QB poll tied in with taking CJ at 1...

[hawaiianboy]

Since the Calvin Johnson at #1 bandwagon seems to be picking up some steam, I'm trying to wrap my head around it and reach some kind of comfort zone... I still believe taking a WR at 1 with no established QB is putting the jackass before the cart, but putting that aside and assuming Al wants the kid at one, what would be your LONG TERM choice at QB with CJ now able to leap tall buildings wearing a Raider uni???...

[Madturk]

Actually, I still think if we choose to bring in McCown we should still draft a QB in the 2nd or 3rd if we go the CJ route. I'm warming up to the possibiity of Drew Stanton.

[RHC]

Aaron Rodgers still has a ton of upside. If Losman can pull himself out of the muck Rodgers can too. Easily the best LONG TERM solution on the table. Plus it gets rid of Moss, saves our 2nd-rounder and gets us CJ. Rodgers/CJ/Porter/Curry/Gabe >>> Russell/Moss/Porter/Curry/Gabe

We can take Brian Leonard or OL in the 2nd, then pick Ben Patrick or BPA QB in the 3rd.

[massraider]

Cripes, those options just stengthened my JaMarcus resolve.

I voted McCown.

[jatfly]

How about trade for McCown and draft another guy or trade for Rodgers too,,,,,then let the best man win best win......Walter, McCown or Rodgers

[Jack's sore libido]

The key phrase is long-term.

[gst8]

Every other option blows.

We'd have no choice but to hope for another shot at a top rated QB in next years draft.

Of course, everyone would pick those guys apart until they were nothing but 2nd day scrubs with no future in the league as well...

[donovan]

Troy Smith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drew Stanton

It's only two inches. It's more how you use the size you got.........

[massraider]

Troy Smith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drew Stanton

It's only two inches. It's more how you use the size you got.........

Your girlfriend is lying to you. I am sorry.

[YodasBeast]

I think Jat has the right idea with trading for McCown and letting him, Walter and a rook fight for the spot.

[TheNextStep]

I still like Andrew Walter, but he's used up his "still learning the game" free pass at this point.

I think Josh McCown's upside peaks at "mediocre."

I think Aaron Rodges sucks.

I think Duante Culpepper is damaged goods who won't ever recapture his previous glory.

I think Jake Plummer is retired and should stay that way - in the middle of a playoff run, he got benched for a rookie. Think about that.

Joey Harrington has been given plenty of chances and could never capitalize on them.

Tim Rattay would make a nice backup somewhere but is no long term answer.

I'm not particularly thrilled with any of the lower rated quarterbacks enough to call them a long term answer to anything.

So... my answer is:

Brian Brohm next year, after drowning my sorrows about our offensive ineptitude for another season.

[Madturk]

Thanks for the bright ray of sunshine Stepper. Man I feel like I did after watching the Elephant Man for the first time.

[massraider]

Brian Brohm next year, after drowning my sorrows about our offensive ineptitude for another season.


Nah, next year it'll be, "No need to take Brohm, QB's take too long to develop. Let's get a vet QB. Plus, we took Kolb last year, I'd really like to see what he can do. We should give him a shot. If he doesn't work out, then we can take Jimmy fucking Clausen in 2010."

[Jack's sore libido]

Nah, next year it'll be, "No need to take Brohm, QB's take too long to develop. Let's get a vet QB. Plus, we took Kolb last year, I'd really like to see what he can do. We should give him a shot. If he doesn't work out, then we can take Jimmy fucking Clausen in 2010."

On the other hand, if we were to take Russell this year and Calvin Johnson blows up for someone else, it'll be:

"This is why you don't take a QB until you've already built your OL. This team has ruined JaMarcus. He's another Akili Smith. Another Ryan Leaf. Another Joey Harrington. Another David Carr. Look at the Bengals. They did it right. They drafted Levi Jones in the top 10, had Willie Anderson in place, grabbed Rudi Johnson and Chad Johnson and T.J. Houshmandzadeh, THEN they finished it off with Carson Palmer and didn't get him killed and demoralized.

"Look at the Colts. They did it right. They drafted Marvin Harrison, then Tarik Glenn and Adam Meadows, THEN grabbed Peyton Manning so he wouldn't get killed or demoralized. And even then they didn't win until they got Edgerrin James."

And if the Raiders draft Russell and he's actually able to stay upright behind that line, people will say:

"Look at the Raiders. They did it right. They signed Moss and LaMont, developed Porter and Curry, drafted Gallery and Grove and Boothe and McQuistan, THEN finished it off with JaMarcus Russell and didn't get him killed or demoralized."

In other words, hindsight is 20/20, and the way these guys perform -- regardless of who the Raiders draft -- will be the ONLY way to judge the way the team is built.

[massraider]

It's not hindsight, Jack, it's the MO for the last several years. There is a crew that never wants to take a shot on a top rookie QB, no matter what. And they won't want one next year, no matter what. They have Rich Gannon, Tom Brady, and the 2000 Baltimore Ravens as all the proof they need.

No matter what Russell and CJ do, they won't want a QB in the 1st. Because frankly, if someone isn't ready to take a shot on a QB after Rivers, Ben, Vince, Leinart, and Cutler, they never will. 1st round QB's have a darn good record lately.


It doesn't matter which QB is coming out, there'll always be a Tuiasosopo, or Walter, or McCown, or frigging Dreisbach, or someone else that ain't proved squat, that they'll want to 'give a chance' to.

I expect CJ to be stud, from Day 1. Why wouldn't he? And I'll be happy with him. But I am really not looking forward to the hype surrounding whatever 2nd tier QB we take. Have you noticed we've heard and read nothing but great things about Kevin Kolb, Drew Stanton, and Trent Edwards lately? it's because they haven't been analyzed to death already.

Holy Christ, if Tui got a 5 or 6 year pass, and never did anything, can you imagine if we took Troy Smith in the 4th round? Everyone loves the backup QB, but if ours was Troy Smith, the hysteria would make Tui-mania look like the common cold.

[BigTron]

Nah, next year it'll be, "No need to take Brohm, QB's take too long to develop. Let's get a vet QB. Plus, we took Kolb last year, I'd really like to see what he can do. We should give him a shot. If he doesn't work out, then we can take Jimmy fucking Clausen in 2010."

Exactly if Kiffin cant coach the guy he drafts to be a good QB and gets him killed then we are screwed with Kiffin as HC. SO we might as well draft a QB and let our coach do his thing. IT will also prove Al Davis is letting Kiffin build a foundation for long term success. I think its the perfect time for a young franchise QB gamble. We have 1 decent QB on the roster who has a history of injuries and is coming off a very poor season. A young HC in his first year in the NFL. A young team that is trying ot bounce back to .500 and above. We can gamble right now because next year will most likely not end in the playoffs no matter what we do in the draft.

[Madturk]

With two of his former receivers slated to go high in the draft, I'm not sure if CJ would be Kiff's choice. I'm thinking JRuss would buy Kiffen two years with all that would be invested in him. He'd probably have a longer leash unless he totally fuggs up like his predecessor Shell. If CJ's the pick, then I'd have to say that's a typical Al knee jerk pick.

[Turo]

It's not hindsight, Jack, it's the MO for the last several years. There is a crew that never wants to take a shot on a top rookie QB, no matter what. And they won't want one next year, no matter what. They have Rich Gannon, Tom Brady, and the 2000 Baltimore Ravens as all the proof they need.

No matter what Russell and CJ do, they won't want a QB in the 1st. Because frankly, if someone isn't ready to take a shot on a QB after Rivers, Ben, Vince, Leinart, and Cutler, they never will. 1st round QB's have a darn good record lately.


It doesn't matter which QB is coming out, there'll always be a Tuiasosopo, or Walter, or McCown, or frigging Dreisbach, or someone else that ain't proved squat, that they'll want to 'give a chance' to.

I expect CJ to be stud, from Day 1. Why wouldn't he? And I'll be happy with him. But I am really not looking forward to the hype surrounding whatever 2nd tier QB we take. Have you noticed we've heard and read nothing but great things about Kevin Kolb, Drew Stanton, and Trent Edwards lately? it's because they haven't been analyzed to death already.

Holy Christ, if Tui got a 5 or 6 year pass, and never did anything, can you imagine if we took Troy Smith in the 4th round? Everyone loves the backup QB, but if ours was Troy Smith, the hysteria would make Tui-mania look like the common cold.

It seems a bit odd to me to not want to develop young QB talent, yet want to draft, draft and draft more young QB talent until we magically find one that will be a star from day one? Consider:

If we had drafted Matt Lienart, Vince Young or Jay Cutler last year and they got obliterated to the tune of 72 sacks, several hundred QB hits and a 2-14 record, you'd be calling for us to draft Jamarcus Russell or Brady Quinn this year? Or, would you be saying that they really should have a little extra time to develop and prosper in a modern NFL offensive scheme... ? You can't have it both ways, bro. If the difference is 'money' that a first-round pick would be making versus our relatively cheap third rounder (who was only a third rounder because of his senior-year shoulder injury), then we're only arguing the difference between being fucked financially or not.. and not arguing about the ability for either QB to succeed and win games. Therefore, that's irrelevant. So, what's it going to be? Develop young QB talent or no? Draft a new first round QB every year until one posts a winning record, no excuses for anyone, whatsoever?

Hey, I'm just sayin' is all.. :)

Late,

~T.

[hawaiianboy]

Nah, next year it'll be, "No need to take Brohm, QB's take too long to develop. Let's get a vet QB.


I'm not a big Brohm fan myself, but it's not real hard to imagine Darren McFadden playing the role of CJ and Brohm/Andre Woodson playing the roles of Quinn/JaMarcus in next years draft arguments... Of course, that would mean we sucked and are picking in the top 5 again, which I'm not a big fan of....


Basically for me, Russell/Quinn + say Sydney Rice > CJ + Drew Stanton, but we'll see what happens... With two ex-QB's at the head coach/O-coordinator spots, a new offense being put in place and a fresh feel to everything with the Kiffin hire, I really can't see a better time to plant and grow a QB...


As far as the poll, I'd choose the trade for Rodgers myself... It kills two birds with one stone... It serves to move Moss and pave the way for CJ and it brings in a young QB that is relatively familiar with Kiff's system...


Ideally for me at least, I'd rather draft JaMarcus, dump Moss for a draft pick, send a late pick to the Lions for BMW and manuever up from our second pick for either a TE or Lynch... but I have a feeling we'll take CJ and end up hoping that Walter can pull himself out of the gutter with a change in systems much the way Brees did in his 4th year in San Diego...

[hawaiianboy]

It seems a bit odd to me to not want to develop young QB talent, yet want to draft, draft and draft more young QB talent until we magically find one that will be a star from day one?


Should drafting Justin Fargas in RD 3 preclude us from drafting Adrian Peterson this year?... Should drafting McQuistan in RD3 prevent us from drafting Joe Thomas?... Should drafting Sam Williams in RD3 prevent us from drafting another strongside backer?... How's any of that different than drafting a QB just because we took Walter in RD3 a few years ago...


Third round picks are developmental picks IMO, if they hit fine, if not they're depth and you move on...

[massraider]

It seems a bit odd to me to not want to develop young QB talent, yet want to draft, draft and draft more young QB talent until we magically find one that will be a star from day one? Consider:

If we had drafted Matt Lienart, Vince Young or Jay Cutler last year and they got obliterated to the tune of 72 sacks, several hundred QB hits and a 2-14 record, you'd be calling for us to draft Jamarcus Russell or Brady Quinn this year? Or, would you be saying that they really should have a little extra time to develop and prosper in a modern NFL offensive scheme... ? You can't have it both ways, bro. If the difference is 'money' that a first-round pick would be making versus our relatively cheap third rounder (who was only a third rounder because of his senior-year shoulder injury), then we're only arguing the difference between being fucked financially or not.. and not arguing about the ability for either QB to succeed and win games. Therefore, that's irrelevant. So, what's it going to be? Develop young QB talent or no? Draft a new first round QB every year until one posts a winning record, no excuses for anyone, whatsoever?

Hey, I'm just sayin' is all.. :)

Late,

~T.


In order for this thesis to hold water, that I am trying to have it both ways, then somewhere in my posting history, is the smoking gun: Me saying we need a guy to start from Day 1. Or "Magically be a star from Day 1". You won't find it. I'd be fine with JaMarcus sitting on the bench for a year.

I want us to develop a young QB, yes. I want him to be our franchise guy.

If we had drafted Leinart, Young or Cutler last year, we'd be looking to see how he developed in his second year as a starter. We would still think highly enough of them to NOT draft a QB this year, because we took that player in the first round, and took him as our franchise guy.

Andrew Walter and all those other names I mentioned? They are lesser prospects. Walter was not drafted to be our franchise QB. If they thought that highly of him, they woulda taken him earlier. And Walter may very well turn out to be a good QB. But he hasn't shown any signs of it. At all.

I very much want to develop young QB talent. But just because we have young QB's, doesn't mean we have young QB talent.

I don't want to develop young, second-rate talent. With some half-assed vet QB 'insurance'.


Just because we draft Russell, doesn't mean we have to throw him to the wolves next year, and let him get sacked 70 times. Let Walter and McCown fight it out, I'm fine with that.

[CrossBones]

In order for this thesis to hold water, that I am trying to have it both ways, then somewhere in my posting history, is the smoking gun: Me saying we need a guy to start from Day 1. Or "Magically be a star from Day 1". You won't find it. I'd be fine with JaMarcus sitting on the bench for a year.

I want us to develop a young QB, yes. I want him to be our franchise guy.

If we had drafted Leinart, Young or Cutler last year, we'd be looking to see how he developed in his second year as a starter. We would still think highly enough of them to NOT draft a QB this year, because we took that player in the first round, and took him as our franchise guy.

Andrew Walter and all those other names I mentioned? They are lesser prospects. Walter was not drafted to be our franchise QB. If they thought that highly of him, they woulda taken him earlier. And Walter may very well turn out to be a good QB. But he hasn't shown any signs of it. At all.

I very much want to develop young QB talent. But just because we have young QB's, doesn't mean we have young QB talent.

I don't want to develop young, second-rate talent. With some half-assed vet QB 'insurance'.


Just because we draft Russell, doesn't mean we have to throw him to the wolves next year, and let him get sacked 70 times. Let Walter and McCown fight it out, I'm fine with that.Mass, stay out of my diary. Either that or stop reading my mind. :)

[Jack's sore libido]

Should drafting Justin Fargas in RD 3 preclude us from drafting Adrian Peterson this year?...

If Fargas was any good, yes.

Should drafting McQuistan in RD3 prevent us from drafting Joe Thomas?...

If McQuistan was any good, yes.

Should drafting Sam Williams in RD3 prevent us from drafting another strongside backer?...

Even more of a bad comparison, since your SSLBs are more likely to play defense and special teams regardless of their starting status.

How's any of that different than drafting a QB just because we took Walter in RD3 a few years ago...

To me the difference is the position. Walter plays QB. You either give him a chance to develop or you don't. Fargas, at RB, has shown what he can do, and it's not enough to preclude us from taking another guy. McQuistan, at guard, has shown us how bad he is. Williams, because he plays a position where depth means you play regardless, should not preclude us from drafting another guy.

But drafting another QB in Round 1 means you have given up on Walter as being anything more than a backup. So what if Walter hadn't had a shoulder injury at ASU and had been a late first-rounder? Would his draft status dictate that we give him another chance and pass on Russell? Or would we throw away the first-rounder who took a beating for us because the shiny new toy just hit Toys R Us?

[RaiderIVlife]

Every other option blows.

We'd have no choice but to hope for another shot at a top rated QB in next years draft.

Of course, everyone would pick those guys apart until they were nothing but 2nd day scrubs with no future in the league as well...

Given that set of options, I'd go with Josh McCown. He is athletic & young and he could compete with Andrew Walter - best man wins. Still, it does make you wonder about McCown when the previously QB hungry Cardinals (and now the Lions) dumped him.

I was tempted to say Stanton, etc. but if we go skill player round #1, we MUST address OL/DL with at least 2 Day-1 selections IMO.

If the Walter/McCown blow chuncks in 2007, we'll still be in position to take a QB next year. Still, I'm tired of waiting to draft a QB. I'd just assume take Russell now so that he starts his learning curve in 2007, still trade for McCown (or find a way to get Trent Green) and take McFadden in 2008.

That is ideal in my book.

[RaiderIVlife]

Thanks for the bright ray of sunshine Stepper. Man I feel like I did after watching the Elephant Man for the first time.

That's a "make your eyes glisten" movie isn't it? That is still maybe the sadest movie I've ever seen, though the House of Sand & Fog is pretty damn depressing as well.

The one that get's me every time is the scene (with no dialogue) in Saving Private Ryan where the poor Mid-West mom is about to get the news that 3 of her sons were KIA, and she just collapses on the porch. Man, heavy stuff.

I'm leaning towards Russell more & more. More & more. I think it was Raider007 that used a rating system, and if the Raiders rate him at say 95/100 and DJ is 99/100, I say we go Russell nonetheless.

This franchise needs a foundation at QB IMO. It's increasingly become a QB's league IMO. New England, Indy, Cincy are going to be legit contenders for the next 4 years in large part because of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Carson Palmer. If Jay Cutler & Phillip Rivers become the QB's that I think they will, then Denver & SD will as well.

The Raiders need the Big Gun at QB to have a shot IMO. Is Walter that guy?

[RaiderIVlife]

If Fargas was any good, yes.



If McQuistan was any good, yes.



Even more of a bad comparison, since your SSLBs are more likely to play defense and special teams regardless of their starting status.



To me the difference is the position. Walter plays QB. You either give him a chance to develop or you don't. Fargas, at RB, has shown what he can do, and it's not enough to preclude us from taking another guy. McQuistan, at guard, has shown us how bad he is. Williams, because he plays a position where depth means you play regardless, should not preclude us from drafting another guy.

But drafting another QB in Round 1 means you have given up on Walter as being anything more than a backup. So what if Walter hadn't had a shoulder injury at ASU and had been a late first-rounder? Would his draft status dictate that we give him another chance and pass on Russell? Or would we throw away the first-rounder who took a beating for us because the shiny new toy just hit Toys R Us?

Disagree. I'd compare Andrew Walter/JaMarcuss Russell to SD with Drew Bress/Phillip Rivers. SD was smart enough to draft a potential franchise QB when they had the chance. At that point, Brees had not "broken through" much like Walter, but he still retained the starting job for a couple of years over Rivers.

To me starting Walter over Russell is a win-win. First, this offensive line is BAD until proven innocent so let him take the reigns first. Secondly, perhaps Walter grows leaps & bounds in 2007 and does become a starting caliber QB. No issue for me. It gives us tremendous depth at the most important position in football - not to mention trade bait. I wouldn't mind seeing AW have an eye popping 2007. We could parlay that much the way that ATL parlayed Matt Schuab.

It's all good.

[RaiderIVlife]

Besides, if the Raiders pass on Russell and he becomes John Elway light, can you imagine the fall out?

[Turo]

If Fargas was any good, yes.



If McQuistan was any good, yes.



Even more of a bad comparison, since your SSLBs are more likely to play defense and special teams regardless of their starting status.



To me the difference is the position. Walter plays QB. You either give him a chance to develop or you don't. Fargas, at RB, has shown what he can do, and it's not enough to preclude us from taking another guy. McQuistan, at guard, has shown us how bad he is. Williams, because he plays a position where depth means you play regardless, should not preclude us from drafting another guy.

But drafting another QB in Round 1 means you have given up on Walter as being anything more than a backup. So what if Walter hadn't had a shoulder injury at ASU and had been a late first-rounder? Would his draft status dictate that we give him another chance and pass on Russell? Or would we throw away the first-rounder who took a beating for us because the shiny new toy just hit Toys R Us?

Precisely.



RIVL:

Well, that knife cuts both ways. What if we draft J-Rock, he is mediocre-to-bad, and Calvin Johnson or Brady Quinn light it up? Same problem, and it will all fall out depending on hindsight monday-morning quarterbacking.

In my mind, if the top three guys are just as highly thought of as one another, then we should manuever to be picking third and get the best value possible for the guy we chose.

[Madturk]

That's a "make your eyes glisten" movie isn't it? That is still maybe the sadest movie I've ever seen, though the House of Sand & Fog is pretty damn depressing as well.



Great movie with Ben Kingsley at his best. Those bath tub scenes with Jennifer Connolly weren't too shabby:eek:

[hawaiianboy]

If Fargas was any good, yes.


How is Fargas any different than Walter?... Like Walter, Fargas had a couple of good preseasons, even led the NFL in rushing stats... Like Walter, Fargas development was slowed due to his inability to stay healthy... Like Fargas, Walter has looked like second rate talent when given the chance to play....




If McQuistan was any good, yes.



If Walter was any good should apply as well...





To me the difference is the position. Walter plays QB. You either give him a chance to develop or you don't. Fargas, at RB, has shown what he can do, and it's not enough to preclude us from taking another guy. McQuistan, at guard, has shown us how bad he is.


I really don't get the differation here... What has Walter shown that gives the impression that he is any better a prospect than Fargas was or McQ is?... Why wouldn't the 'give him a chance to develop or you don't' hedge apply to McQ as well?... Seems to me if anything, the position of most importance should get the shorter leash...






But drafting another QB in Round 1 means you have given up on Walter as being anything more than a backup.


Maybe that's all he's meant to be... that's all he's shown to be for damn sure... Atlanta used a 3rd on Shaub to be a backup QB... Jax used a 4th on Garrad to be a backup QB... The Chargers used a 3rd last year on Whitehurst despite having Rivers... 3rd and 4th round picks are pretty commonly used on backup depth...

I mean should the Browns not take a QB at 3 because they took Charlie Frye a spot before we took Walter?...


So what if Walter hadn't had a shoulder injury at ASU and had been a late first-rounder?


May as well expand that speculative what if to what if he hasn't been hurt 4 straight years now... His getting picked late round one is no more relevant to me than Gibson being picked there or Brayton being picked there... The decision to pick a guy now should be based on 1) His play to date 2) his ability to stay healthy 3) his fit into the current scheme...


Would his draft status dictate that we give him another chance and pass on Russell? Or would we throw away the first-rounder who took a beating for us because the shiny new toy just hit Toys R Us?


Would you be arguing that Phillip Buchanon's draft status should have bought him more time with us?... If we had stayed pat at 7 two years ago and taken the underachieving Troy Williamson, would his draft status make him bulletproof to taking Calvin Johnson?...

[massraider]

Shoot, does drafting CJ mean we are giving up on Morant? Shouldn't Mr. August get his chance? :D

[CrossBones]

RIVL:

Well, that knife cuts both ways. What if we draft J-Rock, he is mediocre-to-bad, and Calvin Johnson or Brady Quinn light it up? Draft = Mother of All Crap Shoots.

You do your homework and take your shot. Win some, lose some.

It's high time this franchise takes a chance on a potential great QB. It's just time. But Al will do his usual and go with CJ because of his size and speed which is hard for the Dark Lord to pass up.

If that is what is going to happen...trade Moss to GB for Rodgers. That's my opinion.

[Jack's sore libido]

Disagree. I'd compare Andrew Walter/JaMarcuss Russell to SD with Drew Bress/Phillip Rivers.

Great. Then let's draft Russell and trade him for a buttload of picks from a team that will not be competing next year, like Cleveland, and draft Brady Quinn third.

Then we wind up starting Quinn for years to come, and we get a Shawne Merriman type next year, right?

Oh, of course we also have to have an LT somewhere, too.

Let's face it, the jury is still out on Rivers. In Oakland, would he have been near as successful as he was in San Diego?

[Jack's sore libido]

Shoot, does drafting CJ mean we are giving up on Morant? Shouldn't Mr. August get his chance? :D

Not necessarily.

Drafting CJ means we're only going to have Moss for one more year AT THE MOST, we get to trade Jerry Porter after this year and start Curry/Johnson with Gabriel/Morant as the 3/4 guys for the next 5 years.

[Jack's sore libido]

How is Fargas any different than Walter?... Like Walter, Fargas had a couple of good preseasons, even led the NFL in rushing stats... Like Walter, Fargas development was slowed due to his inability to stay healthy... Like Fargas, Walter has looked like second rate talent when given the chance to play....

Fargas hasn't looked all that good even when he has had the opportunity to play behind good lines.

What has Walter shown that gives the impression that he is any better a prospect than Fargas was or McQ is?... Why wouldn't the 'give him a chance to develop or you don't' hedge apply to McQ as well?... Seems to me if anything, the position of most importance should get the shorter leash...

To me the difference is that QBs take longer to develop, are more impacted by the system and playcalling (external factors out of their control) and are harder to judge. Whereas, with a guard you can see he either gets beat or doesn't ... with a QB you can't tell what kind of player he is with time to throw if he never has time to throw.

I mean should the Browns not take a QB at 3 because they took Charlie Frye a spot before we took Walter?...

If I was the Browns I might not take a QB.

Would you be arguing that Phillip Buchanon's draft status should have bought him more time with us?... If we had stayed pat at 7 two years ago and taken the underachieving Troy Williamson, would his draft status make him bulletproof to taking Calvin Johnson?...

More than one DB plays. More than one WR plays. So no, I would not.

However, I would say that if he'd shown any kind of skill at all the past two years, that spending a second-rounder on Grove should be enough reason not to spend another high pick on a center.

[Turo]

What is this logic and reason you speak of?

Hehe... =P

[RaiderIVlife]

Precisely.



RIVL:

Well, that knife cuts both ways. What if we draft J-Rock, he is mediocre-to-bad, and Calvin Johnson or Brady Quinn light it up? Same problem, and it will all fall out depending on hindsight monday-morning quarterbacking.

In my mind, if the top three guys are just as highly thought of as one another, then we should manuever to be picking third and get the best value possible for the guy we chose.

Here's the rub for me. The general consensus is that the Raiders erred in 2006 by taking Michael Huff over Leinert/Cutler. The general consensus now is that the Raiders should NOT pass on a potential franchise QB in 2007. Particularly when this team still employs Randy Moss, Jerry Porter and Ronald Curry.

I think the Raiders will get pilloried more if they pass on Russell and he become a star elsewhere than if they pass on CJ and he becomes a star elsewhere.

I think this is the perfect time for the Raiders to roll the dice on a franchise QB - I'll just add the caveat that unless the Raiders are convinced that Russell/Quinn are busts waiting to happen.

[007]

Ideally for me at least, I'd rather draft JaMarcus, dump Moss for a draft pick, send a late pick to the Lions for BMW and manuever up from our second pick for either a TE or Lynch... but I have a feeling we'll take CJ and end up hoping that Walter can pull himself out of the gutter with a change in systems much the way Brees did in his 4th year in San Diego...

Just so everyone is clear:

This is the epitmoe of how I feel a perfect draft would go.

Nicely done.

[SoCalRaider]

Since the Calvin Johnson at #1 bandwagon seems to be picking up some steam, I'm trying to wrap my head around it and reach some kind of comfort zone... I still believe taking a WR at 1 with no established QB is putting the jackass before the cart, but putting that aside and assuming Al wants the kid at one, what would be your LONG TERM choice at QB with CJ now able to leap tall buildings wearing a Raider uni???...

It's hard for me to conceive of putting "long term choice at QB" and "Al Davis' Raiders" in the same sentence. From my understanding of the Al Davis philosophy, there is no long term solution until a player has proven himself to some extent at the NFL level.

If Davis rolls the dice on CJ, all it will tell me is that solving the long-term solution at QB is not Davis' main concern. Hell, the guy is pushing 80 and battling his health. Davis doesn't just want to win now... Davis absolutely has to win now.

I really think Davis is content with passing on the overhead of devloping a QB and instead expecting acquire a somewhat established veteran... and to let Kiffin take that QB from average/good to good/great. I anticipate Davis will (continue to) do this with every FA/trade class until he gets his next Plunkett/Hostelter/Gannon.

For what it's worth, I'm not implying I agree with this philosophy. That's just how I see it based on Davis' age, health, and football philosophy.

[007]

Good post SoCal.

I'll say this:

If Al Davis passes on JaMarcus, a QB born to be a Raider...He won't ever draft a QB while he's alive, IMo.

[CrossBones]

I think you pretty much nailed it SolCal. And frankly I'm not going to be the least bit surprised if the Raiders opt for Calvin Johnson at #1. Don't agree with it but that is the way this organization has operated for almost 50 years.

[NIPS]

QB is the position to me anyways, that takes the longest time to develop a player, typically 2-3 years. RB's and WR's can come right out of the box, sorta the "plug & play" if you will

Take Russell and lets begin this transformation process and be done with all this bullshit QB's crap we've been going through the last 4 years

Moss will be fine this year, and iuf he bolts next year, no big deal.. We still got some big targets in Porter, Madsen, and lets not forget about Curry and Gabriel

Here's something to consider

If Russell lights it up, what WR FA wouldnt want to come here and play?

Russell would make a grerat selling piece to and FA WR's

I'll pass on CJ thank you, the only thing....

I wish there was someway we could still get Russell and fuck the Bucs over on CJ

[Jack's sore libido]

I wish there was someway we could still get Russell and fuck the Bucs over on CJ

Depends on whether Cleveland wants CJ at all.

If they do, we take CJ, then trade him down to the Browns and use the 3 pick on Russell.

[Turo]

If Fargas was any good, yes.



If McQuistan was any good, yes.



Even more of a bad comparison, since your SSLBs are more likely to play defense and special teams regardless of their starting status.



To me the difference is the position. Walter plays QB. You either give him a chance to develop or you don't. Fargas, at RB, has shown what he can do, and it's not enough to preclude us from taking another guy. McQuistan, at guard, has shown us how bad he is. Williams, because he plays a position where depth means you play regardless, should not preclude us from drafting another guy.

But drafting another QB in Round 1 means you have given up on Walter as being anything more than a backup. So what if Walter hadn't had a shoulder injury at ASU and had been a late first-rounder? Would his draft status dictate that we give him another chance and pass on Russell? Or would we throw away the first-rounder who took a beating for us because the shiny new toy just hit Toys R Us?

Here's the rub for me. The general consensus is that the Raiders erred in 2006 by taking Michael Huff over Leinert/Cutler. The general consensus now is that the Raiders should NOT pass on a potential franchise QB in 2007. Particularly when this team still employs Randy Moss, Jerry Porter and Ronald Curry.

I think the Raiders will get pilloried more if they pass on Russell and he become a star elsewhere than if they pass on CJ and he becomes a star elsewhere.

I think this is the perfect time for the Raiders to roll the dice on a franchise QB - I'll just add the caveat that unless the Raiders are convinced that Russell/Quinn are busts waiting to happen.

This year, more than any other in recent memory, feels like a huge roll of the dice. I can't quite put my finger on it, and it sure seems irrational of me, but I can't escape the feeling that if we fuck it up this year, we're going to be in the toilet for a long, long time. Dunno, maybe that's just a reflection of 'me' right now. LOL. Too much pressure! I just hope like mad that whomever we pick will blossom into a league-dominating force, and that the other 2 "top" guys suck it, hard.

[BigTron]

This year, more than any other in recent memory, feels like a huge roll of the dice. I can't quite put my finger on it, and it sure seems irrational of me, but I can't escape the feeling that if we fuck it up this year, we're going to be in the toilet for a long, long time. Dunno, maybe that's just a reflection of 'me' right now. LOL. Too much pressure! I just hope like mad that whomever we pick will blossom into a league-dominating force, and that the other 2 "top" guys suck it, hard.

I was thinking the same thing and i realized that having a guy like JR here helps even before he plays or starts. If we have the future QB in place then the media will give us some room and say we are a young up and coming team etc. Next season free agents and our own players will want to be here. J-Rock will give the Raiders something we havent had in a long time, a highly regarded young QB and HOPE. :D

[RHC]

That's a "make your eyes glisten" movie isn't it? That is still maybe the sadest movie I've ever seen, though the House of Sand & Fog is pretty damn depressing as well.

The one that get's me every time is the scene (with no dialogue) in Saving Private Ryan where the poor Mid-West mom is about to get the news that 3 of her sons were KIA, and she just collapses on the porch. Man, heavy stuff. Dying Young.

Requiem for a Dream.

My Life.

[Madturk]

"Ok who cried when Ole Yeller died, c'mon"

Turo, your avatar is very disturbing, I hope that's not you dude

[Turo]

"Ok who cried when Ole Yeller died, c'mon"

Turo, your avatar is very disturbing, I hope that's not you dude

It's about as close to being me as your avatar is to being you, I'm supposing.

;)

[Rupert]

It's about as close to being me as your avatar is to being you, I'm supposing.

;)

You mean you're not a man? :eek:

[Raider Nation]

Since we're on the topic of hindsight... albeit 4 pages ago, wouldn't it be nice to have Leinart on the roster and already be in contract negotiations with Calvin Johnson?

But I digress...



I agree with others who say you don't build a team around a WR, which is what you're going to do with the #1 overall pick in a draft... build your team around him. It would be one thing if the Raiders were a couple of players away from being a perennial playoff team, but that simply isn't the case. Anybody who says otherwise is delusional. At some point, after having high 1st round pick after high 1st round pick, you have to hitch yourself to a franchise QB if the situation warrants it. Russell's got all the measurables and ability, IMO, that make him worth the gamble as a franchise QB.

Look at it this way... if Young, Leinart, and Cutler were coming out this year with Russell and Quinn IMO the debate would be between Young and Russell as the top QB, then Leinart, Quinn, and Cutler. Cutler would be a late-1st in this scenario. But again, that's just my opinion.

Johnson is an unbelievable talent, make no mistake. But I just don't buy the "draft WR high" philosophy. The glory years of the 49ers were built around an offensive scheme and the quarterback position. New England's built around a power running game/spread passing scheme and Tom Brady. Indianapolis is built around a base 3-WR set shift offense and Peyton Manning. The cornerstones of these teams are the QB's and the scheme, not the WR's. Are guys like Jerry Rice and Marvin Harrison Hall of Fame guys? Absolutely. But take Joe Montana, Steve Young, and Peyton Manning off of those teams and tell me how many Super Bowl rings Rice and Harrison would have. I'd guess none.

I'm 100% behind drafting JaMarcus Russell. Sit him the 1st 6 games and see how Walter does as the starter. The 2nd half of Oakland's schedule looks to be very tough, so it's quite conceivable that Russell starts to see action somewhere around weeks 8 -- 10. This is still a team that most likely finishes below .500 next year (I'm guessing 6-10) so they'll still have a pretty high draft pick (anywhere from #9 -- #14) to take an OT, RB (uh, I'd like a McFadden please), DT, or even WR then if Moss is finally released.

[massraider]

The bandwagon is nearing 100% capacity!! We're switching to a modified school bus to hold all the Raider fans, people. At the next stop, you'll notice a few more folks piling off the CJ bandwagon. BigTron, welcome aboard!

Whoop, there goes SoCal on his Adrain Peterson unicycle. Way to stick to your guns, mate!


If we do wind up with a QB and a WR on Day 1, I'm a lot more excited about the 2nd tier WR's than the 2nd tier QB's.

[jatfly]

I may have just joined the bandwagon too massraider!
I can't see Al Davis drafting a QB #1 overall, is CJ the best player in the draft??? if that is the case, Then we need to take him.

I think the best draft is take the best availible player not to fill a need.

I would have liked to see McCown come here last year to beat out Brooks you know it would have been easier then beating out Kitna..........but I guess he wasn't thinking since he signed with Detriot.....

I can't remember but maybe someone can find the article from last year on why McCown didn't come here.

[Jack's sore libido]

The glory years of the 49ers were built around an offensive scheme and the quarterback position. New England's built around a power running game/spread passing scheme and Tom Brady.

And where were Joe Montana and Tom Brady drafted?

Just sayin' ...

[Raider Nation]

And where were Joe Montana and Tom Brady drafted?

Just sayin' ...

And that's an absoultely valid point. But it still doesn't address the benefit of taking a WR over a QB at #1 when that pick is absolutely going to be a cornerstone of a franchise nevermind the fact that regardless of draft position those offenses were/are tailored around the QB position, not the WR position.

[hawaiianboy]

Well Joe Montana won two Super Bowls with 10th round pick Dwight Clark as his number one receiver, and Brady won a couple with 8th round pick Troy Brown as his go to WR... Neither of those teams exactly built their teams around high picked receivers either...




With our awful misses to hits ratio on free agent QB's and second tier drafted QB's, personally I'm ready to try something different and draft a first tier QB.... To me when you're looking under rocks at the likes of Jeff Garcia, Josh McCown and Tim Rattay and hoping that your current QB that has been plagued by inconsistency and injury since graduating high school is finally going to have the light go on, logic and reason dictate that maybe you have a serious problem...

[Madturk]

Well we can take solace in the fact that Drew Bledsoe officially announced his retirement.

If there ever was an offseaon to roll the dice on a QB, this would be the one. I really think that the old man feels that there's another Gannon or Plunkett reclamation project out there in the 3 for $1.00 bin.

[R4Life]

Well Joe Montana won two Super Bowls with 10th round pick Dwight Clark as his number one receiver, and Brady won a couple with 8th round pick Troy Brown as his go to WR... Neither of those teams exactly built their teams around high picked receivers either...



Montana also won two superbowls with Rice #1, who made him look better than he was.

[massraider]

When discussing these late round franchise QB's, we have to go back 8 years, and 25 years to get to Brady and Montana.

When looking for late round stud WR's, we have to go all the way back to......Marques Colston.

If you gotta picka position to get lucky on, and find a diamond in the rough, you won't find a harder one than QB. And might not find an easier one than WR.

[Raidermania12]

When looking for late round stud WR's, we have to go all the way back to......Marques Colston.

he's an elite WR? WTF?:confused: I dont see him as even counting in this when we're talking brady and montana on the qb side. When was the last time you had a jerry rice, randy moss, marvin harrison, tim brown, Terrel Owens level wr drafted that low? lowest i can think of was 3rd rounder hines ward and steve smith. but day 2 pick? tough one to name there.

[BigTron]

The bandwagon is nearing 100% capacity!! We're switching to a modified school bus to hold all the Raider fans, people. At the next stop, you'll notice a few more folks piling off the CJ bandwagon. BigTron, welcome aboard!

Whoop, there goes SoCal on his Adrain Peterson unicycle. Way to stick to your guns, mate!


If we do wind up with a QB and a WR on Day 1, I'm a lot more excited about the 2nd tier WR's than the 2nd tier QB's.

Haha. Im a bandwagon whore. I just want this shit to be over already i feel like a different person every time i post something... JR, CJ, AP, BQ i can make an arguement for all of them and against all of them.

I still rank them:

Calvin Johnson- im not buying the hype becasue i watched his college career and its not hype, he is that good.

Adrian Peterson- Talk about need. A monster RB would instantly give the line help and more importantly, this is the playa the defense would select if they could pick it IMO. Adrian Peterson would be our own version of LT, LJ etc. and a great zone runner. He claims his vision is his best quality. Lamountains comments are pushing me back on my original wagon. I just dont think its gonna happen...

JR. I like him way more than BQ. Im nervous about drafting a QB #1 overall when i think AP and CJ are better players who will be closer to the top of their position in the NFL. JR is a scary gamble, but sometimes people who gamble get rich. I will agree that Adrew Walter is not a guy we should "COUNT ON" to be the future. We need depth at QB in any scenario.


We need just about every position on offense other than FB, 3rd WR and back-up RB.

[CrossBones]

With our awful misses to hits ratio on free agent QB's and second tier drafted QB's, personally I'm ready to try something different and draft a first tier QB.... Couldn't agree more.

Hey let me move over and you can get into the Bonesmobile. It's just time the Oakland Raiders take a stab at a QB who has more potential than Rickey Dudley or Robert Gallery. Sure we're pissin' in the wind but it'll be fun to dream for 2 1/2 more weeks. Then it's back to reality. Calvin Johnson it is.

[Jack's sore libido]

Well Joe Montana won two Super Bowls with 10th round pick Dwight Clark as his number one receiver, and Brady won a couple with 8th round pick Troy Brown as his go to WR... Neither of those teams exactly built their teams around high picked receivers either...

And the 49ers won 3 more with first-round pick Jerry Rice, and the Pats won two more with second-round pick Deion Branch as his go-to guy.

[Jack's sore libido]

When discussing these late round franchise QB's, we have to go back 8 years, and 25 years to get to Brady and Montana.

When looking for late round stud WR's, we have to go all the way back to......Marques Colston.

No ... that's just as far as the poster who brought them up went back.

We could talk about Drew Brees, who was picked right about where the Raiders are picking in the second round this year.

We could talk about Marc Bulger, who was picked the same round as Tom Brady.

There's 64 starting WRs in the league, and probaly 80 who play regularly. Of course there's going to be more late-round hits at WR than at QB.

It's not that I'm against taking Russell. I'm not. I'm just against the idea of not taking Johnson just because he plays WR.

[Turo]

Totally agree, great post.

For me, the question that needs to be answered is.. how big of a gap is there between the respective talent levels of Russell/Quinn vs. Stanton/Edwards/Kolb/Beck, et al ... and between Calvin Johnson and the 2nd/3rd round WR talent?

Personally, I think there's a bigger drop off from Calvin Johnson to, say, Sidney Rice/Dwayne Jarrett and a chasm of talent drop off to rounds 3 and later on.. than there is from Russell/Quinn to the rest of the pack, especially rounds 3 and 4 for Qbs.

That being said, I'm not particularly jihaddist about either guy (today). I'd just like to see us trade down and grab whoever falls to us.. because I don't think there's a significant enough talent gap between any of the top 3 guys to care. And beyond that, the next 15 or so guys are all about the same to me.

[massraider]

Totally agree, great post.

For me, the question that needs to be answered is.. how big of a gap is there between the respective talent levels of Russell/Quinn vs. Stanton/Edwards/Kolb/Beck, et al ... and between Calvin Johnson and the 2nd/3rd round WR talent?
.

I ask a 2nd question: Where is it more important to have the better talent, at QB or WR?

I'll take great QB and average WR over average QB and great WR any day. It's the difference between the Cardinals and the Pats.

[SoCalRaider]

The bandwagon is nearing 100% capacity!! We're switching to a modified school bus to hold all the Raider fans, people. At the next stop, you'll notice a few more folks piling off the CJ bandwagon. BigTron, welcome aboard!

Whoop, there goes SoCal on his Adrain Peterson unicycle. Way to stick to your guns, mate!

:D

This joyride on the Peterson unicycle is a walk in the park compared to the belligerent Raider bandwagon these last few years...

[massraider]

:D

This joyride on the Peterson unicycle is a walk in the park compared to the belligerent Raider bandwagon these last few years...

If AP turns into LT you'll be the only one to say I-told-you-so. A powerful position. I'm sure other bandwagon jumpers will try and claim AP, but I got your back.

[Turo]

I ask a 2nd question: Where is it more important to have the better talent, at QB or WR?

I'll take great QB and average WR over average QB and great WR any day. It's the difference between the Cardinals and the Pats.

I don't necessarily disagree there, no. But that's kinda making the assumption that a 2nd-4th round QB is incapable of being a great QB, and a 1st round QB is incapable of being an average player? Which I guess is where I was going with my 'comparative' post. I don't see a huge increase in risk to go with QB's slated to go in rounds 2-4 versus round 1, but I do see a huge dropoff in talent at the WR position from CJ.

But, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps the Raiders do see a huge difference between Russell/Quinn and the 2nd-4th round QBs and not as much difference between CJ and his counterparts. I dunno. I guess we'll see in a few years. Heh.

[hawaiianboy]

Personally, I think there's a bigger drop off from Calvin Johnson to, say, Sidney Rice/Dwayne Jarrett and a chasm of talent drop off to rounds 3 and later on.. than there is from Russell/Quinn to the rest of the pack, especially rounds 3 and 4 for Qbs.



I think this is where most people fundamentally disagree... Myself, I really didn't see all that much of a dramatic on field difference between Calvin and Jarrett... IMO, you have ten WR's in this draft that could carry a first round grade, with five of them probably dropping to the second round just on the basis of supply and demand...

Where as outside of Quinn/Russell, I think Stanton should carry a third round grade and the rest should be rated second day... I actually like Kevin Kolb, but he's a long ways from being ready to be a solid 2 much less a starter IMO... Trent Edwards is still benefitting from his high school steam because he sure hasn't done anything noteworthy as a collegiate player... Edwards, Stanton, and Kolb all are going to go sooner than they should because like always, the demands for developable QB's outweigh the supply... Basically Edwards, Stanton and Kolb are to QB's what Paul Williams, Chris Baker and Courtney Taylor are to WR's... JMO though...

[Turo]

Fair enough. We'll have to time-capsule this thread for 3-4 years and dig it back up to see how things turned out. :)