JaMarcus vs Lienart

[BigTron]

I was debating this with some friends and I made an interesting point to them i wanted to share. For those who already know this, I just wanted to make sure everyone was aware.
People have been getting on my nerve's saying if we had selected Lienart over Huff last year that we would be in a better position right now. That is because everyone like Kiper, Mayock, Clayton and blog terds keep saying something that makes ZERO sense. They say if we had drafted Matt last year we could have drafted CJ this year. I smoke alot of weed and this sounds stupid to me. This is not logical thought at all. If Matt Lienart was drafted by us last year then we would not be drafting #1 overall. If your telling me this guy wouldnt of added one win to our total your crazy. He is a solid QB, i believe he would have added up to 2 more. So we would have had no shot at CJ. On the other hand if Matt Lienart wasnt good enough to help us win 1 more game(we were leading 6 losses at h-time) then i would rather have JaMarcus anyway. So either way this question blows. I have heard so many people bust are balls for this. Look at the teams drafting in the top 4, Oakland, Detroit, Cleveland, TB... not one big name QB in the group. If QB is an important postion and we had the worst rating's in the NFL, i believe we could have won 1 or 2 more with Lienart or Vince even thought they are rookies.

JaMarcus and Huff
or
Leinart and Landry

that seems like more of realistic scenario to me. OR Lienart and anyone but CJ.

Sorry to rant but if somebody asks me that again im gonna flip.

P.S I also will stick up for Huff to people who talk smack on him. They obviously hadnt seen our Safety postion the last 5 years. When a 50 year old Rod Woodson comes in and looks like the best player it speaks volume's. Huff had a safety and 64 tackles and didnt get burned much at all. For a rookie playing out of positon thats not bad. He was a full time starter for the #1 pass D in the NFL as a rook. Guarding guys like Tony G and Gates, two future HOF tight ends!!!!. I thought it was a good thing when you didnt hear the name of guys in the secondary! He is going to be a future star if i had any V-cash id bet it all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

Feel free to turn this into a contrast thread like the title would indicate. Its gonna come up eventually.

[Raiderfan007]

Russell + Huff beats Leinart + Landry.

Russell's upside is matched by nobody, and although the slight safety edge would go to Landry, Huff's versatility evens it out. (CB/FS/SS)

I would like to already have a QB in place, with a year under his belt, but JR doesnt come around every year.

I've never heard so many coaches (Kiffin, Cam Cameron, Petrino and Mariucci) or Gm's (Casserly, Beathard, Savage, Davis) or draft analysts (Kiper, Mayock, McShay) say so many good things about a QB prospect since Carson Palmer...And he wasnt 21 coming into the NFL and standing 6-6 260.

Lets not forget Leinart had a very weak Pro day, and his fall was somewhat expected, like Quinns...We all knew JR was the clearcut #1 QB.


Leinart + CJ beats damn near anything though.

PS: Not that I want to start anythinhg, but Huff's first season was underwhelming for me. He missed tackles, and although his coverage was good, he got beat pretty hard by Gates early, and had some weak plays. I see nothing but upside with him though.

[Turo]

Lienart is still overrated, and no, I don't believe he would have won a single more game for us last year. Not to be combative.. but you DID watch our stone-age play calling, useless pass protection and lack of a consistent rushing attack, right? Not a chance he does any better. None.

[RaiderIVlife]

Impossible to say now, but I'd rather have Russell & Huff over Lienert & Landry. Huff is going to blossum in year 2 or 3 and will likely be our best secondary player (with all apologies to Asomugha) in very short order. Primarily because of his versatility and 'sick' God given ability.

Russell? The One Million Dollar question, but I suspect that Al Davis has the right long term plan in place with Kiffin & Company, plus veteran QB's in McCown/Walter to start the season.

[BigTron]

I dont think Matt's the next Peyton or anything but i do think he is much better than Walter or Brooks. If he were playing QB in those 6 games we went into the second half leading I thihnk he would of lead the team to another win or two. Some games were the QB's faults last year. It wasnt completely the offense, more like bit of everything. Walter holds the ball too long... Brooks is Aaron Brooks, you have to admit Lienart would have helped more in those 6 leading games we lost.. I just dont think we would have ended up with CJ and Leinart as so many touted draft guru's claim. That much of an upgrade at QB would have gotten us 1 more win at least IMO.

As far as Huff I thought his rookie campaign was very solid. He is lightning fast and is very young. I think it was definetly a learning expierience for him, like it should be. No rookie should be expected to beast. Its a nice suprise when it happens but a very lofty goal. Huff had a few mishaps but for the most part looked solid covering world class athlete's for the first time,on a whole new defense with all new guys. I think learning S/MLB in the NFL is the defensive equivalent of learning QB. It takes some game exp. to get you up to speed. Huff's play would rank higher on the SS scale last season than V.Davis, M.Williams, M.Lienart and D.Fuergeson would at their respective postions. Think about it that way. Brick gave up 10+ sacks, Matt had some ugly games and a bad comp%, Mario was busty and V.Davis was injured. I Think you also have to consider the guy is obviously a FS playing SS. Huff is one of the reasons to feel hopeful for this young defense, i bought the jersey im in for the long haul.

[Raiderfan007]

Good post.

I think he is out of position playing SS, and keeping him in the box. Its a testament to his talent that he played so well as a SS.

It was silly thinking to steer a guy away from his strengths (IE, playing the ball, covering guys and roaming in space)

I do think he was solid, but for a guy pegged as a 'big play waiting to happen' I didnt see one.

[BigTron]

Good post.

I think he is out of position playing SS, and keeping him in the box. Its a testament to his talent that he played so well as a SS.

It was silly thinking to steer a guy away from his strengths (IE, playing the ball, covering guys and roaming in space)

I do think he was solid, but for a guy pegged as a 'big play waiting to happen' I didnt see one.

Yeah i dont know where those were? I hope he was truthful when claiming he was just nervous about gambling and giving up big plays. I like the fact he isnt wreckless but no INT's does sting... I swear he had a forced fumble in the last KC game! Roll the footage...

[RaiderIVlife]

Good post.

I think he is out of position playing SS, and keeping him in the box. Its a testament to his talent that he played so well as a SS.

It was silly thinking to steer a guy away from his strengths (IE, playing the ball, covering guys and roaming in space)

I do think he was solid, but for a guy pegged as a 'big play waiting to happen' I didnt see one.

I'm personally a proponent of him playing FS (mostly becuase I don't think that much of SS @ FS), BUUUUUTTTTTT, you can't deny that he basically shut down TE's last year and should only be better this year. In the AFC West alone we have to face Antonio Gates & Tony Gonzales twice per year. Cooper isn't athletic enough, Gibson was too fucking clueless and Stewie isn't physical enough to handle those guys. Also, I suspect that Al Davis will never forget (or forgive) the infamous "Shannon Sharpe play".

Besides, as others have aptly pointed out, the Raiders don't play a traditional FS & SS anyway. The responsibilities often flip-flop and then you have down & distance considerations (big nickel, etc.)

Unless Bing and/or Frampton are ready to assume SS duty full time, I think we'll probably continue to see Huff at SS.

[BigTron]

I half serious, but we should have allow one asshole on the team and trade Stu for Sean Taylor who wants a new contract. I hate to diss my man Stu for this jerk, but MAN can he hit. He hits so hard i dont care what grimey stuff he gets into on the weekends, haha. I cant wait for the day we get that enforcer back there ripping off these smarmie WR's heads. I bet AL took a hard look at Taylor when we selected Gallery.

[RaiderIVlife]

I half serious, but we should have allow one asshole on the team and trade Stu for Sean Taylor who wants a new contract. I hate to diss my man Stu for this jerk, but MAN can he hit. He hits so hard i dont care what grimey stuff he gets into on the weekends, haha. I cant wait for the day we get that enforcer back there ripping off these smarmie WR's heads. I bet AL took a hard look at Taylor when we selected Gallery.

Dude, could you imagine Sean Taylor and Michael Huff as our starting safeties? Sheeet.....that would be sweeeet.

Stewie ain't scarin' anyone in this league.

[massraider]

I always thought Leinart was overrated.

It's awful how many bone heads have already decided that he is a stud QB.

[Raiderfan007]

Washington's safety duo aint half bad right now...

Landry and Taylor?

Absolute sickness.

[RaiderIVlife]

Washington's safety duo aint half bad right now...

Landry and Taylor?

Absolute sickness.

True enough. Besides, I doubt that Daniel Snyder want's to move ST anyway.

[BigTron]

He is missing training camp. He has complained to local media every year his deal stinks. Synder is a bitch and will most likely pay him. But Taylor complains almost annually around here. He is a bonehead on the field though actually. He will lose a game for you on a crucial last drive with a late hit, or personal foul. He isnt the brightest player by any means. With that said... hardest hitter in the league? I cant think of anyone who can hit better.

[Turo]

Huff's value to the defense playing the rover-safety goes way beyond the stat sheet. He was constantly flying all over the field, turning plays back inside to the linebackers or slashing past blockers to disrupt the play behind the line of scrimmage. The guy was one of the biggest reasons our defense was cohesive and productive... and he's playing out of position! Have to agree, it would be nice to see a big wood-laying mother starting at SS and Huff playing FS. He's got better speed and all around athleticism than Stewie.

In defense of Stewie's manhood, I will say there is at least one TE that will be having nightmares for a long time, and that's Heath Miller. Dude got his shit knocked the fuck out in the Steelers game we went to.

[RaiderIVlife]

Huff's value to the defense playing the rover-safety goes way beyond the stat sheet. He was constantly flying all over the field, turning plays back inside to the linebackers or slashing past blockers to disrupt the play behind the line of scrimmage. The guy was one of the biggest reasons our defense was cohesive and productive... and he's playing out of position! Have to agree, it would be nice to see a big wood-laying mother starting at SS and Huff playing FS. He's got better speed and all around athleticism than Stewie.

In defense of Stewie's manhood, I will say there is at least one TE that will be having nightmares for a long time, and that's Heath Miller. Dude got his shit knocked the fuck out in the Steelers game we went to.

Everything you said about Michael Huff - and he's only going to get better. It might sound like hyperbole, but he will be our best DB in short order. Even better than Nmandi IMO.

[Knight]

What the mother fuck would Matt Leinart have done in this offense last year?

Nothing to improve our record.

Did some of you guys go to the kenroher school of football or something?

[BigTron]

What the mother fuck would Matt Leinart have done in this offense last year?

Nothing to improve our record.

Did some of you guys go to the kenroher school of football or something?

I have to respectfully disagree. I dont think he would have made a huge difference but we wouldnt have been picking #1 overall. He would off added a win or two. QB play cost us a few games last year just like coaching did. Lienart is way better than Brooks or Walter. I dont think Lienart is great or anything, but we lead after half time in 6 games we ended up losing. IMO Lienart would have pulled out one of those for us. Brooks and Walter werent getting any hellp from he offense but they werent exactly making any plays either...

[RaiderIVlife]

I have to respectfully disagree. I dont think he would have made a huge difference but we wouldnt have been picking #1 overall. He would off added a win or two. QB play cost us a few games last year just like coaching did. Lienart is way better than Brooks or Walter. I dont think Lienart is great or anything, but we lead after half time in 6 games we ended up losing. IMO Lienart would have pulled out one of those for us. Brooks and Walter werent getting any hellp from he offense but they werent exactly making any plays either...

Which is precisely why the Raiders drafted JaMarcus Russell and trade for Josh McCown. While it's the true the offense did nothing to "help" Brooks/Walter, it's also 100% obvious that the Raiders fully realize that Walter AINT the answer at QB. Hence the offseason moves to this point.

[Raidermania12]

Can we change this to the no contest thread? Also I agree with Knight. Leinart did not win them any big games based on his play alone. I'd take Russell over him and furthermore so would Kiffin I bet. Which would say enough.

[BigTron]

Can we change this to the no contest thread? Also I agree with Knight. Leinart did not win them any big games based on his play alone. I'd take Russell over him and furthermore so would Kiffin I bet. Which would say enough.

I also would rather have JR than Lienart. But i actually will bet anybody who wants some action MLienarts ratings this year will be no worse than any of the young QB's everybody else sweats(Cutler,V.Young, Rivers,Smith etc.). He is going to be a future pro-bowl QB because he has the poise that alot if QB's lack. His passing #'s crushed Vince Young and he made the Pro-Bowl/ROY/Madden cover. I obviously know Young won games with his feet but QB's are suppose to succed passing to win Superbowls last time i checked.

[Raidermania12]

thats fine and dandy. but being as bad as the rest doesnt make a good rookie campaign nor does it provide proof of anything. Also Young proved that he had the playmaking ability when it counted(which is basically what built his rep). Leinart again didnt just wow me. I mean damn, anyone here would trade our top 4 receivers to have the cards top 2 WR's. Ask titan fans and they'd say the same. When I compare him to the other rookies, i dont see anything yet. And furthermore he wasn't even close to jay cutler in performance. i dont see him as on par with anyone of significance yet. He still looks like a prospect, and far less potential than Jamarcus russell. Again this is a no contest thread. not an assault on leinart at all. just an assault on the comparison of him to Russell at this moment.

Also Super Bowls are irrelevant to the topic imo. Its not in either guy's near future. personally i think VY may be stuck in the randal cunningham/michael vick zone of being good, just not good enough to win all. I dont think Leinart wins the cards a SB either. His lack of field stretching arm strength and down field accuracy(pennington proved that you can stretch the field if your accurate, but leinarts accuracy down field isnt much to have faith in) with not enough elusive qualities to compensate with make having an expensive all world o-line a must. I dont see the cards buying an o-line that good.

[BigTron]

the thread actually started out saying if we had drafted Leinart we would have won at least one more game putting us out of contention for CJ. I do apologize for the misleading title.
However Cutler's QB rating was 88 and Lienart's was 77 Vince Youngs 66. So i kinda think your dogging the guy when he had a TERRIBLE offensive line and no running game. Larry Fitzgerald and Bolden missed about 12 games all together too(killed my fantasy team). Cutler is running a much better offense in Denver, sick running game, great line, Rod Smith Javon Walker etc.. and i dont think 11 points of QB rating makes him much better than Matt Lienart running a shitty AZ team... just my opinion of course. I do agree Matts arm strength is mediocre and JR has a far far greater upside. I just appreciate all the starts and big games Lienart has been in. He has played at a very high level in college. Much higher than JR/Cutler did. Im playing devils advocate here but you see my stance. I am big on poise in the pocket under pressure and i really like watching Matt Lienart make Drew Brees type plays with his feet. He is a cool customer. I really hope JR is too. He flashed signs of being a very relaxed player as well at LSU.

anywho my opinion

1. J.Russell (could be a great NFL passer)
2. V.Young (Because i see his pass game improving)
3. M.Lienart (Leader, smart QB)
4. J.Cutler (nice arm but unproven in college and NFL IMO, still a great young QB just not better than those guys)
5. Brady Quinn (smart QB, choke artist)

[Raidermania12]

Actually it was 74 qb rating with a more talented starting receivers than both the other guys. :D VY's rating is irrelevant though, he's not a pocket qb and didn't get his accolades because of that. so whatever ballwashing came his way, its no linear comparison to leinart. agree to disagree on his value. But I will say that against teams that man up and don't zone alot like the eagles, raiders, and steelers; he will always be stuck because he can't stretch the field. Against zones his short passing accuracy will give him a chance to start in this league. But I dont have much belief in him excelling to another level. Also in a short passing offense hitting 60+ percent is easy. when we shortened ours up Walter hit 66, 70, and 73(hit this on 37 attempts at that) percent completions in his final three games.

The thing I give Russell props for that truly sets him apart is that he can throw for 60 + percent throwing all over the field. That attribute gives him a shot to be something special.

1. J.Russell (could be a great NFL passer)
2. V.Young (Because i see his pass game improving)
3. M.Lienart (Leader, smart QB)
4. J.Cutler (nice arm but unproven in college and NFL IMO, still a great young QB just not better than those guys)
5. Brady Quinn (smart QB, choke artist)

I'd put cutler above Leinart. Cutler's gonna have more help for a long time on defense and on the ground game. Leinart is slightly above Quinn. I'm not crowning his ass a leader or "smart" at the nfl level yet, he is who we thought he his. :p

[BigTron]

I agree with some of that. I would rather be Cutler behind that offense and running game. Javon Walker is a very solid reciever and actually had a better season last year than Boldin or Fitzgerald. (8 TD's)(1,000+). Cutler also didnt play as many games as Leinart. But the biggest factor is that their is nop comparison between the offensive lines. The Bronco's have one of the best in the NFL, the Cards have one of the worst. Better rushing game and a better defense. I think its unfair to compare the stats too closely. I am not actually as big of a Lienart fan as i making myself out to be, but my GUESS is if you asked Kiffin he would most likely choose Leinart over Cutler too. Cant deny Matt looked very good in some games for the Cards last year. He had a few rookie QB games but he had one game with an 88 rating and another with 91.7. Hopefully those stats are right, haha. Either way we got JaMarcus so we straight! Cheers.

[Byron2112]

Good thread you guys.

I actually like Cutler over Rivers too.

I think his #'s will be superior.

[BigTron]

Good thread you guys.

I actually like Cutler over Rivers too.

I think his #'s will be superior.

Yeah actually with the addition of Graham and Travis Henry plus the great line and J.Walker. Cutler is going to have a very good year. He is in the best position to succeed of any young QB. P.Rivers doesnt have a much help at WR. I doubt Craig Davis makes much of an impact in his rookie season. He was a stretch in the 1st round.