because the situations are completely different" argument.

The argument for sitting Russell was "Look at Culpepper. He sat out an entire year and kicked butt when they finally put him in. Therefore Russell will kick butt next year if we sit him as well."

And what I'm saying is that the situations preclude any kind of comparison.

So basically what I'm saying is that we NEED to get Russell reps this year because next year he won't be playing for a playoff team like Culpepper did. Pep had a lot of things going for him that made him successful in his 2nd year. That's why he kicked butt, NOT because he sat on his ass his entire rookie season.

RHC

11-16-2007, 10:41 AM

What's that saying about thinking you know it all .... ?As soon as you show me a direct correllation between sitting out an entire rookie season and having an above average career, then we'll talk.

I went back and did the research. You're just sitting around throwing out irrelevant comparisons.

RHC

11-16-2007, 10:44 AM

If that's the case, then why do you keep talking about it? You're right... and everybody else including all the players that have practiced alongside Russell are wrong.

Will somebody rep this guy and get it over with. :rolleyes:Anything of substance to contribute?

Nothing??

Uh-huh.

Jack's sore libido

11-16-2007, 11:29 AM

As soon as you show me a direct correllation between sitting out an entire rookie season and having an above average career, then we'll talk.

There are so many variables in football that you can't show a direct correlation between anything and anything.

I say David Carr, Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, Jeff George, Cade McCown, etc., etc., etc., and you just say those guys sucked on their own and that being thrown in had nothing to do with their demise.

You say Troy Aikman, Peyton Manning, etc., and I can say that those guys were awesome on their own and being thrown in had nothing to do with their success.

Rupert

11-16-2007, 11:30 AM

RHC: I was pointing out the problem with your complaint about the Culpepper comparison.

People aren't saying "Sit Russell just because." They're saying, "Sit Russell until he has better players around him."

When you point out Culpepper had instant success BECAUSE more than half the offense was composed of Pro Bowl players, you only reinforce their argument. You provided the "compelling argument" against starting Russell yourself. Which is what I found funny.

I've stayed off the keep Russell on the bench side for the past week because I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages now. However there are disadvantages. I'll bring a couple up for the sake of discussion:

How can Kiffin evaluate how well Russell follows a progression if he's not getting enough protection to get beyond the first two?
Would you want Russell to get into the habit of pulling the ball down and improvising after the 2nd receiver in a progression if your offense went 4 and 5 receivers deep on the plays you'd like to run most often in the future? If you ask Russell to stand in for 4 reads and he gets hit coming off the 2nd or 3rd he's more likely to get in the habit of escaping pressure after 2 or 3.
If receivers aren't running the best routes, or consistently getting separation, how confident will Russell be in your progressions? Remember, this isn't sandlot football.

Remember, I'm on the side that want's to get Russell playing time as soon as possible. I just recognize that it's not as simple as dropping him in and letting him go. It doesn't work that way. It's not just about him knowing the plays, it's about him executing them. McCown knows the plays better than any other QB on the roster but he can't execute them worth a damn.

Every coach would want their QB to execute the plays properly. Any coach can build up the play book as their QB learns on the fly. The question is about ensuring the QB has enough of what you want so he isn't getting overwhelmed by the opposition. You also want to ensure the players around him can support his learning so that he gains confidence in the system as well as his ability to execute it.

We might very well accept failure as the overall result when Russell hits the field, but it's not great to have the QB expect it. He's got to be able to win more than a few battles so that you can build on that to eventually win the war. That's what I meant by development program. Without it, you'd have to rely on blind luck and great players. Asking a coach to do that is a throwback to the pre-merger and immediate post-merger era. Football is much more complex in the NFL today.

Jack's sore libido

11-16-2007, 11:30 AM

The argument for sitting Russell was "Look at Culpepper. He sat out an entire year and kicked butt when they finally put him in. Therefore Russell will kick butt next year if we sit him as well."

No, that wasn't the argument.

RHC

11-16-2007, 11:31 AM

Then you have other QB's who were supposed to be all world and got the piss beat out of them such as Dave Klingler, Akili Smith, Heath Shuler, Tim Couch, Todd Blackledge and Dan McGuire and didn't have the mental aspect for the game and just got worse as they got the piss beat out of them.Or maybe the pro game was too complicated for them. Or maybe they never had the right weapons around them. Or maybe they were never in the right scheme. Or maybe they never had the right coaches. Or maybe they didn't have the size for the pro game. Or maybe their eyesight went bad. Or maybe they had addictions or other personal problems. Or maybe their arms sucked. Or maybe their leadership skills were crap. Or maybe their teammates never respected them.

Besides, why would a guy who "didn't have the mental aspect for the game" EVER be successful in the NFL whether they played their rookie season or not?

Dan McGwire was a #16 overall pick. Does anyone really expect a #16 pick to be a "world-beater"? If you're going to dust McGwire off we could go out and pull another 50 failed mid-first-round QBs and have a bunch who sat out their rookie year and a bunch who played.

Blackledge played in 4 games and threw only 34 passes in his rookie season and did very well. He barely touched the field. He didn't start eating shit until his SECOND season. What makes you think he failed because he "got the piss beat out of him" as a rookie? Maybe they should have played him MORE as a rookie.

Klingler was also extremely limited in his playing time as a rookie. Not nearly enough PT to "get the piss beat out of him".

Couch just flat out sucked. Who knows why?

You could throw guys like Mirer, Carr and Harrington into your list, but then you could look at guys like McNabb and the two Mannings.

We could go on like this all day. It's a futile exercise.

RHC

11-16-2007, 11:52 AM

RHC: I was pointing out the problem with your complaint about the Culpepper comparison.

People aren't saying "Sit Russell just because." They're saying, "Sit Russell until he has better players around him."
And I'm saying "The reason Pep played great in his second year was NOT because he sat out his first year. There were other factors." Therefore, Pep is a bad example if you're trying to say that sitting a QB in his first year is the best thing to do.
When you point out Culpepper had instant success BECAUSE more than half the offense was composed of Pro Bowl players, you only reinforce their argument.
No I don't. Because without a great QB it would take us another 5 years to field an offense with 7 pro bowlers on it. So following the "logic" being thrtown around here, maybe we should just sit him until the last year of his contract. We might be ready to take care of him then.

How can Kiffin evaluate how well Russell follows a progression if he's not getting enough protection to get beyond the first two?
When will that change? Should we sit him until we can trot McCown out there for 6 games or so without a sack? Should we sit him until we can trade for Calvin Johnson and sign Antonio Gates via FA? Maybe by next season we can acquire Steve Hutchinson and Orlando Pace.

And BTW, what happens if Russell goes out there, gets the ball out quickly and all of a sudden makes his o-line look better? What if our QBs are making the line look shittier than it is?
Would you want Russell to get into the habit of pulling the ball down and improvising after the 2nd receiver in a progression if your offense went 4 and 5 receivers deep on the plays you'd like to run most often in the future? If you ask Russell to stand in for 4 reads and he gets hit coming off the 2nd or 3rd he's more likely to get in the habit of escaping pressure after 2 or 3.
Why would you ask Russell to stand for 4 reads in his rookie season? If you're going to set him up for failure then he'll fail.

He should improvise when he needs to, just like every other QB in the league.
If receivers aren't running the best routes, or consistently getting separation, how confident will Russell be in your progressions? Remember, this isn't sandlot football.
Again, what situation would satisfy you? Are the WRs shit, are the QBs shit or is the line shit? Some of all of thosae? I seem to remember Curry getting good separation and catching balls. Porter too. There's Jordan and Miller as outlets. They can catch.

I fail to understand how any of this could ruin a QB's career. Playing football does not ruin a QB's career.

RHC

11-16-2007, 11:54 AM

No, that wasn't the argument.I see. So it was just a random post that somehow found its way into the middle of an argument over whether or not to start playing Russell right away?

That's an interesting coincidence.

Jack's sore libido

11-16-2007, 11:54 AM

I was an example of a player who sat out a whole year and was successful his first year as a starter.

There was no cause/effect implied. Just an example.

RHC

11-16-2007, 11:56 AM

There are so many variables in football that you can't show a direct correlation between anything and anything.

I say David Carr, Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, Jeff George, Cade McCown, etc., etc., etc., and you just say those guys sucked on their own and that being thrown in had nothing to do with their demise.

You say Troy Aikman, Peyton Manning, etc., and I can say that those guys were awesome on their own and being thrown in had nothing to do with their success.Exactly.

There's no correlation, so there's "no compelling reason" to keep Russell off the field at this point.

Like I said.

Jack's sore libido

11-16-2007, 12:35 PM

Exactly.

There's no correlation, so there's "no compelling reason" to keep Russell off the field at this point.

Like I said.

There's no correlation between playing QBs early and their success late, either.

You can plug your ears and shout "I'm right! I'm right! I'm right!" all you want, but you have brought NOTHING to the table anymore substantive than those who oppose your position.

RHC

11-16-2007, 01:17 PM

There's no correlation between playing QBs early and their success late, either.Is there a correllation between young QBs getting reps in actual games and getting better as a result? Is that substantive? Because that's my whole point here even though I've spent most of my time calling bullshit on the arguments against it.

I'm not talking about Russell's success "late." I'm talking about getting him to a competent level as quickly as possible. It could well be that Russell will be like Druckenmiller and never reach a competent level. However, we have to proceed under the assumption that he will. And the more reps you get the quicker you get there.

I'm talking about Russell heading into 2008 knowing what's in store and being able to prepare himself accordingly. I'm talking about giving him a chance to test all that talent against real opposition in a low-pressure environment (where he doesn't HAVE to win) so he knows exactly what he has to work with at the pro level.

We can either do that with the last 6 games of a completely lost season or with the first 6 games of a new season where everyone has expectations for a much stronger year.

We can burn 2007 AND 2008, or we can use 2007 to get a jump on the possibility of putting something legitimate together in 2008. Playing McCown and Culpepper right now is a complete waste of time. It's a complete waste of reps at the QB position.

Give the reps to Russell and let him start on the learning curve right now. That way he'll be FARTHER UP the learning curve when he starts in 2008. And what I'm saying is that's the ONLY correllation you can make between playing as a rookie and not playing. If you get reps as a rookie you will begin climbing the learning curve sooner. Therefore you will reach your ultimate level of competence sooner.

The point I've made in all these arguments is that a QB's ultimate level of competence will be the SAME whether he plays as a rookie or not. Playing a QB as a rookie will not influence the ultimate level of competence he's capable of reaching at the pro level.

So what we need to do is start Russell on the road to reaching his ultimate level of competence right away. He might suck. The level of competence he's capable of reaching at the pro level might be very disappointing, but that's irrelevant. Whatever his highest level of competence will eventually be, we need to get him there as fast as we can.

Is that substantive?

And yes, I'm right.

Rupert

11-16-2007, 01:29 PM

RHC: Slow down a bit there Hoss. You screwed up my point. When people say, "Sit Russell until we have better players around him." Notice that says "better" not Pro-Bowl. Then the argument for sitting him is reinforced when you point out Culpepper had success because of having Pro Bowlers around him. Most Raiders fans want Russell to have success, so when you point out that another similar player had success because the offense was solid around him, you support the argument for sitting him. If you don't see that, you're not looking, you're just arguing. So slow down.

When will that change? Should we sit him until we can trot McCown out there for 6 games or so without a sack? Should we sit him until we can trade for Calvin Johnson and sign Antonio Gates via FA? Maybe by next season we can acquire Steve Hutchinson and Orlando Pace.
Watch out, you're making arguments for the other side. it would be meaningless for me to set what I think is a good bar for putting Russell out there. I already have said the team has crossed the line and Russell still isn't starting. What good are my milestones if I'm the only one using them?
And BTW, what happens if Russell goes out there, gets the ball out quickly and all of a sudden makes his o-line look better? What if our QBs are making the line look shittier than it is?
I expect the line to look better if the ball gets out quicker, but that requires several things: the receiver has to get open on time, there has to be a throwing lane, and the receiver has to catch the ball. The passing game having success will do wonders for the o-line's confidence. It's one of the reasons I advocate putting Russell out there.
Why would you ask Russell to stand for 4 reads in his rookie season? If you're going to set him up for failure then he'll fail.

He should improvise when he needs to, just like every other QB in the league.
It's why Kiffin hasn't run him out there yet. With a full passing game teams won't be able to jump routes to get him to hold the ball. If you can time the passing game, you can disrupt it. Improvising is one hell of a lot easier if you know where everyone is going to be (knowing all 4 or 5 receivers in the pattern). Otherwise you're guessing, and that's banking on luck. If his only improvisation is running, that creates the bad habit I was talking about.
I fail to understand how any of this could ruin a QB's career. Playing football does not ruin a QB's career.
I'm not worried about his career, I think it will be good at least. If he develops bad habits because of a poor supporting cast, it will take a lot longer for him to become a great QB. Do you really want to complain about him pulling the ball down and running when he had a wide open receiver too often?

Again, I think all of these things can be managed. But those are legitimate concerns about his development, especially for people who had questions about him before we drafted him.

Jack's sore libido

11-16-2007, 03:21 PM

Is there a correllation between young QBs getting reps in actual games and getting better as a result?

There is no correlation between unprepared QBs getting reps and getting better as a result.

Whether or not you want to admit it, there ARE relevant arguments to be made that rushing a QB into games before he's ready will lead to lack of confidence or the development of BAD habits.

Unless you really expect everyone to think that you know more about QB development than NFL coaches and player personnel who believe in that.

The point I've made in all these arguments is that a QB's ultimate level of competence will be the SAME whether he plays as a rookie or not. Playing a QB as a rookie will not influence the ultimate level of competence he's capable of reaching at the pro level.

That's a position that many people who know a lot more than you and I about football would disagree with.

Your ceiling is not preordained.

Stanny

11-16-2007, 04:15 PM

Or maybe the pro game was too complicated for them. Or maybe they never had the right weapons around them. Or maybe they were never in the right scheme. Or maybe they never had the right coaches. Or maybe they didn't have the size for the pro game. Or maybe their eyesight went bad. Or maybe they had addictions or other personal problems. Or maybe their arms sucked. Or maybe their leadership skills were crap. Or maybe their teammates never respected them.

All the QB's I listed had pretty good measurables coming out of college to be an NFL QB so you can throw that out. Scheme or no scheme, you have to produce...you need to absorb and be able to "mentally" as I stated before originally to process the info...you need to have the NFL mentallity to play this game. Eyesight should be checked with yearly physicals....Great NFL HOF QB's have addictions (Brett Favre) and they still stay mentally focused or are head strong to survive. So as you have stated mumbo jumbo at top, I've done the same.

Besides, why would a guy who "didn't have the mental aspect for the game" EVER be successful in the NFL whether they played their rookie season or not?

What I mean by this is, the physical attributes will only get a QB so far. If they dont have the mental edge or smarts, they are TOAST. Whats the easiest way to destroy someones confidence and mentally break them down? Throw them into a situation that they aren't ready for. JRock missed all of the off season program outside of the mini camps...he's still learning. It's like taking the kid from drivers ed who's had a few classes and telling him to merge on to rush hour traffic...But come on, he's had a few classes, give him the keys!
The NFL is a game but its also a business. We only see Sundays, mean while during the week Russell is getting hounded on multiple business deals, fending off calls from appearences, family members asking for cash, yada yada...So to add the pressure off that on top of not being with the team on time, not knowing the playbook 100% and throwing him to the wolves with no arsenal could mentally break him.....I say it could. The good ones as I mentioned before, the Aikmans, Marino's etc had the mental toughness and the question is does Jamarcus?Dan McGwire was a #16 overall pick. Does anyone really expect a #16 pick to be a "world-beater"? Why not? If you are a first round QB choice you better be a world beater. It all depends on the draft needs that year. If a team is set at QB and the draft is deep in DT's, who's going to get drafted first?If you're going to dust McGwire off we could go out and pull another 50 failed mid-first-round QBs and have a bunch who sat out their rookie year and a bunch who played. We can dig up 50 mid round picks who were studs as well...nothing with this point??

Blackledge played in 4 games and threw only 34 passes in his rookie season and did very well. Mop up duty

He barely touched the field. He didn't start eating shit until his SECOND season. Which was the season he STARTED and was running the ship.

What makes you think he failed because he "got the piss beat out of him" as a rookie? I guess I should have said, the year he started in which I would call a "rookie" year being that he never touched the field other than mop duty.But he did have a chance to be with the team for a FULL YEAR and still got the piss beat out of him as he was surrounded by crap talent.
Maybe they should have played him MORE as a rookie.

Klingler was also extremely limited in his playing time as a rookie. Not nearly enough PT to "get the piss beat out of him".

Klingler played towards the end of the year in only 4 games you are correct and got smashed and was hobbling by his second game. The following year the dude got crushed again and didn't finish the season due to injury as a full time starter and each year got worse never finishing a full season due to injury. Similar situation to JRock as he had a team witha poor O-line, not much of a running game but did have a stud WR in the mix...Russell doesn't even have that. Had a Cannon of an arm, set all kinds of records in college and was mentally and physically broken by year 3.

Couch just flat out sucked. Who knows why? I think Couch showed spurts of an NFL QB, but did have a weaker arm and a deterioating shoulder problem that was checked at the time of the combine and got worse as he got the piss beat out of him....I dont think that guy was mental enough from the get go but it sure didn't help with running for his life on every sunday or getting his jaw wired shut.

You could throw guys like Mirer, Carr and Harrington into your list, but then you could look at guys like McNabb and the two Mannings.

Again as I mentioned in my original post...some guys have the "mental" thing and some guys don't. Some can gain it and some can lose it. Its a lot easier to lose it than it is to gain...Im all for easing JRuss into playing and eventually starting, but I wouldn't throw my investment to the wolves right off the bat with his current situation.

We could go on like this all day. It's a futile exercise.

Yes we could and looks like we are.

SoCalRaider

11-16-2007, 05:06 PM

Anything of substance to contribute?

Nothing??

Just following your lead.

RHC

11-16-2007, 05:44 PM

Stanny, you seem to be saying that we shouldn't even start Russell next year. You're citing a bunch of QBs who for all intents and purposes sat the bench as rookies and then still ate crap the next season.

Rup, we're on totally different wavelengths at this point.

Jack, I just look at the facts. All those great minds who know so much more than I do are just too far beyond me. I can't grasp the subtle philosophical nuances. All I see are facts. QBs get drafted. They play or don't play in their rookie seasons. They become good or shitty independent of that fact.

Simple yes or no questions. Does a young QB need live game reps to get better? Does he take a step along the learning curve with each rep?

Because there's no logical precedent that says if you start giving him those reps right now he's more likely to pull a Couch than to pull an Elway.

So if you give Russell those reps now, will he not be better when he starts the season next year? Will he not be further along the learning curve? Will he not have a jump on reading NFL defenses? Will he not have a better feel for the speed of the game? Will he not understand the playbook better? Will he not hae a better rapport with his receivers and o-line? Will he not have a better understanding of the amount of work it takes to succeed in this league? Will he not have a far better idea of his strengths and weaknesses? Will he not know what he needs to focus on in the offseason? Given all these things (and others) will he not have a much better opportunity to win games?

So you see my delimma. The logic is pretty much infallible. He'll learn things he needs to know whether he team around him is great or not. He may even be able to spark us to some wins. That would be great for his confidence level.

Jack's sore libido

11-16-2007, 06:46 PM

I can't grasp the subtle philosophical nuances.

Which is why you'd never be able to coach a team, and why you are wholly unqualified to insist that you're right about something you admit you can't grasp.

Your entire argument is dependent on the idea that any playing time is better than no playing time.

But that's not a certainty, no matter how much you want it to be.

RHC

11-17-2007, 09:16 AM

Fuck it, sit him until we can land Pace and T.O.

Better wrap him in bubble wrap while he's sitting on the bench though. Someone might bump into him.

PT is better than no PT. It's a certainty, no matter how much you don't want it to be.

Jack's sore libido

11-17-2007, 09:48 AM

Riiiiiiiiiight ...

All those actual coaches out there who think otherwise? They need to take a class in RHC Football 101, I guess. :rolleyes:

Pull yer head out, dude.

BigTron

11-17-2007, 12:39 PM

Getting reps < Getting quality reps

JaMarcus going out there with no WR's , Fargas , a questionable line and a rookie TE isnt exactly and ideal situation. Im not saying he shouldnt play this season. BUt lets be honest. Kiffin most likely thought the team would have a better O by this point in the season. Im not sure what Carson Palmer could do on this offense let alone a rookie.

Do we wait until the offense starts playing slightly better? Or do we throw JaMarcus in with little to work with. Tough situation. Im starting to think waiting until next season might be the best move. Im just not seeing any playmakers to help JaMarcus. Rookie HC...

RHC

11-17-2007, 06:01 PM

Getting reps < Getting quality reps

JaMarcus going out there with no WR's , Fargas , a questionable line and a rookie TE isnt exactly and ideal situation...*GASP* It's not an ideal situation??

How could that possibly be the case, when he was drafted by THE WORST TEAM IN THE NFL!

And suddenly Porter and Curry = "no WRs." I can remember a bunch of weenies around here bitching about trading for Moss, saying they were perfectly happy going into 2005 with Curry and Porter starting. Oh, and that DREAMY Doug Gabriel! *sigh* What a stud. We were all set then but now we have nothing, right?

Fargas has started 2 fucking games and he's #22 in rushing yardage. He has 5.0 ypc and he's running like a demon. We have Jordan sitting on the bench, who's #20 in rushing yds with 4.0 ypc. Between the 2 of them they have 1040+ yards rushing and another 350 receiving. Our RBs are perfectly capable of bringing it.

You know what we DON'T have? A QB. That's what we don't have. If anyone feared the pass at all our o-line would look a lot better than it does now.

So the bottom line is that we're not putting Russell out there with a high school team around him.

You people blow my mind. What a bunch of pussies.

I think I'll go haunt a board that has balls. If I can find one.

Meanwhile, you guys play with yourselves and keep those thinking caps on. You're real men of action. You should all be Navy Seals.

:raiderbag:

Jack's sore libido

11-17-2007, 07:08 PM

Oh, the irony of being called a pussy by a dude pitching a bitchfit.

CrossBones

11-17-2007, 07:17 PM

I suspect winning some games and having something other than crap play from the QB position would improve the Raider Nation's disposition by a lot.

Count me in for wanting to see Culpepper get the early hook if he stinks the joint up in the first quarter. Walter, Russell...doesn't matter. Keep throwing out new guys until we find somebody who can complete a friggin' pass. Tall order I know.

And BTW fellas, can we dispense with the name calling? We all know each other pretty well and there is no need for that. Don't make me call in Natty! :nono:

Rupert

11-17-2007, 08:05 PM

RHC: Here's the critical quote as I see it.
Does he take a step along the learning curve with each rep?
Yes, but not everything he can learn is positive. Some of the things he can learn are negative, and that's the main point the people wanting him to sit a little longer are concerned about. It's a valid concern.

The answer to all the other questions you asked is yes with the one caveat above. Russell could start learning bad habits that make his development take longer.

With a lost season after 4 others, people want a quick return to greatness. Maybe it's just fear, but it's a justified fear since MANY other highly touted QB's came into the league and flamed out by "being played too soon." Regardless of the circumstances, many Raiders fans are afraid of wasting 2-3 more years because we "ruined" our #1 draft pick by playing him too soon.

I no longer share that fear, but when the coach does, it's entirely understandable that people defer to his greater knowledge of the situation. That's all I'm trying to convey.

Stanny

11-17-2007, 09:35 PM

Stanny, you seem to be saying that we shouldn't even start Russell next year. You're citing a bunch of QBs who for all intents and purposes sat the bench as rookies and then still ate crap the next season.

Nah...we're just not on the same page bro...I'm basically saying, I don't think the job should be handed to him this Sunday Vs. Minny or next week....what I am saying is, ease the guy into the game..script some plays for him. See how he reacts...Based off of what we see "mainly identifying defenses, being able to audible and make a smart decision" then you increase his playing time which would eventually lead to his start. If the kid crumbles into the feetle position, then you yank him befor you ruin him. Come next year, he will have a FULL YEAR under his belt and hopefully the Raiders through FA and drafting could build a more solid foundation and provide him with some weapons that he would not currently have in 2007. If he would have been with us from Day ONE, I would have no issue of throwing him in there at this point as the starter.

Love da pussy....:p

BigTron

11-18-2007, 01:35 AM

*GASP* It's not an ideal situation??

How could that possibly be the case, when he was drafted by THE WORST TEAM IN THE NFL!

And suddenly Porter and Curry = "no WRs." I can remember a bunch of weenies around here bitching about trading for Moss, saying they were perfectly happy going into 2005 with Curry and Porter starting. Oh, and that DREAMY Doug Gabriel! *sigh* What a stud. We were all set then but now we have nothing, right?

Fargas has started 2 fucking games and he's #22 in rushing yardage. He has 5.0 ypc and he's running like a demon. We have Jordan sitting on the bench, who's #20 in rushing yds with 4.0 ypc. Between the 2 of them they have 1040+ yards rushing and another 350 receiving. Our RBs are perfectly capable of bringing it.

You know what we DON'T have? A QB. That's what we don't have. If anyone feared the pass at all our o-line would look a lot better than it does now.

So the bottom line is that we're not putting Russell out there with a high school team around him.

You people blow my mind. What a bunch of pussies.

I think I'll go haunt a board that has balls. If I can find one.

Meanwhile, you guys play with yourselves and keep those thinking caps on. You're real men of action. You should all be Navy Seals.

:raiderbag:

Dude you need to insert a tampon on your bleeding fan-gina. I believe JaMarcus Russell is going to turn this franchise around...in time. The truth of the matter is his chance to be productive was fucked bigtime this year by holding out. Fargas and LJ are amazing and all according to your power house Oakland offensive stats but how many fuckin TD's are they scoring genius????? Exactly. We have an o-line that still cant be relied upon to passblock, or line-up and play with out committing a penalty and moving the chains BACKWARDS. Curry and J.Porter arent exactly putting the fear in defensive coordinators. You can throw stats at me all day, but tell me how many points we put on the board. Stop acting like next season will be our big Superbowl run as long as JR gets in there and get's reps for a few games. whew heww fire Kiffin and bring and a new HC while your at it.... why take our time. This team is obvious one smart move away from domination.

If JaMarcus gets some reps this year great. If not great. Stop acting like its obvious he needs to play. If he takes his first snaps in an NFL game after training camp in pre-season next year with Darren McFadden and some other new faces on offense he will have a much better chance to succeed. Coach Kiffin doesnt even have a grip on this team yet. You want our 22 year old Qb to lead it?

RHC

11-18-2007, 08:48 AM

This is very close to a quote from Mike Ditka on ESPN just a couple minutes ago, discussing if the move to Culpepper was a good one for the Raiders.

Berman: "Are they looking for a spark?"

Ditka: "You know what they should be looking for? JaMarcus Russell. They picked him #1 overall - #1! And that old theory that a guy needs to sit and watch... You know what you learn by sitting and watching? You learn how to sit, and you learn how to watch. You don't learn how to play football. He needs to ge tout there and start earning his money."

:pound:

Thanks Coach. But don't worry, there are plenty of guys around here who don't think you know a damn thing about football. You don't just throw a guy out there with a bunch of life-size cardboard cutouts. You have to put him in the best position to succeed. Blah blah blah :shakehead:

RHC

11-18-2007, 08:49 AM

Coach Kiffin doesnt even have a grip on this team yet. You want our 22 year old Qb to lead it?You fuckin' got that right. Now we're starting to understand each other.

Raidermania12

11-18-2007, 09:07 AM

Using Ditka as your source for endorsement may hurt you more than help with the silly shit he says on that show.

Jack's sore libido

11-18-2007, 09:27 AM

Ditka: "You know what they should be looking for? JaMarcus Russell. They picked him #1 overall - #1! And that old theory that a guy needs to sit and watch... You know what you learn by sitting and watching? You learn how to sit, and you learn how to watch. You don't learn how to play football. He needs to ge tout there and start earning his money."

If ther's one thing Ditka was known for, it's developing quarterbacks.:rolleyes:

BigTron

11-18-2007, 12:03 PM

our trading away a boatload of shit for sticky Ricky Williams...

RHC

11-19-2007, 05:47 AM

If ther's one thing Ditka was known for, it's developing quarterbacks.:rolleyes:Yeah, McMahon really sucked, didn't he?

RHC

11-19-2007, 05:49 AM

our trading away a boatload of shit for sticky Ricky Williams...Or turning Neal Anderson into a 1200-yd rusher.

Who's Neal Anderson you ask?

Exactly.

jatfly

11-19-2007, 05:56 AM

Wonder if you see a rash of people picking up Priest Holmes for their Fantasy Teams.....OUR EFFIN RUN D IS HORRIBLE...AND IT'S MAKING ME CRAZY.

RHC

11-19-2007, 06:09 AM

You guys are really good at this debate thing. Questioning the knowledge of a former 5-time pro bowler/SB-winning TE who coached a SB-winning team, went 121-95 as a head coach and is now an analyst for the #1 sports channel.

Surely he must know something about QBs? McMahon? Harbaugh? Both pro bowlers with 13 playoff games and a SB win between them.

I don't know, maybe he just got lucky during his 25+ years in the NFL.

That must be it.

But wait, let me guess. He rode his defense all the way, right? :rolleyes:

Except for the fact that he had 6 seasons as a HC where his team was in the top-10 in offense, either in points or yards.

Jack's sore libido

11-19-2007, 09:50 AM

Raiders | Starting job belongs to Culpepper
Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:43:03 -0800

Jerry McDonald, of ANG Newspapers, reports Oakland Raiders head coach Lane Kiffin said the team's starting quarterback job belongs to QB Daunte Culpepper for the team's Week 12 game and possibly beyond. According to reports, QB JaMarcus Russell was expected to start in the team's Week 13 game. However, Kiffin said the report was premature, adding, "It's news to me, anyway."

RHC

12-03-2007, 05:56 AM

Actually he's projected to to reach 800 if he stays consistent. Which brings me to the fact that consistency hasnt been his motto. I saw more in fargas than you ever did in your fickle ways and called for him to start before anybody here. So no need to call me blind to anything. What you may be overlooking is that he's only started 2 games..spin that anyway you want but with his injury history, he has to put in a lil' more work before you "crown his ass" as Dennis Green would say. And I say this as someone who roots for him to do well.
He has 518 yds right now after 9 games. If he keeps up that pace - which of course is a stupid way of looking at it given that he's starting now - he'll hit 921 yds. But of course that's not a good way to extrapolate it since he's our starter now. So he'll go over 1000 yds. It's a simple equation.

And saying he'll hit the 1000-yd mark is equivalent to "crowning him???" Now I know what your problem is. You're so used to seeing garbage on the field you don't remember what good football is. Saying Fargas will hit 1000 yds isn't exactly "crowning" him. He's a solid runner. He's running hard. He has an excellent ypc average. He'll hit 1000 yds. He's part of our good running game. He can help take pressure off Russell. He's part of the solution, not the problem.
863 yds and counting. 4 games left. 106 yds/start. 1287 possible yards if he satys healthy and starts the rest of the year. With only 9 starts the entire season.

Russell has weapons. Our running game is vicious, Zack Miller is emerging and Porter is making circus catches.

Fuck McCown and his one strong game. Russell should be starting.

Raidermania12

12-03-2007, 07:46 AM

Our running game is solid. Vicious is extreme. When those 3 passing td's turn to rushing td's of long runs like dungver did for many years , then it'll be vicious.

Also Dungver has no run defense. I wanted more yards per carry personally. With that said Fargas has proven himself consistently decent(didnt blow me away in the minny game as vicious). He can definitely torch the lower bracket of run defenses and does ok against the better ones.

raiderfreak7

12-03-2007, 09:48 AM

Also Dungver has no run defense. I wanted more yards per carry personally. With that said Fargas has proven himself consistently decent(didnt blow me away in the minny game as vicious). He can definitely torch the lower bracket of run defenses and does ok against the better ones.

Minnesota has two Pro Bowl defensive tackles that shut down virtually every teams running game. They've been the top run defense the last two years.

Raidermania12

12-03-2007, 02:22 PM

Minnesota has two Pro Bowl defensive tackles that shut down virtually every teams running game. They've been the top run defense the last two years.
doesnt mean that its ok to be stuffed by them. Again i see a trap coming up. Because i'm not saying anything negative about fargas. Only that he has been "vicious" all year. Definitely been solid. But not enough home runs yet. With that said i'm happy for him because alot of people here flat out disrespected him to an almost haterism extreme level. I said this system may be a big deal for him because its all he ran in through college at UofM and USC. He fits it and it shows. I said jordan doesnt fit it, and though he tried it eventually became that. So definitely no knocks at this point on Fargas, actually its funny. Because people are about to break the bandwagon he got them hopping on.

s.dot88

12-03-2007, 11:48 PM

Fargas has played well, but im not ready to sign over the role of a feature back to him

the main thing i noticed from the denver game was that as the defense was getting worn down, so was fargas

i dont see him being a guy that can carry the ball 25 times, 16 games a year

we need to start preserving him this year and look for Bush to be his complementary back next season

either that or target McFadden in the draft

poptart

12-04-2007, 12:52 AM

I agree with what you are saying on Fargas, dot.
I couldn't be happier with what I am seeing from him, but I firmly believe he's gonna need help next year.
Is Bush the guy?
Hope so.

Our O-Line is opening holes for Fargas, and to his credit, he's hitting them well.
He's no nonsense, he runs tough, and he's a smart player.

I still believe we need more speed at our skill positions.
We will, no doubt, bring in a burner at WR.

RHC

12-04-2007, 06:12 AM

Give me a break guys.

Fargas is going to reel off 1100 yards this season and he's only started 5 games. Through the first 7 games he averaged 8 carries/game and he's STILL going to put up over 1000. Right now he's 9th in the league with 4 games left.

MIN is #1 in the league in rushing defense. They're giving up an average of 70 yds/game. Fargas put 60 on them behind our shit OL. We did exactly what we should have done against MIN - threw for 344 yds.

He had 33 carries against DEN. I rarely saw him on the sidelines. He's certainly in better shape than Lamont Jordan. He's the reason we dominated the time of possession.

He ran hard last year when we needed him. He's no flash in the pan.

Our ground game is vicious because we consistently get first downs even on 3rd and long. Those are back-breakers.

RHC

12-04-2007, 06:41 AM

I point out once again that you guys want to wait until JR has a good chance of success. But when he finally has a good chance to succeed you want to wait for... what? More wins? Who's to say we won't get them with Russell?? You really think all of a sudden that "McClown" - your nickname for him, not mine - is the righteous point man we need to run the table?

If you DON'T think we can win with Russell, what makes you believe he can win for us next year when he's been sitting on the bench all of THIS year? "You know what you learn by sitting and waiting? You learn how to sit, and you learn how to wait." Those skills will really serve the team well come Sept. 2008, won't they?

This whole "Oh my God, he missed training camp, and he doesn't know shit about playing football and he couldn't go through progressions to save his life and he's so colossally stupid he can't pick up even 1/100th of the playbook, blah blah blah..." It's stale, people. He was the #1 draft pick because he knows how to play the game. He played in the best conference in college football. He's been with the team almost 3 months. He had a strong initial outing. So save the whole "he's not ready" bullshit.

We have to buy early success in 2008 by putting a down payment on it right now. McCown won't be here. Fuck him. Culpepper won't be here. Good riddance. It's doubtful that even Walter will be here.

We lucked out against KC. Great.

We beat Shanahan because of Fargas, our defense and our STs. Fabulous. Russell can ride that same wave of gifts to victory.

Whatever. You're all blind.

RHC

12-04-2007, 07:06 AM

Sapp doesn't know shit about football either.
"I didn't expect anything different from him," Sapp said. "He's got it. Not all the mental aspects and checks and this and that or whatever. But the general tools of being a quarterback, he's always had it. He's a monster. I just can't wait until they give him the whole horse and let him whip it and do what he wants to do with it. I watch him every day. He's special."I guess his career-long quest to be up close and personal with every QB he plays against doesn't qualify him to judge the situation, right?

poptart

12-04-2007, 07:38 AM

RHC, Fargas is doing a GREAT job.
I totally love what he's done this year, and he's our offensive MVP for sure.

He's had 181 carries.
He's not ever proven that he can carry the load over the course of an entire season, 's'all I'm sayin'.

I believe we're wise to assume, for the sake of safety, that he can't carry the load by himself over the course of a whole season.

Bush (or someone else) needs to be good to go, IMO.

Jack's sore libido

12-04-2007, 09:20 AM

But when he finally has a good chance to succeed you want to wait for... what? More wins?

Pay attention, dude.

Everyone's happy to see Russell get in the game.

If you DON'T think we can win with Russell, what makes you believe he can win for us next year when he's been sitting on the bench all of THIS year?

That's the point. He won't have been sitting on the bench ALL of this year. He was already worked into 2 series. Maybe next week he can get 4 series.

Work him in slowly, giving him what he can handle. When he's got FULL grasp of the playbook and has grown accustomed to NFL speed, unleash the beast.

Last I checked, by the by, McCown threw 3 TD passes against Denver. Fargas was big. The defense stepped it up. But those passes were huge, and you can't ASSUME Russell would have thrown them.

Raidermania12

12-04-2007, 09:43 PM

Give me a break guys.

Fargas is going to reel off 1100 yards this season and he's only started 5 games. Through the first 7 games he averaged 8 carries/game and he's STILL going to put up over 1000. Right now he's 9th in the league with 4 games left..

Well you make more of a point that he hasnt proven to be a 16 game starter yet. He's proven to be a great change of pace RB who can start when needed. We signed Lamont Jordan on the notion that his amazing stats in limited action would translate to a 16 game season. We paid for that theory once. No need to pay for it twice and put everything on Fargas back instead getting him a RB to share carries. A guy who breaks those tackles in the 4th quarter that Fargas does not. .

RHC

12-05-2007, 10:26 AM

Well you make more of a point that he hasnt proven to be a 16 game starter yet. He's proven to be a great change of pace RB who can start when needed. We signed Lamont Jordan on the notion that his amazing stats in limited action would translate to a 16 game season. We paid for that theory once. No need to pay for it twice and put everything on Fargas back instead getting him a RB to share carries. A guy who breaks those tackles in the 4th quarter that Fargas does not. .We have plenty of RBs to share carries with him RIGHT NOW. Jordan and Rhodes could do a great job spelling him. You can't ask for better backups. Yet we don't play them. We put it all on his back because he goes out there and kicks ass for us.

Don't be a fool. You don't know what you're talking about. You've got nothing but a gut feeling.

Besides, WTF does this have to do with Russell having a great running game to lean on? Because that's the whole point.

RHC

12-05-2007, 10:29 AM

Pay attention, dude.

Everyone's happy to see Russell get in the game.Dude, I've read all the drivel.

Don't patronize me. You know I'm not talking about getting Russell in for 2 series. That's a cute little thing to do, throwing the fans a bone, but it doesn't put us in the best situation going into 2008.

RHC

12-05-2007, 10:31 AM

Last I checked, by the by, McCown threw 3 TD passes against Denver. Fargas was big. The defense stepped it up. But those passes were huge, and you can't ASSUME Russell would have thrown them.Wow, we've paid a #1 overall draft pick $60M and we can't assume he can throw the ball 15 yards to his receivers. We can't assume the guy can make plays. We can't assume the guy has picked up any of the playbook. We can't assume he can read a defense worth a crap. We can't assume he can make more good decisions than bad.

We're idiots.

Jack's sore libido

12-05-2007, 10:37 AM

That's a cute little thing to do, throwing the fans a bone, but it doesn't put us in the best situation going into 2008.

The coach disagrees with you.

The coach, even at his age, has forgotten more about football and player development than you will ever know -- in particular with this player, since you've spent absolutely NO TIME around Russell, while he has spent all season overseeing the man's development.

Give it a rest already. We all know how you feel about it.

Jack's sore libido

12-05-2007, 10:37 AM

We're idiots.

Well, one of us anyway.

RHC

12-05-2007, 02:05 PM

The coach disagrees with you.That's OK. Art Shell disagreed with most of my opinions too. So did Norv.

They got fired and set us back years in trying to get back to winning.

You seem to consider yourself a fool outsider who's a football idiot in comparison with all the people who get paid to coach. I'm glad you agree with everything Kiffin's doing and have come to the conclusion that he has God's own knowledge when it comes to football. Obviously you also believe the man doesn't have any of his own agendas that may conflict with what this team should really be doing. There are no power struggles, no points he thinks he has to make, nothing like that.

It's obvious that, with our sterling 4-8 record, Kiff has it all locked up and has made all the right decisions so far. Why would I ever think he might be making some mistakes? Who am I to question a guy who has taken us to the 4-8 promised land? I should be bowing at his altar and sacrificing my firstborn in worship.

So I guess my point is that just because "the coach disagrees with me" doesn't mean I'm wrong. If he agreed with me on these things I wouldn't be discussing them.

Don't be a fool. Again.

Raidermania12

12-05-2007, 02:27 PM

We have plenty of RBs to share carries with him RIGHT NOW. Jordan and Rhodes could do a great job spelling him. You can't ask for better backups. Yet we don't play them. We put it all on his back because he goes out there and kicks ass for us.

Lamont hasnt really been doing much in a spell roll and you can't speak for Rhodes until he actually touches the ball. Nevertheless what does this have to do with Fargas being or not being a proven 16 game starter? :confused:

Don't be a fool. You don't know what you're talking about. You've got nothing but a gut feeling.
At this point I get the impression that you're talking to yourself because the whole basis of this tirade is built on your Gut Feeling. Pretty Ironic batch of hypocrisy here. Unless of course you are on Kiffin's staff and have the inside track on whose ready for what. Saying you know more than the coach is about as Foolishly gut feeling as you can get. I don't even get why you put this line in your post as if the notion that starting 5 games successfully doesnt equate to starting 16 games successfully is foolish. I can't even take you seriously when you write shit off just for the hell of it.
Besides, WTF does this have to do with Russell having a great running game to lean on? Because that's the whole point.
Wasn't the topic I addressed. I merely pointed out that your point didnt really do much to endorse Fargas as full time RB. It actually did the opposite. But actually never mind. Fargas is starting RB and Kiffin still calls the shots. You're taking moot points to an extreme level.

Jack's sore libido

12-05-2007, 03:01 PM

You seem to consider yourself a fool outsider who's a football idiot in comparison with all the people who get paid to coach.

No, I just acknowledge that the coach has a lot more knowledge than me, and certainly more than you, ESPECIALLY when it comes to a player whom no media member (i.e., your only access to knowing about Russell's development) has seen in meaningful practice time.

I'm glad you agree with everything Kiffin's doing and have come to the conclusion that he has God's own knowledge when it comes to football. Obviously you also believe the man doesn't have any of his own agendas that may conflict with what this team should really be doing. There are no power struggles, no points he thinks he has to make, nothing like that.

Hyperbole makes you look so smart and credible. Really, it does.

So I guess my point is that just because "the coach disagrees with me" doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I didn't say you're wrong.

I said you're a freakin' broken record, and your opinion is immaterial.

RHC

12-06-2007, 08:11 AM

I said you're a freakin' broken record, and your opinion is immaterial.All of our opinions are immaterial. Let's shut the place down.

hawaiianboy

12-06-2007, 09:14 AM

Wow, we've paid a #1 overall draft pick $60M and we can't assume he can throw the ball 15 yards to his receivers. We can't assume the guy can make plays. We can't assume the guy has picked up any of the playbook. We can't assume he can read a defense worth a crap. We can't assume he can make more good decisions than bad.

I don't know how much we'll see him at Green Bay, but I think you'll see JaMarcus as the starter the last three games of the season no matter how McCown does against Green Bay... It also wouldn't surprise me in the least if Culpepper was flat out released or IR'ed after that race nonsense...

We're idiots.

Was there ever any doubt?...

I believe we're wise to assume, for the sake of safety, that he can't carry the load by himself over the course of a whole season.

Bush (or someone else) needs to be good to go, IMO.

Fargas and Bush works for me... I'd like to add Aaron Stecker as a free agent or a guy like him to the equation though... Hopefully, we can get a deal done with Fargas before the season is done rather than waiting til the Tejans or some other zone scheme team drives the price up...